28th of Octomber. Another year that WG ignores the strugle of Grecce against AXIS.

[Anthoniusii]

28TH of Octomber Italy invades Greece hoping for a fast victory. Instead in the fololowing months it has the most catastrophic defeats. That forces Germany to postpone the Barbarossa Campaign for about 3 months exposing its troops to the harsh Russian winter, As a Russian historian wrote "with out Greece there would be no Moscow nore Stalingrand" . For 5 years i make the same question to WG. Why ignores Greece by creating a Destroyer with parts that already exist in made ships that has in its disposal. A British hull with 2x4 Bristish torpedos and 4 German guns (heavier than the British used) plus 4 x1 37mm AA german guns and here it is. King George Greek Destroyer that it was the 1st Destroyer that in 1939 equipted with radar worldwide before it  invendor give the poatern to Marconi company for further development. What are the reasons of such ignorance?

1. Is the reason that Soviet Union congratulated Mussolini for his invasion ?
2. Is the reason that a Hybrid (a ship with weapons of two nations) wont "sell"?

Please tell us.

[fumtu]

3 minutes ago, Anthoniusii said:

That forces Germany to postpone the Barbarossa Campaign for about 3 months exposing its troops to the harsh Russian winter, As a Russian historian wrote "with out Greece there would be no Moscow nore Stalingrand".

 

That myth is long busted. 

 

3 minutes ago, Anthoniusii said:

Why ignores Greece by creating a Destroyer with parts that already exist in made ships that has in its disposal. A British hull with 2x4 Bristish torpedos and 4 German guns (heavier than the British used) plus 4 x1 37mm AA german guns and here it is. King George Greek Destroyer that it was the 1st Destroyer that in 1939 equipted with radar worldwide before it  invendor give the poatern to Marconi company for further development. What are the reasons of such ignorance?

 

128mm to 120mm doesn't mean much unless it has 1/4 HE pen rule. But adding Vasilissa Olga to the game would be a great thing considering her war history and how much respect her captain and crew had from RN. 

 

3 minutes ago, Anthoniusii said:

Is the reason that Soviet Union congratulated Mussolini for his invasion ?

 

What? You are believing that because of this there is no Greek ship in the game so far? That is so ridicules. 

 

3 minutes ago, Anthoniusii said:

Is the reason that a Hybrid (a ship with weapons of two nations) wont "sell"?

 

Errr .... that is not what hybrid is. Also there are already several ships in the game that have combination of hull and armament from different nations, like Tallinn, Huanghe and (in one hull option) Harekaze.  

[BoxOfAngryBees]

besides the historical thrashing from fumtu, also consider this from wedgies perspective

Theres a long list of navies and ship lines that "should" be in the game, if you have an eye on their historical significance. Wedgie also doesnt pride itself in historic gameplay or history in general, other than a historical section on their website.

 

What your doing here is telling - not asking - a toy company to, after they've created a toy ship product line, create 15 more because of reasons that have nothing to do with their business model or intentions with the product line, but do have to do with principles you feel are important and freely attribute to said toy company.

 

Dont mean to be a doinker about it but thats basically what your doing

[Anthoniusii]

1 hour ago, fumtu said:

 

That myth is long busted. 

 

 

128mm to 120mm doesn't mean much unless it has 1/4 HE pen rule. But adding Vasilissa Olga to the game would be a great thing considering her war history and how much respect her captain and crew had from RN. 

 

 

What? You are believing that because of this there is no Greek ship in the game so far? That is so ridicules. 

 

 

Errr .... that is not what hybrid is. Also there are already several ships in the game that have combination of hull and armament from different nations, like Tallinn, Huanghe and (in one hull option) Harekaze.  

No ..History Chanel has different opinion.

No because Greek Destroyers were realy unique ships. Dr Santorinis in 1937 to 1938 invanded RADAR and placed it in Valieus Georgios for testing. British bought the patern (Greece had not the fund for mass production ) and developefd teh radar we all know. Yes Greek Navy has a ling tradition of creating hybrid ships. The heavier German main and AA guns had one purpose to cause damages to Turkish Destroyers in traditional gun fightings! But the torpedos remained British.

1 hour ago, BoxOfAngryBees said:

besides the historical thrashing from fumtu, also consider this from wedgies perspective

Theres a long list of navies and ship lines that "should" be in the game, if you have an eye on their historical significance. Wedgie also doesnt pride itself in historic gameplay or history in general, other than a historical section on their website.

 

What your doing here is telling - not asking - a toy company to, after they've created a toy ship product line, create 15 more because of reasons that have nothing to do with their business model or intentions with the product line, but do have to do with principles you feel are important and freely attribute to said toy company.

 

Dont mean to be a doinker about it but thats basically what your doing

I agree... Like the Polish Destroyer there are a bunch of historical ships that should be in game. Instead we have King Kong or Transporters cloned ships agains and again.

From History Chanel..page

History Channel deifies Greece: One of the four reasons the Nazis lost.

If the Germans had not needed to help the Italians invade Greece, they would have caught the cold in Russia and Stalingrad would not exist.

1: The 4 reasons why the Nazi armors sank in World War II and did not carry out their plan to the end, recorded History.

Greece was one of them, as the Germans did not need to help the Italians invade Greece, they would have caught the cold in Russia and there would be no Stalingrad.

1: The evacuation in Dunkirk

The "Dunkirk Miracle" is one of the mythical chapters in the history of World War II! We are talking about the bold rescue of more than 338,000 British, French and Belgian forces from the shores of a French port, at a time when German forces were about to blockade them. The evacuation, which took place in May and June 1940, also raises one of the most contentious questions: Why, with the help of allied forces, did the German Punzer units stop advancing for more than three days, giving the British time to organize the evacuation armada? The infamous order was given because Hitler really wanted to let the troops escape and thus facilitate peace talks with the British. Hitler reportedly told his inner circle that he wanted to preserve the British Empire. Of course, Hitler wanted to justify what actually turned into a military blunder. Historians agree that a possible Allied counterattack and concerns about the suitability of the ground for German tanks reinforced the decision to halt the advance. Erich von Manstein, one of Germany's top commanders, called it one of Hitler's "most critical mistakes."

2: Defeat in the battle of Britain

During the Battle of Britain, the RAF successfully repulsed the Luftwaffe, saving the United Kingdom from a possible Nazi invasion. France had so far fallen to the Germans and the fear was that Hitler was on the verge of consolidating his sovereignty in Europe. As Hitler's historian and biographer Ian Kershaw notes: "People believed that victory was imminent. "Only Britain stood in the way." While the Luftwaffe was undoubtedly a formidable force, the British had an invaluable weapon in their hands: the Dowding system, the world's first integrated air defense network, where alerts about incoming enemy aircraft were communicated via a telephone network by a series of stations. . This gave the RAF a significant advantage during the Battle of Britain.

3: The invasion in  Greece

In October 1940, when the Italian fascist Mussolini invaded Greece, Italian troops used Albania as a base for their attack. However, the Greeks counterattacked strongly and pushed the Italians behind the border in Albania. With the help of the RAF and the British ground forces, the Greek troops crushed the Italians who had to be rescued by the Germans. Hitler's intervention came in April of the following year - at a critical juncture, as the Germans prepared to launch Operation Barbarossa, the monumental invasion of the Soviet Union. Hitler's invasion was successful, with Axis troops advancing on Athens on 27 April. The Nazi leader later denounced the move, believing that the delay in the "Barbarossa" invasion of Athens was an important reason why the Germans later fell into such a quagmire in Russia. According to one of Hitler's confidants, "if the Italians had not attacked Greece and needed our help, the war would have taken a different course. We could catch the Russian cold for weeks and conquer Leningrad and Moscow. "There would be no Stalingrad."

4: The failure of "Operation Barbarossa"

The Nazis launched Operation Barbarossa on June 22, 1941. Stalin was surprised by the move, which opened a 1,800-mile front and proved to be the largest military operation in history. The attack on the Soviet Union was a much more bitter and hateful operation, with Slavs, Jews, Bolsheviks and others being considered Germany's racial and ideological enemies. Hitler was convinced that the Soviet Union would soon fall, saying that "all we have to do is kick in the front door and the whole rotten Russian edifice will collapse." He miscalculated both the enormous size of the invading country and the number of soldiers his men would face. The fighting was fierce, with horrific war crimes committed by the Einsatzgruppen, SS death squads that would slaughter civilians and incite pogroms against Jews in local communities. Controversial strategic decisions of Hitler and a delayed attack on Moscow gave the Soviets the opportunity to strengthen their defense and retaliate with patriotic fervor for "Mother Russia". Then came the harsh weather, with the roads turning to muddy rivers during the fall, before the landscape froze from a devastatingly harsh winter.

[fumtu]

2 minutes ago, Anthoniusii said:

No ...Guardian in its yesteraday internet page includes the Greek primary victory against Italian on one of the 10 crusial points of the entire WW2!

 

Guardian said that! Really! I bet that their top 10 crucial points of entire of ww2 are not the same as mine. But I guess if newspaper told something than it must be true. Wonder if article is result of long study and does it have references to whole literature used to get to final conclusion.

 

On the serious note, Italy-Greece war in 1940 had impact on ww2 for sure, but myth that Yugoslavia-Greece campaign in 1940 is reason why German lost war in the East is long busted, that is simply not true.

 

7 minutes ago, Anthoniusii said:

No because Greek Destroyers were realy unique ships. Dr Santorinis in 1937 to 1938 invanded RADAR and placed it in Valieus Georgios for testing. British bought the patern (Greece had not the fund for mass production ) and developefd teh radar we all know. Yes Greek Navy has a ling tradition of creating hybrid ships. The heavier German main and AA guns had one purpose to cause damages to Turkish Destroyers in traditional gun fightings! But the torpedos remained British.

 

Again, that does not matter at all, that is not what is considered as hybrid ship in this game. If WG want to add Greek ship, they will not look into such things, they will look into what stats ships have and what kind an armament and balance ship around that. In this case they might give it a German HE pen because German guns but just as same they might not. Everything depend on waht WG wants from that ship and what kind of gimmick they have in mind.  

[Karasu_Browarszky]

Traditionally, Greece and Russia have been close due to a lot of shared history etc... but let's not going to the particulars there.

 

I suspect maybe there aren't that many Greek players and/or suitable ships that could be fitted in the Pan-European tree. Also, note that it seems lately WG has kind of abandoned the Pan-European tree as the Dutch navy was also separated into its own tree.

 

On principle I agree that this is a major event in WW2 history and completely ignoring it is deplorable because we know WG rotates many 'historical missions' as historically important dates pop up in the calendar.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

3 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

On the serious note, Italy-Greece war in 1940 had impact on ww2 for sure, but myth that Yugoslavia-Greece campaign in 1940 is reason why German lost war in the East is long busted, that is simply not true.

 

 

 

Okay, so. What then delayed Operation Barbarossa by three months?

[MementoMori_6030]

Vor 5 Minuten, Karasu_Hidesuke sagte:

Okay, so. What then delayed Operation Barbarossa by three months?

When you are living in The Shire, why would you want to invade Mordor?

[Anthoniusii]

7 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

Guardian said that! Really! I bet that their top 10 crucial points of entire of ww2 are not the same as mine. But I guess if newspaper told something than it must be true. Wonder if article is result of long study and does it have references to whole literature used to get to final conclusion.

 

On the serious note, Italy-Greece war in 1940 had impact on ww2 for sure, but myth that Yugoslavia-Greece campaign in 1940 is reason why German lost war in the East is long busted, that is simply not true.

 

 

Again, that does not matter at all, that is not what is considered as hybrid ship in this game. If WG want to add Greek ship, they will not look into such things, they will look into what stats ships have and what kind an armament and balance ship around that. In this case they might give it a German HE pen because German guns but just as same they might not. Everything depend on waht WG wants from that ship and what kind of gimmick they have in mind.  

My mistake not Guardian but History chanel. READ MY edited last post above.

4 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

Traditionally, Greece and Russia have been close due to a lot of shared history etc... but let's not going to the particulars there.

 

I suspect maybe there aren't that many Greek players and/or suitable ships that could be fitted in the Pan-European tree. Also, note that it seems lately WG has kind of abandoned the Pan-European tree as the Dutch navy was also separated into its own tree.

 

On principle I agree that this is a major event in WW2 history and completely ignoring it is deplorable because we know WG rotates many 'historical missions' as historically important dates pop up in the calendar.

True...instead we see fictional ships even space ships!

3 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

 

Okay, so. What then delayed Operation Barbarossa by three months?

Yes actually 52 crusial days including the air invasion in Crete. If those German airborne forces would not destroyed in Crete the Barbarossa campaign would be different.

52 days were the battles time. But the movement from Polland to Bulgaria and back to Polland costed another month.

[Ocsimano18]

6 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

 

Okay, so. What then delayed Operation Barbarossa by three months?

It had a key role in the defense of Moscow, which boosted the moral of the Soviets, destroying the myth of invicible German army. Wars are also fought in the minds of people, not only on the terrain. The Soviets could easily fall into disarray if they loose the capital.

[Hunny]

9 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

 

Okay, so. What then delayed Operation Barbarossa by three months?

Why would a 3 month delay be the cause that german lost?

 

1 minute ago, Ocsimano18 said:

It had a key role in the defense of Moscow, which boosted the moral of the Soviets, destroying the myth of invicible German army. Wars are also fought in the minds of people, not only on the terrain. The Soviets could easily fall into disarray if they loose the capital.

Russia have lost Moscov before and that did not make them lose or become disarray, why would it that time?

[albin322]

5 minutes ago, Hunny said:

Russia have lost Moscov before and that did not make them lose or become disarray, why would it that time?

+ that they had already moved a large part of the military industry to the ural mountains

[Karasu_Browarszky]

14 minutes ago, Ocsimano18 said:

It had a key role in the defense of Moscow, which boosted the moral of the Soviets, destroying the myth of invicible German army. Wars are also fought in the minds of people, not only on the terrain. The Soviets could easily fall into disarray if they loose the capital.

 

12 minutes ago, Hunny said:

Why would a 3 month delay be the cause that german lost?

 

"The European Winter of 1941–42 was the coldest of the twentieth century."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Moscow
 

Hmm.. I seem to have yet one of my many distant cousins in the thick of it.. with the 2nd Panzer Army.

 

Quote

 

Russia have lost Moscov before and that did not make them lose or become disarray, why would it that time?

 

That.. is a very good question. The Soviets had started to relocate from Moscow to Siberia, but the fact remains that Moscow was the administrative and logistical hub for the Soviet Union. It might have been difficult to prevent the front from collapsing if the Germans had taken Moscow, especially that early in the War.

 

What I'm saying is. Situation was different from what it was in Napoleonic Times, because of technology changes and the fact the in the Patriotic War (Napoleon's campaign), Moscow was not a capital.

[KillStealBoss]

1 hour ago, fumtu said:

Errr .... that is not what hybrid is. Also there are already several ships in the game that have combination of hull and armament from different nations, like Tallinn, Huanghe and (in one hull option) Harekaze.  

Also the Haarlem has Room guns, same with the T10 Gouden Leeuw having Scharnhorst guns, Błyskawica being Polish ship with Swedish guns and the hull built in UK, ZF-6 being a French built hull but armament is German, Harekaze II with German DD guns.

[fumtu]

18 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

Okay, so. What then delayed Operation Barbarossa by three months?

 

For 3 months? Hmmm ... Operation was set to start on 15th May and it actually started on 22nd June. That is not three months, isn't it? It is actually a 38 day delay. And it has more with general logistic issues than Balkan campaign which impact was really small. Still Balkan campaign had no difference at all to outcome of 1941 campaign in the East, just as it was not winter, which did impact military operations, that caused failure to win war against Soviets in 1941.  

[Anthoniusii]

Please all READ my edited post with History Chanel refernces in 4 crusial points why Germans lost WW2.

Count..German Troops leave Polland that are ready to invade Soviet Union to Bulgaria and prepair their attack.

The Attack to Serbia that collapses in 48 hours.

The attack to Greece that lasted 52 days including the battle of Crete.

The 99% loss of its airborne forces.

The one and more month to relocate (most of them because some had to stay in Greece) back to Polland an other month.

Make the calculations. IF Barbarossa campaign would start 3 months earlier teh Siberian Forces would not have the time to re-inforce the Moslow's defences and counter attack in the Stalingrand front. The road to Turkey and later to Iran-Iraq would be opened and their oil would suply the german military machine plus it would force Turkey to take Germany's sode in  the war opening an other war front to ALLIES! Turkey declaired war to Germany 8 hours before Germany surrendered.

[albin322]

6 minutes ago, Anthoniusii said:

Please all READ my edited post with History Chanel refernces in 4 crusial points why Germans lost WW2.

Count..German Troops leave Polland that are ready to invade Soviet Union to Bulgaria and prepair their attack.

The Attack to Serbia that collapses in 48 hours.

The attack to Greece that lasted 52 days including the battle of Crete.

The 99% loss of its airborne forces.

The one and more month to relocate (most of them because some had to stay in Greece) back to Polland an other month.

Make the calculations. IF Barbarossa campaign would start 3 months earlier teh Siberian Forces would not have the time to re-inforce the Moslow's defences and counter attack in the Stalingrand front. The road to Turkey and later to Iran-Iraq would be opened and their oil would suply the german military machine plus it would force Turkey to take Germany's sode in  the war opening an other war front to ALLIES! Turkey declaired war to Germany 8 hours before Germany surrendered.

sure but tbh i dont think those troops would impact the war much. they could we can never be sure. but i dont think so.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

7 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

For 3 months? Hmmm ... Operation was set to start on 15th May and it actually started on 22nd June. That is not three months, isn't it? It is actually a 38 day delay. And it has more with general logistic issues than Balkan campaign which impact was really small. Still Balkan campaign had no difference at all to outcome of 1941 campaign in the East, just as it was not winter, which did impact military operations, that caused failure to win war against Soviets in 1941.  

 

7 minutes ago, Anthoniusii said:

Please all READ my edited post with History Chanel refernces in 4 crusial points why Germans lost WW2.

Count..German Troops leave Polland that are ready to invade Soviet Union to Bulgaria and prepair their attack.

The Attack to Serbia that collapses in 48 hours.

The attack to Greece that lasted 52 days including the battle of Crete.

The 99% loss of its airborne forces.

The one and more month to relocate (most of them because some had to stay in Greece) back to Polland an other month.

Make the calculations. IF Barbarossa campaign would start 3 months earlier teh Siberian Forces would not have the time to re-inforce the Moslow's defences and counter attack in the Stalingrand front. The road to Turkey and later to Iran-Iraq would be opened and their oil would suply the german military machine plus it would force Turkey to take Germany's sode in  the war opening an other war front to ALLIES! Turkey declaired war to Germany 8 hours before Germany surrendered.

 

Okay.. this is getting complicated.

 

https://history.army.mil/books/wwii/balkan/20_260_5.htm

 

A short quick analysis to be found there.

 

Technically, the delay is about 5 weeks between the planned start of the invasion and the actual attack. There's something that I didn't even remember, that is a factor, the spring floods which apparently mean the operation could not have been launced on the planned date May 15th anyway.

 

Then again, how easy it is to switch campaigns on the fly like that? We know there are a lot of contributing factors that you'd need to take into account. Two of the most famous ones are the early, bitterly cold winter, lack of appropriate gear etc. Also, note.. that after the initial shock the Soviets weren't actually completely helpless and inept either.

 

I'm theoretizing, that all these (and other known) factors contributed to slowing down of Operation Barbarossa significantly enough that the German forces failed to reach strategic positions around Moscow early enough to be able to prevent Soviet consolidation of the capital's defenses and take Moscow before onset of winter.

 

That may not be quite three months, effectively, but I think closer to two months than just 3 weeks anyway.

[pra3y]

Greek fire HE shells. Inextinguishable and will remain burning even after you sink. Any other ship that goes through it will also suffer the same fate 

[entar128]

"No because Greek Destroyers were realy unique ships. Dr Santorinis in 1937 to 1938 invanded RADAR and placed it in Valieus Georgios for testing. British bought the patern (Greece had not the fund for mass production ) and developefd teh radar we all know. Yes Greek Navy has a ling tradition of creating hybrid ships. The heavier German main and AA guns had one purpose to cause damages to Turkish Destroyers in traditional gun fightings! But the torpedos remained British."

 

The only thing I can find about this is on some random blog named thegreatestgreeks that does some outlandish and easily disproven claims about the radar, mentioned as the "hellenic radar" in contrast to the "watts" radar. I can find no evidence on wikipedia or the greater internet, not even a mention about this doctor except a dentist and a team of scientists developing a weatherradar in modern times.

The destroyer also have no mention at all about a radar.

The type of radar mentioned has a grand total of 4 hits on google, where the aformentioned blog has all 4 hits. 2 from a forum referring to this blog, where they also discuss the claims about a modern radar to be mounted on jetaircraft.

The radar was researched on before this dr Santorini was even born, and continued to be researched on up to and after 1937. It didnt suddenly appear 1940. (Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_radar)

 

So, do you have any sources backing up the claim of the radar and the claimed inventor?

 

Edit: I cant quote correctly on mobile atm. :(

 1 hour ago

[fumtu]

1 minute ago, Anthoniusii said:

The Attack to Serbia that collapses in 48 hours.

 

Wow. I guess you are talking about invasion on Yugoslavia here, which is much more than just Serbia. And it did not collapsed in 48 hours but in 12 days

 

1 minute ago, Anthoniusii said:

The attack to Greece that lasted 52 days including the battle of Crete.

 

And this is oversimplification. Operations on the Greece mainland were mostly over by 30th April. And than there was pause for 20 day before German invasion of Crete in which only TWO German divisions took part, 7. Flieger Division and 5. Gebirgs Division, while the vast majority of the German troops that took part in the Operation Marita were already back to their starting positions for Operation Barbarossa.

 

1 minute ago, Anthoniusii said:

The 99% loss of its airborne forces.

 

99% loss? Now I really wonder what kind of sources you are using or how excessive is your research of the topic. While losses to airborne force were significant, they were very far from 99%. And, considering operation Barbarossa, they don't even matter, as 7. Flieger Division was not planned to have any significant role in it in first place.

 

I can understand that you are proud of your country contribution to ww2, and as a Greek you should be. They did fought very bravely and have impact on ww2 overal. Greek civilian population suffered horrendously under German and Bulgarian occupation, something that is not well known outside Greece. But if you want to speak about ww2, than you need to do much more research and not just focus on news-articles and dubious documentaries and even go outside role of your country in the war. 

 

21 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

Two of the most famous ones are the early, bitterly cold winter, lack of appropriate gear etc.

 

Again, winter did impacted combat performance, of BOTH side. But it is not decisive factor for failure of Operation Typhoon, logistic problems, general state of German troops (of which lot could be bring down to logistic problems) and Soviet resistance did. And German Army had serious logistic issues from outset of the Operation Barbarrasa, not just during Autumn and Winter.  

 

9 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

That may not be quite three months, effectively, but I think closer to two months than just 3 weeks anyway.

    

38 day is not closer to two months, it is one month and one week. 

[Anthoniusii]

8 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

Wow. I guess you are talking about invasion on Yugoslavia here, which is much more than just Serbia. And it did not collapsed in 48 hours but in 12 days

 

 

And this is oversimplification. Operations on the Greece mainland were mostly over by 30th April. And than there was pause for 20 day before German invasion of Crete in which only TWO German divisions took part, 7. Flieger Division and 5. Gebirgs Division, while the vast majority of the German troops that took part in the Operation Marita were already back to their starting positions for Operation Barbarossa.

 

 

99% loss? Now I really wonder what kind of sources you are using or how excessive is your research of the topic. While losses to airborne force were significant, they were very far from 99%. And, considering operation Barbarossa, they don't even matter, as 7. Flieger Division was not planned to have any significant role in it in first place.

 

I can understand that you are proud of your country contribution to ww2, and as a Greek you should be. They did fought very bravely and have impact on ww2 overal. Greek civilian population suffered horrendously under German and Bulgarian occupation, something that is not well known outside Greece. But if you want to speak about ww2, than you need to do much more research and not just focus on news-articles and dubious documentaries and even go outside role of your country in the war. 

 

 

Again, winter did impacted combat performance, of BOTH side. But it is not decisive factor for failure of Operation Typhoon, logistic problems, general state of German troops (of which lot could be bring down to logistic problems) and Soviet resistance did. And German Army had serious logistic issues from outset of the Operation Barbarrasa, not just during Autumn and Winter.  

 

    

38 day is not closer to two months, it is one month and one week. 

What? Which history do you read? Serbian (because Croatians made their mutiny early) artilery bombed Italians in Albania for a week but when Germans that could not breach the Metaxas forts line turned to what we today call North Mecedonia , Serbians had no preparations and surrendered in 48 hours creating a huge gap in the Greek defences where the plain favorited the use of tanks! What history do you read ???

Even the British expedition force that was near by was taken by surpise by the speed of the Serbian collapse! I would sugest you to READ REAL HISTORY books and not wiki pages.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

7 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

Again, winter did impacted combat performance, of BOTH side. But it is not decisive factor for failure of Operation Typhoon, logistic problems, general state of German troops (of which lot could be bring down to logistic problems) and Soviet resistance did. And German Army had serious logistic issues from outset of the Operation Barbarrasa, not just during Autumn and Winter.  

 

It can be assumed the cold winter impacted the Soviets less. While it was exceptionally cold, the fact it can get exceptionally cold in winter came as no surprise to them, whereas apparently it did for the Germans unless there is some other explanation for them overlooking weather factors.

 

The question remains, to what extent were those logistical issues impacted by the need to conduct the very much ad hoc Balkan campaign right on the doorstep of the planned invasion of the Soviet Union. You could assume there is little impact considering the difference in scale, but I don't have any idea how the logistical side of Wehrmach operations worked so can't comment on that to any significant degree. Since then, it's very much 'what if' kind of reasoning on my part.

 

 

7 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

    

38 day is not closer to two months, it is one month and one week. 

 

The delay prior to 22th June is less significant than the delays caused by a number of factors during the invasion itself leading to the Battle of Moscow. The failure of Operation Typhoon on the German side is a combination of all these factors combined with the fact how skilfully the Soviets conducted their defensive campaign. That, too, must have come us a suprise because I think the Germans relied on the red army having been weakened by Stalin's purges.

[Foxhound421a]

While I’d be happy with a few Greek ships there are a lot more famous vessels that aren’t in game for example Rodney, Renown, Diana (daring class last gun kill against a surface combatant an Egyptian frigate during the suez crisis), Tiger (bc), Belgrano and so on. Also now we have a Europe tree I’d expect a few Greek destroyers to make appearances as premiums but only after they have sorted out the current upcoming ships 

[fumtu]

13 minutes ago, Anthoniusii said:

What? Which history do you read? Serbian (because Croatians made their mutiny early) artilery bombed Italians in Albania for a week but when Germans that could not breach the Metaxas forts line turned to what we today call North Mecedonia , Serbians had no preparations and surrendered in 48 hours creating a huge gap in the Greek defences where the plain favorited the use of tanks! What history do you read ???

Even the British expedition force that was near by was taken by surpise by the speed of the Serbian collapse! I would sugest you to READ REAL HISTORY books and not wiki pages.

 

Somehow I expected this to come this way. I must say I am not surprised too considering your first post in the thread. Someone who is using History channel as a source is saying to me to READ REAL HISTORY ... sight. Any arguing is just a waste of time so ... have a nice day

 

12 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

It can be assumed the cold winter impacted the Soviets less. While it was exceptionally cold, the fact it can get exceptionally cold in winter came as no surprise to them, whereas apparently it did for the Germans unless there is some other explanation for them overlooking weather factors.

 

Less, doesn't mean no impact at all, or you are thinking that their trucks and tanks did not froze. But again, German campaign in the East did not fail because of Winter.

 

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The question remains, to what extent were those logistical issues impacted by the need to conduct the very much ad hoc Balkan campaign right on the doorstep of the planned invasion of the Soviet Union.

 

Not at all. German logistic problems in Soviet Union has nothing with Balkan Campaign.