How to make Carriers a little less OP

[Deckeru_Maiku]

I guess everyone has already seen the videos by Papedipupi and Aerroon showing the Tier X IJN CV.

And quite a few people seem to be worried by the alpha strike a this CV can deliver with a five torpedo bomber squads, three dive bomber squads setup.

 

Some of it comes from the fact, that these players are just awfully good at what they do.

Some of it comes from the fact, that the Tier X might be just a bit OP considering the data of it's planes.

 

But A LOT of it comes from the fact, that it is possible to stack the bomber squads for the attack. If you watch the videos, you can see both players organizing their TB squads until they are neatly stacked above each other, showing - in the best case - only a single plane icon on the map.

 

When the planes approach their target and drop their loads, those nice little torpedo symbols show up, but in this case each symbol doesn't stand for one topedo, but for a number of torpedoes equalling the number of squads stacked. So when one of those symbols makes contact, a number of torpedoes equalling the number of squads used for the attack hits the target.

 

This is highly unrealistic (and extremely OP imho) as planes wouldn't be able to stay that close together and drop their loads right onto each other's load.

Being able to singleshot targets with very high HP without them having even a chance to evade is the result, which most players seem to find quite undesireable.

 

Possible (!?!) Solution:

 

Make it so that airplane squads from the same ship have to stay a certain distance from each other - at least when going in for dropping their load. During the flight to the target the planes could travel in different heights, explaining why stacking might work there.

But at least when going in for the target squads would need a certain distance between each other to achieve a secure drop.

 

So make it a couple of hundreds of meters. Planes would close at the target in waves then, with each wave hitting the water a bit later than the one before, depending on the "safety distance" between squads.

From a certain value on - I guess about 200m - this kind of drop would no longer be effective, forcing the CV player to control each of the squads itself, instead of just sending in five squads with one click.

 

Good players will surely adapt to this and still be successfull, but maybe a little bit less successfull than now.

Bad players could still use the auto-drop function and set the attack angle with the auto-drop mechanic.

 

Another complain with the Tier X in the videos was, that they seem to be largely uneffected by AA fire. It's my uneducated guess, that this is also a result of this squad stacking.

Automatic AA shoots with it's AA power at the squads in range. If there are many squads in range, AA seems to be divided among these squads. Combined with the high speed if the Tier X planes, the squadrons do not stay in the AA range long enough to suffer any losses.

If squads were forced to come in not in stacks, but one after the other with a little time difference, they would get focussed one after the other and the damage thresholt (sp?) might be reached and some planes might get shot down.

 

Feel free to correct any weird ideas I had in this post (if possible with proof).

[Sharana]

The AA is shooting only 1 squadron at a time, it's not dividing fire. That's the only reason players are stacking them - to avoid the AA. If you send them 1 by 1 they will take heavy losses.

[ParEx]

The AA is shooting only 1 squadron at a time, it's not dividing fire. That's the only reason players are stacking them - to avoid the AA. If you send them 1 by 1 they will take heavy losses.

 

Problem is, atm a TierX CV can do massive damage no matter how strong the AA on the enemy ships are.

Yesterday I was in a Tier10 battle with my Mahan and a Des Moines and a Montana were in a Platoon on my team. We attacked on a flank together and destroyed a DD and a Tier8 CA.

Then we tired to get the enemy Essex at this flank. No chance. Besides the DM and the Montana do have some really nice AA, there was no chance surviving long enough to get into reach of the enemy Essex.

 

Really. This cant be true. A Tier10 CA and a Tier10 BB with good AA cant survive kill a Essex? They werend dumb, they tried to evade the shots, supported each other with AA but this is too much.

[NelsonXes]

My problem with the tier X IJN CV is the speed of the Torp bomber and Dive bombers!

 

My self in Des moines and a Montana get attacked by Dive Bombers they come in on a flank and  make an attack run I hit Y for the panic effect, and the DB just turn round and leave our AAA range with just 2 plane losses from 3 squads and wait out the effect before attacking again on the second attack he lost 1 plane Montana is on fire multiple places, he extinguishes, then come the TBS  the montana turns into them to make life hard the TBS fly as 1 over him and turn on spot on other side and drop a salvo of torps that 1 shots the montana, 5 squads of TBs and we shot down just 3 planes!!

 

They are attacking or running SO fast they make Stacked AAA defences useless, the bombers even out run tier VIII fighters. they need slowing down so the AAA can do some work on them!, seen plenty of other attacks by these CVs against 3 BBs and they had CA escorts too and the same thing happens just with a few more plane losses, you cant stop these attacks in any way,

 

[ParEx]

Thats the point. on Midtiers (tier6....8) the carriers face a quite good AA so they have to be carefull not to lose many planes.

When the combined AA of an US CA and US BB (those with the highest AAs atm) cant handle the attacks of one enemy carrier either the AA is too weak or the planes got too much HP.

There should always be a threat when attacking enemy ships with strong AA, but where is the point when I only lose 2...3 planes when sinking a enemy CA of my own class?

[P_W_Tordenskiold]

Increase the activation-range of the torpedoes, at least double it, then make further adjustments if needed. This will punish unaware players while those with situational awareness actually have room to navigate, while at the same time make an anvil-attack or similar more tactically sound.

[Enkidu69]

Increase the activation-range of the torpedoes, at least double it, then make further adjustments if needed. This will punish unaware players while those with situational awareness actually have room to navigate, while at the same time make an anvil-attack or similar more tactically sound.

 

If you double the activation range everybody will be able to dodge TB's with ease.

 

The real problem is the fact that auto drop is so pathetic nobody ever use it while manual drop is slightly too good because planes behave like UFO's. Both on TB's and DB's  you are forced to manual drop everything. Imagine how much micromanagement that needs. A really good CV player can drop torps almost on the edge of activation, but against a good player (even a BB) half of the torps will miss anyways. Right now IJN CV will hit with just 50% of torps even if BB is not moving or stuck on island. Meanwhile USN CV's get just 1 TB squad until Tier IX.

 

Tier IX-X CV's may be unbalanced, I wouldn't know since I'm not there yet. But on lower tiers they are not unbalanced in any way.

 

If a CA use his AA skill you won't hit anything. If a DD use smoke you can't see anything. Enemy CV can ruin your runs with fighters. If BB's and CA's stay close to each other every attack attempt will slaughter your planes.

 

There are many ways to deal with CV's. But they require teamplay. CV's may seem too strong in a random pug, but in clan wars they will be pathetic. Proper team setup and ship placement will completely ruin them.

 

You can't nerf CV's because they can kill lone ships pretty easily. Because that will make them completely useless in organized groups. CV can attack once in maybe 3-4 minutes. BB can fire every 30 seconds and kill enemy ships with one well placed salvo. Minekaze can kill a BB with one torp salvo and reloads in 30 seconds. CV can kill in one attack too, but if you just start turning early he won't. He may take most of your HP but won't kill you. And then he can't attack for next 4 minutes. Have a friendly DD put smoke and you are saved. Have a friendly CA use his AA skill and you are saved. Have a friendly CV cover you with fighters and you are saved.

[Ascender]

Nerf Essex TBs like they nerfed IJN TBs and no1 will hit anything with torps anymore ^_^

Make it so that airplane squads from the same ship have to stay a certain distance from each other - at least when going in for dropping their load. During the flight to the target the planes could travel in different heights, explaining why stacking might work there.

But at least when going in for the target squads would need a certain distance between each other to achieve a secure drop.

 

I like this idea. Not by hundreds of meters, but at least by plane length (so for instance if you have 8 TBs you essentially fly around a very large USN formation rather than a stacked IJN formation). But again considerations, I made a suggestion about AA that no1 seemed to care about but what it came down to was essentially the same as what you are suggesting but rather by discouraging/encouraging, basically increasing flak effectiveness against stacked planes and decreasing it against non-stacked planes. What this would achieve is less "instant death" scenarios while allowing CVs to think slightly more tactically because it would allow them to act a little more flexible (i.e. not lose a set number of planes on approach causing the NEED to stack planes like currently is the case, just to get some ordenance to the target). Added bonus would be making fighters more viable by being a direct buff to smaller numbers of TBs while for larger numbers of TBs it would simply increase the time of an 'attack' allowing for response time from both the target and his teammates.

 

Either way, would like to see something done to reduce the stacking, or at least incentivise alternatives.

 

Oh and with regards to the topic title, only the strike Essex is kinda OP atm, because his TBs aren't nerfed and the only true counter to an Essex is another Essex (you know, with the IJN T9 CV not being in the game yet and even then the fighters would probably be very underwhelming in performance as they tend to be).

[ironhammer500]

 

If you double the activation range everybody will be able to dodge TB's with ease.

 

The real problem is the fact that auto drop is so pathetic nobody ever use it while manual drop is slightly too good because planes behave like UFO's. Both on TB's and DB's  you are forced to manual drop everything. Imagine how much micromanagement that needs. A really good CV player can drop torps almost on the edge of activation, but against a good player (even a BB) half of the torps will miss anyways. Right now IJN CV will hit with just 50% of torps even if BB is not moving or stuck on island. Meanwhile USN CV's get just 1 TB squad until Tier IX.

 

Tier IX-X CV's may be unbalanced, I wouldn't know since I'm not there yet. But on lower tiers they are not unbalanced in any way.

 

If a CA use his AA skill you won't hit anything. If a DD use smoke you can't see anything. Enemy CV can ruin your runs with fighters. If BB's and CA's stay close to each other every attack attempt will slaughter your planes.

 

There are many ways to deal with CV's. But they require teamplay. CV's may seem too strong in a random pug, but in clan wars they will be pathetic. Proper team setup and ship placement will completely ruin them.

 

You can't nerf CV's because they can kill lone ships pretty easily. Because that will make them completely useless in organized groups. CV can attack once in maybe 3-4 minutes. BB can fire every 30 seconds and kill enemy ships with one well placed salvo. Minekaze can kill a BB with one torp salvo and reloads in 30 seconds. CV can kill in one attack too, but if you just start turning early he won't. He may take most of your HP but won't kill you. And then he can't attack for next 4 minutes. Have a friendly DD put smoke and you are saved. Have a friendly CA use his AA skill and you are saved. Have a friendly CV cover you with fighters and you are saved.

 

Really? People are learning to drop them 200m away from BBs with no risk to the squadrons at all. Try dodging torps in a Battleship at 200m. I feel they planes are a little op and they survive way to easy against ships. Also they made their attack runs 1 by 1 back in the war.

 

Planes from carriers are just a little to strong, they need less HP and better chance to be taken down. And bombers needs less chance of fire on their bombs every hit is a fire...

[Enkidu69]

 

Really? People are learning to drop them 200m away from BBs with no risk to the squadrons at all. Try dodging torps in a Battleship at 200m. I feel they planes are a little op and they survive way to easy against ships. Also they made their attack runs 1 by 1 back in the war.

 

Planes from carriers are just a little to strong, they need less HP and better chance to be taken down. And bombers needs less chance of fire on their bombs every hit is a fire...

 

How about you play CV's first then comment on how they work?

 

You start turning when bombers come your way. Not when they are 300m away. A good BB player will evade at least half of your torps and 3/4 of your bombs. Nearby CA can completely ruin your run with one button. So can a DD. So can enemy fighters. 

 

CV's are BB counter. Just like cruisers are a DD counter. Try to beat a good CA in a DD.

[ironhammer500]

 

How about you play CV's first then comment on how they work?

 

You start turning when bombers come your way. Not when they are 300m away. A good BB player will evade at least half of your torps and 3/4 of your bombs. Nearby CA can completely ruin your run with one button. So can a DD. So can enemy fighters. 

 

CV's are BB counter. Just like cruisers are a DD counter. Try to beat a good CA in a DD.

 

Have you seen how fast the bombers move? Even doing the "snake" move does not reduce the hit chance they ALWAYS land bombs. Torps wont show till they are almost on top of you because they have no drop animation. But like the Arty in WOT you a white knight for OP CVs crying please do not nerf my easy mode long range playstyle. Sure it has more micro but the Carrier is easy to hide on this big maps.

[Enkidu69]

 

Have you seen how fast the bombers move? Even doing the "snake" move does not reduce the hit chance they ALWAYS land bombs. Torps wont show till they are almost on top of you because they have no drop animation. But like the Arty in WOT you a white knight for OP CVs crying please do not nerf my easy mode long range playstyle. Sure it has more micro but the Carrier is easy to hide on this big maps.

 

Have you played a CV? Oh wait, you didn't.

 

DB's are lucky if they hit one bomb per squad. They are only useful for setting people on fire. Even with perfect manual drop on stationary BB you won't ever get more than 3 hits per wing. If a CA or fighters are nearby their accuracy is so pathetic they won't hit anything ever.

 

Torps have no drop animation yet but they have activation range. If you drop too close they will hit but not detonate.

[ironhammer500]

 

Have you played a CV? Oh wait, you didn't.

 

DB's are lucky if they hit one bomb per squad. They are only useful for setting people on fire. Even with perfect manual drop on stationary BB you won't ever get more than 3 hits per wing. If a CA or fighters are nearby their accuracy is so pathetic they won't hit anything ever.

 

Torps have no drop animation yet but they have activation range. If you drop too close they will hit but not detonate.

 

Quick google will show u how easy they are to play. Youtube my friends tell us all how good it is.

 

Not skill needed point and click and what about hardly hit any bombs? The point i show he hits 3 x on a Destroyer.

 

Again point click let the AI do the job for you... if carriers had to properly aim their fighters maybe it would be better. 

 

 

Now you prove to me how "easy" they are to dodge in a battleship

[Enkidu69]

 

Quick google will show u how easy they are to play. Youtube my friends tell us all how good it is.

 

Not skill needed point and click and what about hardly hit any bombs? The point i show he hits 3 x on a Destroyer.

 

Again point click let the AI do the job for you... if carriers had to properly aim their fighters maybe it would be better. 

 

 

Now you prove to me how "easy" they are to dodge in a battleship

 

Yeah, months old videos from before CV nerfs hit. Those are supposed to show anything?

[Kirasa]

 

Quick google will show u how easy they are to play. Youtube my friends tell us all how good it is.

 

Not skill needed point and click and what about hardly hit any bombs? The point i show he hits 3 x on a Destroyer.

 

Again point click let the AI do the job for you... if carriers had to properly aim their fighters maybe it would be better. 

 

 

Now you prove to me how "easy" they are to dodge in a battleship

 

No good CV player will use the auto drop...

So nothing with let the AI do the job for you. All those high damage games are from the best of the CV players, and they do everything manual. Approach angle, drop distance, area were to drop etc.

For all Squads at the same time, while sailing their ship to evade torps shot at them.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

The AA is shooting only 1 squadron at a time, it's not dividing fire. That's the only reason players are stacking them - to avoid the AA. If you send them 1 by 1 they will take heavy losses.

 

Yes, that is what is supposed to happen when airsquads get into the range of heavy AA.

And that is why I recommend a certain minimal range between squads - so AA at least gets a CHANCE to shoot some planes down. Oh, and to get rid of the Instakills that happen now so often...

 

I don't play that much CV in total, but I usually spread my daily game time between all classes if possible, and even I managed to get used to stack bombers by now and manage to cause severe damage when if I hit my target.

 

To all the others in this thread discussing drop range and other stuff (again.. and again.. and again..):

 

Please voice your opinion about my proposal. Don't repost the same old arguments over and over again.

 

The range for the manual drop is absolutely ok IMHO.

You need quite a lot of training to get it right.

It's easier with the US TB squads - tighter spread, more planes - but as US CV usually carry less TB squads it kinda evens out (a bit..)

 

When removing the ability to stack bombers, the US squads will also have a greater chance to be targetted one after the other by the flak and instakills might also happen less often with them.

[Sharana]

The BB's AA (USN mainly) is very good for it's tier and it's shooting the intended amount of planes if you do it right. The others are not supposed to shoot down more then a few planes. Same for the higher tier CV vs a lower tier BB. The AA is not balanced only for the tier X planes, because they are much faster then the others.

[ironhammer500]

 

Yeah, months old videos from before CV nerfs hit. Those are supposed to show anything?

 

What nerfs? They seem to perform the same way and ive got a friend who is terrible at RTS games owning in his carrier. Again stop defending it because its so clear to see, Torp bombers are so much easier to aim then a destroyer and do almost as much damage.

[P_W_Tordenskiold]

 

How about you play CV's first then comment on how they work?

I'm merely reflecting what the CV-captain with the best statistics out there(AFAIK) is saying, at least double the activation range of torpedoes, and I cannot but agree to see how it plays out(as is the purpose of a CBT).

 

 

If you double the activation range everybody will be able to dodge TB's with ease.

Dodge a proper anvil attack? Hardly, the whole point of the attack is to make it impossible to dodge and force the captain into a split-second decision that either results in a minimum of two torpedoes hit or multiple. And the reason this tactic was devised was because hitting a maneuvering target at high speed was, and should be for game-play purposes, very hard.

[Enkidu69]

Dodge a proper anvil attack? Hardly, the whole point of the attack is to make it impossible to dodge and force the captain into a split-second decision that either results in a minimum of two torpedoes hit or multiple. And the reason this tactic was devised was because hitting a maneuvering target at high speed was, and should be for game-play purposes, very hard.

 

This is again assuming CV is attacking a lone ship. In pugs that happens. In organized battles it won't.

 

Have a friendly DD set smoke and enemy CV will waste a lot of time. Have a friendly CA use his AA skill and enemy CV again lose a lot of time. Then he attacks and if you just turn he won't kill you. Will probably take most of your HP but won't kill you. Then it's at least 3 minutes before he can attack again. What if you have 2 CA's covering you? What if there are fighters to cover you? What if your entire team is moving in an organized formation? Because that is going to happen when clan wars start. And then CV's will be reduced to scouts.

 

Looking at the videos Tier X CV's are not balanced. They use jets that almost ignore AA and are very fast. But this game is not only about Tier X gameplay. You can't nerf the entire CV line because Tier X is too strong.

 

 

And back to the main topic, yes stacking bombers is stupid and should be removed.

[ParEx]

The BB's AA (USN mainly) is very good for it's tier and it's shooting the intended amount of planes if you do it right. The others are not supposed to shoot down more then a few planes. Same for the higher tier CV vs a lower tier BB. The AA is not balanced only for the tier X planes, because they are much faster then the others.

 

Thats true....but in the battle I mentioned a Des Moines and a Montana were side by side and managed to shoot down 1...2...maybe 3 planes per attack.

While the Essex hit with at least 3 to 4 Torpedos, the DBs not counted. Thats a bit weird. Two ships with the strongest airdefense ingame cant defend themself against one CV of the same tier while covering each other? Bad luck?

[Sharana]

 

Thats true....but in the battle I mentioned a Des Moines and a Montana were side by side and managed to shoot down 1...2...maybe 3 planes per attack.

While the Essex hit with at least 3 to 4 Torpedos, the DBs not counted. Thats a bit weird. Two ships with the strongest airdefense ingame cant defend themself against one CV of the same tier while covering each other? Bad luck?

 

Was that one CV the tier X IJN airport?

[ParEx]

 

Was that one CV the tier X IJN airport?

 

Essex. As wrote in the text.

[P_W_Tordenskiold]

 

This is again assuming CV is attacking a lone ship. In pugs that happens. In organized battles it won't.

 

Have a friendly DD set smoke and enemy CV will waste a lot of time. Have a friendly CA use his AA skill and enemy CV again lose a lot of time. Then he attacks and if you just turn he won't kill you. Will probably take most of your HP but won't kill you. Then it's at least 3 minutes before he can attack again. What if you have 2 CA's covering you? What if there are fighters to cover you? What if your entire team is moving in an organized formation? Because that is going to happen when clan wars start. And then CV's will be reduced to scouts.

 

Looking at the videos Tier X CV's are not balanced. They use jets that almost ignore AA and are very fast. But this game is not only about Tier X gameplay. You can't nerf the entire CV line because Tier X is too strong.

What if the water turns to wine?

 

Smoke is a tactic that is so rare it's hardly worth mentioning for regular games, I have never seen another destroyer use this however have employed it myself on a few occasions in ship vs. ship engagement. Vs planes I doubt it would be effective, but please prove me wrong. An anvil-attack is not mutually exclusive with a ship having escort btw.

While the AA-skill can be quite powerful a good CV-captain will bait for the trigger and wave off going for another target or waiting a wooping 30 seconds before moving in(or if tier 10, ignore it and continue). Just turning does not help against decent CV-players, nor does "shadow-turning" or other fancy terms. 

If you have 2 CA's covering you, and those CA's are of US origin and high tier then all the CV-player has to do is go for another target or attempt a drop at distance, something certain CV-players have become quite good at combining with the anvil tactic. This is the sort of play I envision promoting with said nerf.

If fighters are covering you and the CV-player actually has situational awareness, the matchmaking has magically hit gold which is so rare its hardly worth mentioning.

 

Yes, you will see proper formations when clan wars start. No, CV's will not be reduced to mere scouts as a result. What will happen is that CV's take on different roles than the controlling one they currently have. They will be scouts, they will be deterrents for advancing past a certain point, they will force maneuvers that expose the sides to enemy ships and be a general harassment element. You do not see these proper formations in regular game-play, it requires way too much coordination to be feasible. However all this is mute as it isn't in the game and wont be for a long time.

 

I would argue none of the tiers are balanced. Lower tiers are balanced in (heavy?)favor of other ships, while tier 8-10 is balanced in (heavy)favor of CV's to the point that it is a severe hindrance. The higher tiers need something more substantial than a mere small adjustment as this topic suggests, they are controlling game-play.

[Aerroon]

Increase the activation-range of the torpedoes, at least double it, then make further adjustments if needed. This will punish unaware players while those with situational awareness actually have room to navigate, while at the same time make an anvil-attack or similar more tactically sound.

 

You could even triple it, it won't make a difference for most of my gameplay. Why? Because most players are tomatoes and don't react. Sure, tripling the activation range would make me unable to kill good BB players, but those are so far and few inbetween that I wouldn't even notice it.

 

However, what would happen is that I would have to drop torpedoes from so far away that I would essentially never lose planes to AA as I would drop torpedoes from way further away.