Passive sonar captain skill or module for DD's and cruisers

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

I'd like to suggest adding a captain skill or module extention (edit: added) for DD's and CA/CL's that picks up active pings sent out by submarines within a limited radius and gives directional information to the player that has it equipped like ping targets have. This would add surface to sub interaction that is missing right now. We can call it Passive Pizza Sonar (PPS) for the time being, as the skill would work a bit like passive sonar does as far as I can tell.

 

Currently spamming pings has very little consequences for the sub player, other then it's target being able to roughly estimate where the sub is located. Targets are the only ones to get directional info of ping locks and have to use minimap clicking and chat to tell teammates about possible sub threats and locations. This is clumsy, doesn't happen, gets missed or misunderstood. A dedicated captain skill can help a team locating active sub threats.

 

Subs have a massive detectability advantage at range that is very hard to break in the current iteration. A passive sonar skill for DD's and cruisers can initiate surface to sub interaction where the sub has to decide if sending out a ping is worth the risk of sending out location information to possible nearby threats, and where teams can attempt to triangulate active sonar pings in order to counter a sub attacking a flank or teammate. When a ping is detected by the skill, the sub could get a 'ping detected by passive sonar' warning in return automatically if needed. It might even be a dedicated sub captain skill on it's own merit.

 

PS; Please respect the topic and keep other sub discussion points in other available relevant topics if possible. Thanks!

 

EDIT: I've added the module extention suggested by several posters, please refer to the posts below for other suggestions, changes or alternatives.

[SodaBubbles]

Since the devs insist we have to eat this sub garbage, this is a great idea. 

[Shaka_D]

As a dedicated skill this could level the playing field further and possibly partially appease some of those really unhappy with the current status quo. I'd even go as far to suggest the skill be a low level one for one or two skill points rather have captains try decide between this and more valuable higher level captain skills. Good idea.

[lovelacebeer]

It’s a good idea that would allow for some counterplay, so sadly WG will totally ignore it. 

[FryingTonight]

Much as I admire people trying to mitigate poor decisions by suggesting changes, it doesn't mitigate the poor decision makers (and their touchy egos) still being there.

 

Waste of time trying.

[SobanRe]

It could be integrated in the radio location skill.

The white indicator for surface ships and a yellow or so for submarines. 

[Itwastuesday]

Might I suggest this should be a permanent ability of all ships, and DD/Cruiser skills simply enhance it? 

[Bindolaf_Werebane]

This is a great idea.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

38 minutes ago, SobanRe said:

It could be integrated in the radio location skill.

The white indicator for surface ships and a yellow or so for submarines. 

This is a valid suggestion I think, thanks. Where the radio directional indicator is permanent, the passive sonar indicator in the RPF would function exactly as the current targets ping directional indicator: a yellow directional indication that pops up for a short time, dissapears and only pops up again on a new ping.

[ZeuSueZ1337]

The idea with the skill being either integrated with the skill formerly known as RPF or a separate one is one I really like because it in essence would become "passive" and this would to some/a large extend provide a tool to counter what some experience as a game-wrecking class, the subs.

 

However knowing WG (sort of xD) an adjusted suggestion would be to add the described effect into a consumable - preferably into a slot of its own.

That way the effect could be different from branch to branch and from nation to nation (think smoke, hydro, radar etc.) thus - in theory - being more specific due to the adjustment on the consumable of a given class/branch/nation, and that way giving the respective classes/branches/nations the edge they need to become even/competitive against subs.

 

My two cents.

[Hugh_Ruka]

Also please allow us to ping a specific water SURFACE area as a target beacon ... pinging on the minimap is not understood properly and sometimes used for other communication (like heading and position). Basically we need a better area designation to communicate possible invisible threats than minimap ping.

[SkollUlfr]

do you really want to have weegee fiddling the commander perks again?
 

this(in some form) is one of the things that should have been classed as a mandatory foundational mechanic to the integration of submarines.

 

if ship modules where developed properly then modifiers to passive sonar/radar/repair etc could have been part of the game already. and frankly, should have been.

active sonar and radar should already be triggering rdf directional alerts even if the target doesnt have it as a 'skill'.

 

 

[Bear__Necessities]

I could only see this leading to a massive sub buff to compensate. Especially due to the technical fragility and small HP of a sub.

 

This IS weegee after all.

[Yedwy]

We basically had that, they removed it, chance of it coming back is same as a snowy day in hell

[WWDragon]

1 minute ago, Yedwy said:

We basically had that, they removed it, chance of it coming back is same as a snowy day in hell

Yes, ships had hydrophones at least destroyers did.

 

I am not fond of skills replacing equipment, if they want to add back hydrophones thats one thing ... if they want to add hydrophones as a module thats another thing but hydrophones as a captain skill? No, I also dont like radio location, at least with CV spotting there are some ways around it but radio location? But its a DD so its A-OK apparently ...

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

1 hour ago, ZeuSueZ1337 said:

The idea with the skill being either integrated with the skill formerly known as RPF or a separate one is one I really like because it in essence would become "passive" and this would to some/a large extend provide a tool to counter what some experience as a game-wrecking class, the subs.

 

However knowing WG (sort of xD) an adjusted suggestion would be to add the described effect into a consumable - preferably into a slot of its own.

That way the effect could be different from branch to branch and from nation to nation (think smoke, hydro, radar etc.) thus - in theory - being more specific due to the adjustment on the consumable of a given class/branch/nation, and that way giving the respective classes/branches/nations the edge they need to become even/competitive against subs.

 

My two cents.

Thanks man. I can see it be a consumable in the early days of WOWS and find your point about being able to tailor specific ships and builds pretty good. But given the spamming nature of the pinging mechanic, a permanent skill could be a preferrable solution at this late point to dampen the spam without changing the up and down time of the pinging mechanics itself.

1 hour ago, Itwastuesday said:

Might I suggest this should be a permanent ability of all ships, and DD/Cruiser skills simply enhance it? 

You may ^^ I think that might be too much of a good thing, too broad of a stroke. I'm currently disregarding other issues that subs have, those would need to be adressed seperately.

38 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

We basically had that, they removed it, chance of it coming back is same as a snowy day in hell

I kinda figured they did have something simular at one point. Any idea why it was abandoned? How did it work?

1 hour ago, SkollUlfr said:

do you really want to have weegee fiddling the commander perks again?
 

this(in some form) is one of the things that should have been classed as a mandatory foundational mechanic to the integration of submarines.

 

if ship modules where developed properly then modifiers to passive sonar/radar/repair etc could have been part of the game already. and frankly, should have been.

active sonar and radar should already be triggering rdf directional alerts even if the target doesnt have it as a 'skill'.

 

 

Agreed on all points. The idea popped up as a skill, I don't know why. It is a first knee jerk reaction to the current state of things. Modules are a great place to sink ASW into, but from what i can tell WG has passed that station pretty much. Combining it with RPF as @SobanRe suggested might be a valid solution to your first point as well, as we all learned to fear WG fiddeling with things. ^^

43 minutes ago, Bear__Necessities said:

I could only see this leading to a massive sub buff to compensate. Especially due to the technical fragility and small HP of a sub.

 

This IS weegee after all.

I know and you are most certainly right on the money as usual. I can see it lower subs battle influence and avg. damage, and WG usually fixes that by bluntly adding damage potential. Anything else that sticks out as problematic for the subs?

 

[Verblonde]

1 hour ago, SkollUlfr said:

do you really want to have weegee fiddling the commander perks again?

Short answer: no!

That said, the original idea is good; how about some sort of item of equipment? Call it something like 'Passive Detection Equipment' or something, and allow it to give directional information towards anyone using any sort of active detection device (so, hydro, radar, pings etc.). Not sure which slot though; I would like it in Slot 2, but it would more likely go in 3 or 4. Range TBC.

 

That way, you can give your ships some sort of counter to subs, albeit at a loss of whatever would have gone in the slot otherwise, and it would be (somewhat) useful in non-sub games too - against hydro/radar ships - so avoiding a 'useless' piece of equipment (such as AA upgrades in non-CV battles).

 

Probably needs work, but if we're forced to have submarines, at least give us some meaningful way to interact/counter them.

 

 

[CptBarney]

1 hour ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Also please allow us to ping a specific water SURFACE area as a target beacon ... pinging on the minimap is not understood properly and sometimes used for other communication (like heading and position). Basically we need a better area designation to communicate possible invisible threats than minimap ping.

They have this in world of tanks currently, and will most likely move it over here. But i like the suggestion a lot, knowin peegee they will mess it up, by making it a legendary skill or some bollocks or another.

[Pikkozoikum]

2 hours ago, Europizza said:

I'd like to suggest adding a dedicated captain skill for DD's and CA/CL's that picks up active pings sent out by submarines within a limited radius and gives directional information to the player that has it equipped like ping targets have. This would add surface to sub interaction that is missing right now. We can call it Passive Pizza Sonar (PPS) for the time being, as the skill would work a bit like passive sonar does as far as I can tell.

 

Currently spamming pings has very little consequences for the sub player, other then it's target being able to roughly estimate where the sub is located. Targets are the only ones to get directional info of ping locks and have to use minimap clicking and chat to tell teammates about possible sub threats and locations. This is clumsy, doesn't happen, gets missed or misunderstood. A dedicated captain skill can help a team locating active sub threats.

 

Subs have a massive detectability advantage at range that is very hard to break in the current iteration. A passive sonar skill for DD's and cruisers can initiate surface to sub interaction where the sub has to decide if sending out a ping is worth the risk of sending out location information to possible nearby threats, and where teams can attempt to triangulate active sonar pings in order to counter a sub attacking a flank or teammate. When a ping is detected by the skill, the sub could get a 'ping detected by passive sonar' warning in return automatically if needed. It might even be a dedicated sub captain skill on it's own merit.

 

PS; I have very little time right now. If anyone has any interest I'd be happy to discuss it here and find out if this skill could be beneficial to the game. Please also respect the topic and keep other sub discussion points in other available relevant topics if possible. Thanks!

 

EDIT: please refer to the posts below for suggestions for changes or alternatives made.

Technically a good idea, we had something earlier, that the pinging had a larger "ping bloom". That pinging caused a 4km bloom, which would give away the position anything in that radius. Especially DDs could make use of it. But they removed that feature. Though I liked it, that there weas that kind of counter play

[ZeuSueZ1337]

38 minutes ago, Europizza said:

But given the spamming nature of the pinging mechanic, a permanent skill could be a preferrable solution at this late point to dampen the spam without changing the up and down time of the pinging mechanics itself.

This might be more on the point than I'm willing to admit. Regardless great idea and a bit OT to all (so far) in this thread, the level of useful inputs and positivity in the midst of it all deserves a recognition.

[invicta2012]

46 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

Short answer: no!

That said, the original idea is good; how about some sort of item of equipment? Call it something like 'Passive Detection Equipment' or something, and allow it to give directional information towards anyone using any sort of active detection device (so, hydro, radar, pings etc.). Not sure which slot though; I would like it in Slot 2, but it would more likely go in 3 or 4. Range TBC.

A module would be a perfect solution. Rework the (now pointless) Torpedo Lookout System in Slot 5 so that it provides this type of information. This could be rolled out to certain lower Tier ships as well a special talent which could be added to Slots 3/4 as needed.

[SkollUlfr]

1 hour ago, Europizza said:

But given the spamming nature of the pinging mechanic, a permanent skill could be a preferrable solution at this late point to dampen the spam without changing the up and down time of the pinging mechanics itself.

my intention is for it gave away their position. as sonar pings did actually do. it would mean there would be an inbuilt cost to spamming. and a strong incentive to l2p.

[Bear__Necessities]

2 hours ago, Europizza said:

Anything else that sticks out as problematic for the subs?

They really really really are feast or famine. I've never had any game in any other class were I've gone the entire length of a game and not done zero damage or felt such low impact. In subs? At least 6 times now. And yet? I can knock out a 4 kill game with 180k right after a zero damage game. The consistency is just not there. It's the opposite of CV's. A CV can exert influence with minimal effort. A sub has to put in way more effort to exert influence. However when in a division, that's when the sub play really changes and shines. Which is not a good thing either.

 

I assessed the zero damage games after. And the single biggest thing is that having only ONE tool for offence, severely limits how often it can be used. It's the Indomitable situation, but worse. Once I factored in travel time, targets aimed for and the way each individual game played out. It was grim reading. Hence SO many people saying they are boring to play. If I can hit super unicum WR's of 75% and still have multiple no damage games in subs. I can only imagine the scaling when you travel further down the WR ladder. I currently average 60k ish in the T10 USN sub. That is far lower than most of if not all my T10 DD's that have significant games played. Yet I am averaging 1 kill plus a game and at least 25% of my teams caps etc. But that's not going to sell is it?  I expect a buff or more, a significant buff to subs before they go live.

[Verblonde]

1 hour ago, SkollUlfr said:

my intention is for it gave away their position. as sonar pings did actually do.

This could be an area that produces a bit of variety too, if WG wanted it to: as we all know, active detection systems in RL can be detected from much further away than they can detect stuff with that system (using a torch in the dark is the usual analogy); you could give different nations/classes different degrees of passive detection.

 

If the module route was taken, it could even be broken down by what you were detecting: have one faction better a detecting hydro, another radar, and so on...

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

17 minutes ago, Bear__Necessities said:

They really really really are feast or famine. I've never had any game in any other class were I've gone the entire length of a game and not done zero damage or felt such low impact. In subs? At least 6 times now. And yet? I can knock out a 4 kill game with 180k right after a zero damage game. The consistency is just not there. It's the opposite of CV's. A CV can exert influence with minimal effort. A sub has to put in way more effort to exert influence. However when in a division, that's when the sub play really changes and shines. Which is not a good thing either.

 

I assessed the zero damage games after. And the single biggest thing is that having only ONE tool for offence, severely limits how often it can be used. It's the Indomitable situation, but worse. Once I factored in travel time, targets aimed for and the way each individual game played out. It was grim reading. Hence SO many people saying they are boring to play. If I can hit super unicum WR's of 75% and still have multiple no damage games in subs. I can only imagine the scaling when you travel further down the WR ladder. I currently average 60k ish in the T10 USN sub. That is far lower than most of if not all my T10 DD's that have significant games played. Yet I am averaging 1 kill plus a game and at least 25% of my teams caps etc. But that's not going to sell is it?  I expect a buff or more, a significant buff to subs before they go live.

I see this hit or miss reflected in the subs a lot. I'm guessing the weird kill to damage ratio might be caused by the massive alpha strikes homing and single launch stacks do, even on bow or sterns so you can devstrike ships that have 30-40% HP left? In light of this, would adding passive sonar either through a skill or a module for example plummet those numbers even more? Would it add a strategic layer or simply already be too damaging to the weird place the subs are in right now?