Submarines are not just broken they are over performing

[The_Chiv]

I play a bit of subs in co op and ranked last update. I found them interesting but not overly enjoyable. With this last patch however facing them in random I found them a bit too consistent and a bit too powerful. So I decided to see just how powerful they could be. 

 

So I took the balao out put a 19 pts usn captain on it and did a build I found on youtube. And what I got was this.

 

5 torps for 53k... Lets break this down shall we. 53852/5=10770.4

 

by getting 2 pings on a target and having those pings locked to say the middle of the ship, FYI pretty easy to hit if you flank your target as I did, you will cause citadels with each torp. Well a citadel for the Balao is 7833 This gives you 39165 damage. So where did the other 14k+ damage come from? 

 

So 15% more as long as you have double ping on an area. Seems legit and since the area we hit was right under gun 2 it would be citadels so that would be 7833+15%=9007.95. 9007.95x5=45039.75. Again where is this extra damage coming from?

 

The only conclusion I can make is that not only does the 2nd ping negate anti torpedo buldge, allow citadels, but also increases the base damage of the torp.  How much? Well If normal base + captain skill= 9007.95 and actual result = 10770.4. Then the increase the 2nd ping provides is 19.55%. 

 

It is important to note that this only applies to shots that hit the flat broadsides. Shots that hit the bow or stern do not carry as much impact and since there is no citadel in those parts will gain a bit of damage mitigation due to damage saturation. Still A Balao can cause 64k damage just with its front torps. Torps that have a 12km range, can travel at 93kts, and can track on target. As long as the sub can flank and maintain more then 6km away from a target that it is able to double ping on a citadel it can cause massive damage. Now I have not tested the German subs out to see if they are able to do the same thing but in theory they should be able to do more with their front 6 as their TX sub has torps that do 8633 damage base +15% for the skill +19.55% for 2nd ping bonus would equate out to about 71k damage. 64k and 71k are the top ends of damage theoretically for both Tier X subs. While 64k and 71k  are at the most extremes of the spectrum in terms of damage on target one has to ask about consistency. While my test took place in a co op battle in random play getting those results will be much less consistent, but when it happens it will leave a rather sour taste in the mouth of anyone on the receiving end. At the end of the day the impact this current iteration of subs has is extremely detrimental to meta health and player enjoyability. The ping mechanic takes a majority of the skill factor of this game and removes it allowing players to have a greater impact with only having to focus on positioning and timing. Falling victim to a submarine feels extremely oppressive, more so then when dealing with cvs. With a cv you can always run back to your fleet and get some air cover. With a sub most of the time you will never know they are there until it is too late and thus any form of counterplay is nonexistant.

 

Subs are overperforming and not healthy for the game in their current iteration. Pls try again WG.

 

 

 

[Camperdown]

Nope, they won't.

And subs need to be in the 4-8% popularity bracket, or they will buff them even more.

You see, if the reality does not fit WGs prejudices, reality has to be adjusted. Even if it breaks the game.

[Aragathor]

33 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

You see, if the reality does not fit WGs prejudices, reality has to be adjusted. Even if it breaks the game.

And WG will claim everything is fine, even if their incompetent choices kill the game, like WoWP.

[Lieut_Gruber]

And also: Those homing torps all hit the same spot, no damage saturation like normal torps?

[Yosha_AtaIante]

2 minutes ago, Lieut_Gruber said:

And also: Those homing torps all hit the same spot, no damage saturation like normal torps?

there is damage saturation, I hit 4 torps on a sub before with my sub, didn't kill him because sat saved him. It's kind of sad and they should fix this.

[Prophecy82]

6 hours ago, The_Chiv said:

 

Subs are overperforming and not healthy for the game in their current iteration. Pls try again WG.

Are they? I mean statistically? 

Last thing I heard was, that their impact and dmg-output was rather "meh". 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

3 minutes ago, Prophecy82 said:

Are they? I mean statistically? 

Last thing I heard was, that their impact and dmg-output was rather "meh". 

I mean why question the people on this forum anyway? They are so biased and delusional that they make up things as they need. 2 years ago player numbers were dropping aready and game was "dying". Every little crap that happens the people here make some bs stats up to claim the death of the game happening and that WG better nerfs or listens or whatever.

[The_Angry_Admiral]

6 hours ago, The_Chiv said:

I play a bit of subs in co op and ranked last update. I found them interesting but not overly enjoyable. With this last patch however facing them in random I found them a bit too consistent and a bit too powerful. So I decided to see just how powerful they could be. 

 

So I took the balao out put a 19 pts usn captain on it and did a build I found on youtube. And what I got was this.

 

5 torps for 53k... Lets break this down shall we. 53852/5=10770.4

 

by getting 2 pings on a target and having those pings locked to say the middle of the ship, FYI pretty easy to hit if you flank your target as I did, you will cause citadels with each torp. Well a citadel for the Balao is 7833 This gives you 39165 damage. So where did the other 14k+ damage come from? 

 

So 15% more as long as you have double ping on an area. Seems legit and since the area we hit was right under gun 2 it would be citadels so that would be 7833+15%=9007.95. 9007.95x5=45039.75. Again where is this extra damage coming from?

 

The only conclusion I can make is that not only does the 2nd ping negate anti torpedo buldge, allow citadels, but also increases the base damage of the torp.  How much? Well If normal base + captain skill= 9007.95 and actual result = 10770.4. Then the increase the 2nd ping provides is 19.55%. 

 

It is important to note that this only applies to shots that hit the flat broadsides. Shots that hit the bow or stern do not carry as much impact and since there is no citadel in those parts will gain a bit of damage mitigation due to damage saturation. Still A Balao can cause 64k damage just with its front torps. Torps that have a 12km range, can travel at 93kts, and can track on target. As long as the sub can flank and maintain more then 6km away from a target that it is able to double ping on a citadel it can cause massive damage. Now I have not tested the German subs out to see if they are able to do the same thing but in theory they should be able to do more with their front 6 as their TX sub has torps that do 8633 damage base +15% for the skill +19.55% for 2nd ping bonus would equate out to about 71k damage. 64k and 71k are the top ends of damage theoretically for both Tier X subs. While 64k and 71k  are at the most extremes of the spectrum in terms of damage on target one has to ask about consistency. While my test took place in a co op battle in random play getting those results will be much less consistent, but when it happens it will leave a rather sour taste in the mouth of anyone on the receiving end. At the end of the day the impact this current iteration of subs has is extremely detrimental to meta health and player enjoyability. The ping mechanic takes a majority of the skill factor of this game and removes it allowing players to have a greater impact with only having to focus on positioning and timing. Falling victim to a submarine feels extremely oppressive, more so then when dealing with cvs. With a cv you can always run back to your fleet and get some air cover. With a sub most of the time you will never know they are there until it is too late and thus any form of counterplay is nonexistant.

 

Subs are overperforming and not healthy for the game in their current iteration. Pls try again WG.

 

 

 

Would it be more that people still haven't gotten a handle on dealing with them yet? This always happens when something is new.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

1 hour ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

Would it be more that people still haven't gotten a handle on dealing with them yet? This always happens when something is new.

Be careful, this forum community doesn't like reasonable and logical sounding things. If you don't hate on subs and WG by default you are part of the conspiracy

[Hugh_Ruka]

35 minutes ago, Yosha_nai said:

Be careful, this forum community doesn't like reasonable and logical sounding things. If you don't hate on subs and WG by default you are part of the conspiracy

Because "wait and see until it is too late" is so reasonable ....

[Yosha_AtaIante]

3 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Because "wait and see until it is too late" is so reasonable ....

Dude people are saying its to late for years now for every little thing they think WG did badly. And here we are, consistent player numbers and the same forum warriors still repeating the same

[RuruushuVuiBuritania]

39 minutes ago, Yosha_nai said:

Be careful, this forum community doesn't like reasonable and logical sounding things. If you don't hate on subs and WG by default you are part of the conspiracy

Most things I see on this forum make me question human intelligence and make me wish I was part of the conspiracy.

[Yedwy]

7 hours ago, Aragathor said:

And WG will claim everything is fine, even if their incompetent choices kill the game, like WoWP.

Yep

[The_Angry_Admiral]

47 minutes ago, Yosha_nai said:

Be careful, this forum community doesn't like reasonable and logical sounding things. If you don't hate on subs and WG by default you are part of the conspiracy

Yeah logic is Kryptonite around here.

[Verblonde]

2 hours ago, Prophecy82 said:

Last thing I heard was, that their impact and dmg-output was rather "meh". 

I think it varies a lot with tier, and who's driving the submarine. It's a small data-set, but I played several high tier games over the weekend, and in some the submarines were entirely dominant, and in others their impact was negligible; in all these games I was playing DDs. It seems to be rather 'feast or famine', at least in the T8+ bracket.

 

My concern is that a lot of the new submarine players have no idea what they're doing yet (this was the weekend, after all), which is depressing the average impact the things are having; WG have their (denied) target popularity, and will keep buffing until they meet it, which will make submarines even more unreasonable in the hands of those who have worked them out.

 

It's entirely improbable that WG will realise their mistake and remove submarines from proper game modes; we're stuck with them. I think they'd be semi-tolerable if either homing was removed, or if 'de-pinging' was tied to something other than dcp. MM also needs fixing: I had multiple games where subs and DDs combined were about half of each team; this is clearly ridiculous. It's not too bad if you like driving DD-hunting DDs (so, yay for Smaland etc.), but it must suck for the BB drivers; this latter point is why I think it quite likely that WG might actually do something about MM in this case - anecdotally, the BB players are the dominant part of the customer-base; pi$$ing them off (air-dropped DCs notwithstanding) strikes me as commercial suicide!

[Cippalippus]

8 hours ago, Aragathor said:

And WG will claim everything is fine, even if their incompetent choices kill the game, like WoWP.

As if that game was ever truly alive.

[SkollUlfr]

imagine a "torpedo" that launched into the air, and tracked targets based on "radar pings".

now imagine putting that into the game with no counters, and bodging the function of a repair ability into being some sort of temporary psudo-stealth.

[Cippalippus]

33 minutes ago, Yosha_nai said:

Dude people are saying its to late for years now for every little thing they think WG did badly. And here we are, consistent player numbers and the same forum warriors still repeating the same

Which game are you playing? Because I know more people that have stopped or taken extended breaks from the game than those still playing. Hell, my contact list in game is basically always empty and the people in there used to play this game a lot. 

Stable numbers isn't also exactly a success. 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

3 minutes ago, Cippalippus said:

Which game are you playing? Because I know more people that have stopped or taken extended breaks from the game than those still playing. Hell, my contact list in game is basically always empty and the people in there used to play this game a lot. 

Stable numbers isn't also exactly a success. 

no one is calling it a success though. It's certaily not bad.

[Johnny_Moneto]

Vor 9 Stunden, The_Chiv sagte:

So 15% more as long as you have double ping on an area. Seems legit and since the area we hit was right under gun 2 it would be citadels so that would be 7833+15%=9007.95. 9007.95x5=45039.75. Again where is this extra damage coming from?

 

The only conclusion I can make is that not only does the 2nd ping negate anti torpedo buldge, allow citadels, but also increases the base damage of the torp.  How much? Well If normal base + captain skill= 9007.95 and actual result = 10770.4. Then the increase the 2nd ping provides is 19.55%. 

Can we come back to the undocumented extra damage? Anybody got a good explanation for that?

[arttuperkunas]

2 minutes ago, Johnny_Moneto said:

Can we come back to the undocumented extra damage? Anybody got a good explanation for that?

I have it on good authority that this is an optical illusion caused by excessive forum whining.

 

-Yosha_nai, probably

[Sink_Different]

1 hour ago, SkollUlfr said:

imagine a "torpedo" that launched into the air, and tracked targets based on "radar pings".

now imagine putting that into the game with no counters, and bodging the function of a repair ability into being some sort of temporary psudo-stealth.

You have described CV in Wows.

Congratulations

[NoLuvForPhatShips]

I don't know I'd much rather have a submarine in my game than a CV.

[Pikkozoikum]

11 hours ago, The_Chiv said:

I play a bit of subs in co op and ranked last update. I found them interesting but not overly enjoyable. With this last patch however facing them in random I found them a bit too consistent and a bit too powerful. So I decided to see just how powerful they could be. 

 

So I took the balao out put a 19 pts usn captain on it and did a build I found on youtube. And what I got was this.

 

5 torps for 53k... Lets break this down shall we. 53852/5=10770.4

 

by getting 2 pings on a target and having those pings locked to say the middle of the ship, FYI pretty easy to hit if you flank your target as I did, you will cause citadels with each torp. Well a citadel for the Balao is 7833 This gives you 39165 damage. So where did the other 14k+ damage come from? 

 

So 15% more as long as you have double ping on an area. Seems legit and since the area we hit was right under gun 2 it would be citadels so that would be 7833+15%=9007.95. 9007.95x5=45039.75. Again where is this extra damage coming from?

 

The only conclusion I can make is that not only does the 2nd ping negate anti torpedo buldge, allow citadels, but also increases the base damage of the torp.  How much? Well If normal base + captain skill= 9007.95 and actual result = 10770.4. Then the increase the 2nd ping provides is 19.55%. 

 

It is important to note that this only applies to shots that hit the flat broadsides. Shots that hit the bow or stern do not carry as much impact and since there is no citadel in those parts will gain a bit of damage mitigation due to damage saturation. Still A Balao can cause 64k damage just with its front torps. Torps that have a 12km range, can travel at 93kts, and can track on target. As long as the sub can flank and maintain more then 6km away from a target that it is able to double ping on a citadel it can cause massive damage. Now I have not tested the German subs out to see if they are able to do the same thing but in theory they should be able to do more with their front 6 as their TX sub has torps that do 8633 damage base +15% for the skill +19.55% for 2nd ping bonus would equate out to about 71k damage. 64k and 71k are the top ends of damage theoretically for both Tier X subs. While 64k and 71k  are at the most extremes of the spectrum in terms of damage on target one has to ask about consistency. While my test took place in a co op battle in random play getting those results will be much less consistent, but when it happens it will leave a rather sour taste in the mouth of anyone on the receiving end. At the end of the day the impact this current iteration of subs has is extremely detrimental to meta health and player enjoyability. The ping mechanic takes a majority of the skill factor of this game and removes it allowing players to have a greater impact with only having to focus on positioning and timing. Falling victim to a submarine feels extremely oppressive, more so then when dealing with cvs. With a cv you can always run back to your fleet and get some air cover. With a sub most of the time you will never know they are there until it is too late and thus any form of counterplay is nonexistant.

 

Subs are overperforming and not healthy for the game in their current iteration. Pls try again WG.

 

 

 

Poor bot had no chance v_v

 

But in case of torpedo damage. I think you can give it up, because the damage in the port is a "calculated" value of alphadmg/3 + splashdamage. But also Submarine-Torpedos do bonus-damage to citadels, when double pinged.

We don't have the numbers of the bonus damage, and I don't think we have numbers for alpha damage or splash damage.

 

 

[venderbomb]

6 hours ago, Yosha_nai said:

I mean why question the people on this forum anyway? They are so biased and delusional that they make up things as they need. 2 years ago player numbers were dropping aready and game was "dying". Every little crap that happens the people here make some bs stats up to claim the death of the game happening and that WG better nerfs or listens or whatever.

There is an element of that, its human nature unfortunately. On saying that I've never seen the player base so against an addition as subs; forums, in game, social media.....all up in arms.

 

I never thought for one minute I'd take a break from the game, as updates don't generally bother me.....but im taking a break just now - the current manifestation of subs and my personal experience has not been fun!

 

Hoping for improvement!☹