Kagero/Yugumo/Shimakaze Insight

[Sir_Sinksalot]

Hi guys,

 

Just looking for some feedback and tips about these top tier IJN DD's. 

 

As we saw recently, the Shima was either the most or one of the most played ships in the entire game. Both recently and of all time. This DD has stood the test of time. If that's not an endorsement and good enough reason to get and try this ship I don't know what is. What's interesting is, when I asked about the two IJN DD lines years ago when I first played this game and found random battles briefly interesting, I was told by most that the other line, the gunboat style DD was the better line.

 

So that been said, I recently went ahead and purchased the T8 and set sail down the grind path and back trying random battles again.

 

Kagero

 

Ok so I've only played this 4 times so far in random battles. Hardly a decent sample size lol but I must say this DD is positively addictive and likeable. Excellent camo rating when tricked out with all the bells and whistles, something like 5.4km detection by sea, crazy good along with having about 10km reach relatively fast torps that bang really really hard. This detection rating and torp range difference makes this DD really comfortable to play thus far, very forgiving and landing just 1 or 2 torp strikes is enough to give an enemy ship a really bad day, sometimes even enough to one shot another DD.

 

Also, and this is really nice, it has a Torpedo Reload Booster option(lets just call it TRB) instead of smoke and that's the path I take. So I've played it passively obviously, no smoke and with the TRB I periodically get to set torp traps with an evenly spread wall of 16 torpedoes! It hasn't always worked out but averaging just over 70k dmg per battle so far, a lot to learn yet! Torp reload when tricked out is about 101 seconds and because I only have an 11 skill point commander I chose -10% torp reload skill instead of the hp buff skill, an all in torp build until I get more skill points. I really like this DD, especially the TRB and don't miss smokes at all, there's always a CV or radar ship about anyway plus I don't like breaking visual with enemy ships where possible. Smokes are handy for offering some teammates a temporary cover but for personal protection I find them pretty much placebo tbh for reasons mentioned unless you got a but gun happy in open waters from range but because they're not gunboats and the guns are so weak I'm pretty good at being disciplined in that regards and just play it like it has no guns at all unless I'm litterally backs to the wall and going to die anyway or nothing to lose trying.

 

Yugamo

 

I'd like some insight and advice on this DD. It's next in line, I'll have it soon enough and at a glance it looks to be the better and more capable than the Kagero. Is this true however? In regards "tier strong" is it tier for tier better? At a glance what I'm seeing is a similar DD with almost as excellent camo rating, torps that now reach out to 12km instead of 10km, bang harder, still takes that TRB I enjoy so much and now reloads a lot faster at 87 secs instead of 101. So I'm looking forward to that DD and it really looks like a better DD with an even more comfortable buffer between torp range and ship detection along with the ability to simple launch torps sooner and have that many more torps scooting through the water towards ranks of enemy ships. What's it like in practice however?

 

Shima

 

Ok, the end result, the cherry in the top, the chosen one, Mr popular etc etc lol. How does the DD playstyle take a change from the T9 and T8 if at all? 

 

At a glance, what I see is a DD boasting almost as excellent camo rating again only this time it steps up from 35knts to almost 40knts so it's base speed is faster straight out of the box. It has 3 torp options and I'll go out on a limb and assume that the "middle" option, the 12km Type93 Mod. 3 are the torpedoes of choice? So again you get this very comfortable buffer between your ship and the enemy ships just like the Yugamo only this time the DD itself is faster so can theoretically get away from harm a little faster too, though the torps themselves are the exact same as the top spec torps on the Yugamo.

 

What I do notice, sadly(or perhaps fortunately from a balance perspective!!), is the TRB is no longer an optional consumable and it's a forced smokes option. At a glance this seems a bit disappointing and suggests the T9 and even the T8 are potentially more fun even though the TRB is only a periodical offering, not available after every single reload obvious lol! But instead of the Yugamo's nice 87 sec reload, the Shima has a rather leisurely and somewhat vulnerable, inactivity rendering 117 sec reload at best... ok so that's not years more than the Kagero's 101 secs but then again the Kagero takes a TRB the Shima doesn't have.

 

That said, unlike the T8 and T9's 2X4 torpedo tube launchers, the Shima boasts a whopping great 3X5 torpedo tube launchers. So while the T8 and T9 do periodically get the chance to practically launch 16 torpedoes quickly, the Shima gets to launch up to 15 torpedoes each and every reload and so without owning this DD, perhaps this is the "secret" feature that makes the Shima so formidable, popular and worth getting above it's two predecessors. But again, any insight would be very helpful before I get my hands on it.#

 

Thanks guys.

 

 

[arttuperkunas]

I am giving feedback not as an IJN torp line expert, but as someone who also grinded up this line recently.

 

Kagero:

 

A good and underrated boat. The only problem with the Kagero is that the premium variants (Asashio, Harekaze) are basically just better. They keep the best in tier concealment, while adding superior torps (Asashio) / superior guns (Harekaze).

 

Yugumo:

 

A great boat, currently my favourite T9 DD. 12 km vs 10 km torps is a huge upgrade, and the guns are also more usable than on the Kagero. While T9 has some very tough competition (boats like Neustrashimy, Benham and Black spring to mind), Yugumo is very good at least in randoms.

 

Shimakaze:

 

A good boat, but imo suffers due to the extremely powerful DDs you have at T10. It's not bad, but I get the impression  that it's been powercrept quite a bit by more recent releases. Unsurprisingly, Ragnar/Småland crap all over it.

[OldschoolGaming_YouTube]

19 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Kagero

 

Yugamo

 

Shima

 

 

OP A-F if you learn to play the line. Don't have time to write a novel but if you click the link to my channel below I have several playlists featuring Asashio, Yugumo, Kamikaze R and Shima (all play in same way and with mostly same captain build - RPF for the Win!), with guides on how to play and how to build for success.

 

On Kagero and Yugumo, always use TRB never smoke. Instead learn to play around CVs and use your team AA support until he gets bored of you.

[Margin_Walker]

Don't forget that you have guns. Especially with the Yugumo and Shima. Just looked and over 40% of my kills with the Yugumo (one of my favourite ships tier for tier) are with the main battery. Clearly going one on one with a Mogador isn't a great idea, but you have decent alpha so it's well worth using it in the right situation. i.e you have lots of support, the enemy ship is preoccupied or you can get a salvo or two off before ducking behind cover. 

 

 

[Verblonde]

29 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Just looking for some feedback and tips about these top tier IJN DD's. 

Mediocre player perspective:

• All three are excellent, mainly due to a combination of class-leading concealment and torps that hit like the proverbial dumptruck. For me, it's the concealment that's the crucial element for Randoms - so many players don't know how to counter sneaky bar-stewards, so you can play right on the edge of your concealment limits which can be great fun.
• TRB is more fun, but harder to do well with; at my skill level, I tend to take smoke - as @OldschoolGaming_YouTube says, for skilled players, TRB is the way to go.
• Your weaknesses are fairly obvious, with CVs (and maybe now SSs) and their spotting abilities being the hardest to deal with, for an average player anyway. The rocket nerf didn't do any harm, although a decent player knows how to lead with rockets, so "don't get c0cky, kid!" (as it is Written).
• There is a tendency to forget you have guns (it's kind of habit-formed from earlier in the line), but they shouldn't be disregarded; the higher tier IJN torp boats have pretty respectable alpha, and the guns can do a lot of damage if you pick your spots (i.e. don't fire when half the opposing fleet has LoS to you).
• A useful tip someone a lot better than me once passed on: with Shima there is a lot to be said for launching two sets of torps when you attack, and keeping the third in reserve; a lot of folk tend to fire everything they've got all at once, and targets know that - even just one launcher of Shima torps can ruin someone's day, especially if they just relaxed a bit having evaded your initial launch.
• Speaking of torps, for goodness' sake, don't use the 20 km Shima option; they are the work of Satan. Most people go with the 12 km option (ditto on Yugumo) instead, although really skilled players seem to favour the ultra-manly 8 km option. I'm not skilled enough for that, so I go with the 12 km pick,  and play Yukikaze when I feel my frazzled old reactions can cope with 8 km torps...
• Finally, it is worth picking up one or more of the premium Kageros if opportunity presents (and - for many people - if they can be nabbed without giving WG actual money): they're almost all very good (Harekaze II is relatively poor), all get the same ludicrous sneakiness (5.4 km), the good ones aren't nerfable (so far; Harekaze II is, but see previous remark), and they all play differently to each other. The original Harekaze is tier-for-tier still one of the best DDs in the game (Cossack is probably better, but not by much). Of course, it's a shame that WG have been such colossal Richards over the last several months; that's put a lot of folk off giving them money. Plus, it's looking like SSs really mess up DD stealth play...

[tocqueville8]

50 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Yugamo

 

In regards "tier strong" is it tier for tier better? At a glance what I'm seeing is a similar DD with almost as excellent camo rating, torps that now reach out to 12km instead of 10km, bang harder, still takes that TRB I enjoy so much and now reloads a lot faster at 87 secs instead of 101. So I'm looking forward to that DD and it really looks like a better DD with an even more comfortable buffer between torp range and ship detection along with the ability to simple launch torps sooner and have that many more torps scooting through the water towards ranks of enemy ships. What's it like in practice however?

 

Imho Yugumo is better than Kagero, tier-for-tier:

 

1) some matches are going to have no carrier at all (everyone's going to be T9), so forgoing the smoke is going to be a bit less risky

2) when there is as carrier, the Yugumo has decent AA to shoot down at least *some* planes

3) the Yugumo has decent turret traverse

4) 12 km torps are just better against radar cruisers

 

The Shima has a very dangerous torpedo salvo, but 12 km range isn't too good at T10: because she struggles to kill enemy DDs, she often needs to stay back for a bit, but that means she has a hard time landing torps on second-line targets, unlike the Halland and the Gearing.

[Itwastuesday]

I play 20km Shimakaze quite often. It's a good scout, has basically no reason to ever die to anything and often times you get massive damage numbers. If you pick 20km torp, think of it not as 20km sniper but rather a more than 12km boat, since then you can attack without unnecessary risk. Remember that most high tier battleships - especially the godawful German ones - have glacial rudders and massive hulls. They can see your torps, but it does not help them.

 

My entire mindset on the Shimakaze is that it's a scout first and foremost, and then sometimes you get these games 

 

[Verblonde]

1 minute ago, Itwastuesday said:

If you pick 20km torp, think of it not as 20km sniper but rather more than 12km boat

That's a pretty good way to think about it; presumably the general "don't use the 20 km torps" advice is mainly pitched at the tuberous who think that because you can shoot from 20 km you generally should?

[OldschoolGaming_YouTube]

25 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

• A useful tip someone a lot better than me once passed on: with Shima there is a lot to be said for launching two sets of torps when you attack, and keeping the third in reserve; a lot of folk tend to fire everything they've got all at once, and targets know that - even just one launcher of Shima torps can ruin someone's day, especially if they just relaxed a bit having evaded your initial launch.

This is what could happen if you do that

 

My favorite DDs are just those 3 launcher DDs like Shimakaze or Somers. With so many hydro ships around these days (and new German BB line incoming) with the long reload of said torps its usually a waste to go full in and send all 3 in one go against 1 ship. Usually they get hydrod or they just WASD hacks and you miss and you have to wait 2 min for next chance. Instead I usually just send one launcher first and see what happens. Do they hit or does it seem like hydro is in play? If they hit you forced a DCP and you can send 1 more set and wait and see what happens.

 

Doing this have 3 positiv effects.

1. You can send a new set of potential devastating effect every 30-40 sec which means more fun for you, little "down time".

2. With all the active hydros in the world its very hard for a enemy flank to tap dance around new devastating set of torps every 30-40 seconds from different directions, without either getting hit by torps or getting blasted for showing broadside to a enemy BB in the process. Its what I call the "Asashio effect", which means the enemy flank is never safe, they can never know when the next salvo of 24 K damage per torp spread arrives. Its almost impossible for them to push under these circumstances.  

3. Many perma floods (which can be seen in the video above)

[Itwastuesday]

1 minute ago, Verblonde said:

That's a pretty good way to think about it; presumably the general "don't use the 20 km torps" advice is mainly pitched at the tuberous who think that because you can shoot from 20 km you generally should?

I vouch for 20km because my experience is that it's the WORST when your DD's die, and I'll rather take an alive zero damage DD in my team than one that went too close to the sun and died heroically. With 20km torp you just focus even more on scouting, staying healthy, screening, area denial and all that less risky stuff. The 12km option creates an incentive for you to get closer, and possibly killed. You'll need to be smarter and more aware if you use the shorter ranged weapons, and will need better support from team when the communists and the DD hunters are in your vicinity.

 

Pick the option suited for how good you think you are, really. I mean, most Shimakaze go around for a flanking maneuver that accomplish nothing and often gets them killed, so the bar for doing better than average isn't high.

[Snyfox]

I still don't know why Shima doesn't have TRB

[gabberworld]

19 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

I play 20km Shimakaze quite often. It's a good scout, has basically no reason to ever die to anything and often times you get massive damage numbers. If you pick 20km torp, think of it not as 20km sniper but rather a more than 12km boat, since then you can attack without unnecessary risk. Remember that most high tier battleships - especially the godawful German ones - have glacial rudders and massive hulls. They can see your torps, but it does not help them.

 

My entire mindset on the Shimakaze is that it's a scout first and foremost, and then sometimes you get these games 

 

yeah this happens only if other team dd's is braindead

[Itwastuesday]

3 minutes ago, gabberworld said:

yeah this happens only if other team dd's is braindead

Well like 90% of the time it's another Shimakaze or a Halland. Of course games like that still happen infrequently, since most BB will just kite to the back of the map. 

[Sir_Sinksalot]

44 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

Most people go with the 12 km option (ditto on Yugumo) instead, although really skilled players seem to favour the ultra-manly 8 km option. I'm not skilled enough for that, so I go with the 12 km pick,  and play Yukikaze when I feel my frazzled old reactions can cope with 8 km torps...

 

What I found strange about the 8km option on the Shima is that it actually deals the less damage than the 12km and only slightly more damage than the 20km option.

 

Ok, I can see the 8km gets a faster torpedo and thus takes less time to reach the target and so theoretically has the greatest chance of hitting a target since 1. you need to be that much closer when you launch as a minimum distance which means it has to travel less distance 2. The torpedo is faster so it takes even less time to cover the same distance if all torp options were fired from the exact same range 3. The target has less time to react.

 

Fine, but there's no getting away from the fact that the 20km torps are the least risky to play, the 12km are a little more risky because you obviously have to get that much closer while the 8km require the most risk in regards their minimum distance launch requirements. So, if this is a case of "Risk vs reward" we can see the 12km deals more damage than the 20km, so shouldn't that mean the 8km should deal the most damage of all because they involve the highest risk of the 3 options?

[Sir_Sinksalot]

16 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

I vouch for 20km

 

And do you practically only focus BB's with those, the slowest BB's you can find and pretty much relocate to get at the slowest ships featured on the enemy team?

 

Also, how do you implement that attack? Do you launch all 3 salvos at one and just cover a very large area of water with 15 torps? 

[lafeel]

The biggest problem with these is the same as it is with every torpedo focused dd in the game.

 

Namely that, and often for no fault of your own, it tends to be either feast or famine, with all too little in between.

[tocqueville8]

31 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

I play 20km Shimakaze quite often. It's a good scout, has basically no reason to ever die to anything and often times you get massive damage numbers. If you pick 20km torp, think of it not as 20km sniper but rather a more than 12km boat, since then you can attack without unnecessary risk. Remember that most high tier battleships - especially the godawful German ones - have glacial rudders and massive hulls. They can see your torps, but it does not help them.

 

My entire mindset on the Shimakaze is that it's a scout first and foremost, and then sometimes you get these games 

That's how I play the Asashio, tbf.

Good concealment and decent guns mean she's a great screen, while at the same time she can torp 2nd and 3rd line BBs (and even carriers) from safety.

 

But I don't know, 2.5 km concealment on the torps means giving up on the idea of getting Dev Strikes on DDs, which is part of the appeal of the Shima.

[tocqueville8]

1 minute ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

And do you practically only focus BB's with those, the slowest BB's you can find and pretty much relocate to get at the slowest ships featured on the enemy team?

BB-cruiser clusters, or lemming trains, but you should also focus stationary cruisers (Soviet and USN heavies, as well as Dutch), and occasionally attempt to snipe the cv.

[Verblonde]

2 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Fine, but there's no getting away from the fact that the 20km torps are the least risk, the 12km are a little more risky while the 8km are the most risky in regards their minimum distance launch requirements so, we can see the 12km deals more damage than the 20km, so shouldn't that mean the 8km should deal the most damage of all? Risk vs reward sort of thing?

I haven't memorised the stats, but my recollection is that it's about likely damage done: the 8 km torps are rather more likely to hit than the others, so the actual damage done with them is likely to be higher than with  the 12 km ones, even though the damage-per-torp is higher on the latter. The 12 km torps are fairly easy to spot and evade, compared to the faster 8 km pick.

 

18 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

Pick the option suited for how good you think you are, really.

Alas, there isn't a 50 km option, which would probably be about right by that metric...!

 

Being sensible, I probably should try the 20 km option a bit more; that said, I appear to be less bad overall in Shima than I am in - say - Gearing (although I have a feeling that Gearing was one of my earlier T10s - Groz was the first - so I was an even worse player back then and the stats probably still reflect that).

[Itwastuesday]

8 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

 

And do you practically only focus BB's with those, the slowest BB's you can find and pretty much relocate to get at the slowest ships featured on the enemy team?

 

Also, how do you implement that attack? Do you launch all 3 salvos at one and just cover a very large area of water with 15 torps? 

I focus on areas, more like. Usually at the beginning stages of the match just torp different places. Even having to maneuver around torps can get ships blasted by your team. It all depends on who's doing what. Mostly just go where you can spot targets that your team can shoot at, so look at their line of sight a bit.

 

Like my tip would be to not focus on torp use all that much even. Stay alive and scout.

[Bindolaf_Werebane]

Mediocre player's take:

 

Kagero: I free-xp'd it, I just could not click with it. In retrospect there were two reasons: 1. I was still new and 2. Back then tier 8 matchmaking was worse than three days of diarrhea (like tier 7 is now).

 

Yugumo: Good Lord. What a fun and powerful destroyer. I always use TRB and never forget the guns, which can finish a low health target with prejudice. I am bad with DDs and Yugumo makes me look actually decent. That's how good it is.

 

Shimakaze: Never ever listen to anyone who says "20km torpedoes are fine". They are crap and they only (ok, mostly) get used by J-line destroyers - the worst kind: Feckless damage farmers, who can't even farm useful damage.

 

Shimakaze is strong, because its torpedoes sting badly. Also it can scout well (but carefully!) and its guns are freakishly strong. The problem, as others have pointed out, is that tier X is home to quite a few DD killers. Exceptional ships like the Daring. So, while Shimakaze is very strong, you won't feel like a god, like with Yugumo.

 

Have fun!

[Bindolaf_Werebane]

9 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

 

And do you practically only focus BB's with those, the slowest BB's you can find and pretty much relocate to get at the slowest ships featured on the enemy team?

 

Also, how do you implement that attack? Do you launch all 3 salvos at one and just cover a very large area of water with 15 torps? 

Wide-spread, I'd guess.

[Itwastuesday]

Oh also, I just now had the opportunity to depth bomb a T8 german submarine. 18 bombs, two charges, seems pretty good, right?

 

It didn't care. 5 hits and I got rushed down by their Gearing and a cruiser and had to trade with the Gearing :( 

 

Seems like the way to go vs. submarines is "don't".

 

 

[Bear__Necessities]

At work currently. Happy to offer advice on all 3 as I've just recently reground them from scratch and have replays to offer also. If you want that is.

 

Stats link to validate my words:  https://na.wows-numbers.com/player/1036458028,Vasili_One_Bonk_only/

[Aethervoxx]

Thanks for this informative topic, Sir_Sinks_aLot, I've taken notes from the comments & will apply these to my Yugumo & Shimikaze play.

I barely have figured out the Yugumo tho I have sort of figured out the Shimikaze (no slamming me pls)

25 minutes ago, Bear__Necessities said:

Happy to offer advice

Ya, I do believe, Bear Necessities, I did run into you in a battle in NA vs your 'Vasili_One_Bonk_only' account & my reaction was 'Who is this guy, whoever he is, he's damn good' (I think you, basically,  solo  wreaked my team).