New misdesigns on ships

[nerderklaus]

I only checked T8, T9 and T10 of the German BC line. The weak armor of the bow extents around the A-Turret. This certainly is a fantasy design. I guess added fantasy armor on Soviet ships gets compensated by fantasy-armor-removals on other ships. This area of a ship certainly would have had increased armor in order to make a detonation of the ammo storage less likely. Anyway, I wonder whether a Soviet brawling BB would have gotten a bow that is weaker than 32mm which extents to a turret. Some WG shill might bring up the Slava which is a sniping BB and has some special hidden plate in the bow. In the Game this armor allows 380mm+ shells to overmatch the bow and go into the babettes.

 

The next big offense is that the main German BB line had less alpha on shells of the same caliber compared to other nations, f.e. German 420's having damage like American 406's. It gets even worse with the new German BCs getting less alpha than the German BBs on the same calibers. On the T8 and T9 fantasy ships that number of guns with these reloads and such low alphas looks too weak to me.

 

The next thing are the submarines making battles even more vulnerable to rigged MM than they already are. The T10 allies I got this autumn looked as if they intentionally try to do everything wrong like *edit*. I think it will get even worse when there is a new class that is hidden like a stealth-firing ship back in the day...

[totally_potato]

On 10/11/2021 at 8:30 AM, nerderklaus said:

I only checked T8, T9 and T10 of the German BC line. The weak armor of the bow extents around the A-Turret. This certainly is a fantasy design. I guess added fantasy armor on Soviet ships gets compensated by fantasy-armor-removals on other ships. This area of a ship certainly would have had increased armor in order to make a detonation of the ammo storage less likely. Anyway, I wonder whether a Soviet brawling BB would have gotten a bow that is weaker than 32mm which extents to a turret. Some WG shill might bring up the Slava which is a sniping BB and has some special hidden plate in the bow.

this is for pure gameplay reasons and has nothing to do with the design of the ship whatsoever. 27mm armor was given to differentiate BCs from BBs.

And Borodino also exists besides slava with the whole soviet low plating thing

On 10/11/2021 at 8:30 AM, nerderklaus said:

The next big offense is that the main German BB line had less alpha on shells of the same caliber compared to other nations, f.e. German 420's having damage like American 406's. It gets even worse with the new German BCs getting less alpha than the German BBs on the same calibers. On the T8 and T9 fantasy ships that number of guns with these reloads and such low alphas looks too weak to me.

Well I would say American shells have high alpha for their caliber (NC-Montana). This is the trait of the American BB line. They have Super heavy shells, so to make that obvious, they give them good pen for their caliber, and good alpha.

As for the German BCs, the shells they use are WW1 shells, and to distinguish that, they either have less pen, or less alpha, or a bit of both. But again, the BCs have better accuracy, and better reload (except for the T4, 7 and 9, and in case for 7, its got more guns that Gneisenau, better reload than Yukon and Francesco, as well as better accuracy so it does stand out in some shape or form compared to calibers in its tier).

On 10/11/2021 at 8:30 AM, nerderklaus said:

The next thing are the submarines making battles even more vulnerable to rigged MM than they already are. The T10 allies I got this autumn looked as if they intentionally try to do everything wrong like *edit*. I think it will get even worse when there is a new class that is hidden like a stealth-firing ship back in the day...

that I can agree with

[Hugh_Ruka]

1 hour ago, totally_potato said:

And Borodino also exists besides slava with the whole soviet low plating thing

 

Slava has hidden plates in the nose to make citadelling impossible ... so so much for that ...

[KillStealBoss]

11 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Slava has hidden plates in the nose to make citadelling impossible ... so so much for that ...

Jest before she was released I remember citadeling her aft by Siegfried. Before they added those plates. 

[_JustDodge]

On 10/11/2021 at 8:30 AM, nerderklaus said:

I only checked T8, T9 and T10 of the German BC line. The weak armor of the bow extents around the A-Turret. This certainly is a fantasy design. I guess added fantasy armor on Soviet ships gets compensated by fantasy-armor-removals on other ships. This area of a ship certainly would have had increased armor in order to make a detonation of the ammo storage less likely. Anyway, I wonder whether a Soviet brawling BB would have gotten a bow that is weaker than 32mm which extents to a turret. Some WG shill might bring up the Slava which is a sniping BB and has some special hidden plate in the bow. In the Game this armor allows 380mm+ shells to overmatch the bow and go into the babettes.

 

The next big offense is that the main German BB line had less alpha on shells of the same caliber compared to other nations, f.e. German 420's having damage like American 406's. It gets even worse with the new German BCs getting less alpha than the German BBs on the same calibers. On the T8 and T9 fantasy ships that number of guns with these reloads and such low alphas looks too weak to me.

 

The next thing are the submarines making battles even more vulnerable to rigged MM than they already are. The T10 allies I got this autumn looked as if they intentionally try to do everything wrong like *edit*. I think it will get even worse when there is a new class that is hidden like a stealth-firing ship back in the day...

Have you played the new T8/9 german BC yet?

Because I have played the T9 a lot and I can tell you, it is not a weak BB. Honestly the icebreaker being only 30mm is all that keeps it from being borderline OP in my opinion.

The guns are rather accurate (BC dispersion), decent reload, overall pretty agile and insane secondaries. Those new BBs are absolutly fun to play and are the best BBs against subs. You have nearly cruiser levels off turning circle + rudder shift and a long range hydro.

 

[nerderklaus]

1 hour ago, totally_potato said:

this is for pure gameplay reasons and has nothing to do with the design of the ship whatsoever. 27mm armor was given to differentiate BCs from BBs.

And Borodino also exists besides slava with the whole soviet low plating thing

It occupies a BB slot. Many BCs are good or were good, because they didn't take a BB slot, but still had survivability close to some of the BBs. These sniping BBs might be able to get away with such a distinct weakspot, but not a secondary BB which by design is supposed to get close. This is similar to the R2D2 of the KV-5 in WOT.

Quote

Well I would say American shells have high alpha for their caliber (NC-Montana). This is the trait of the American BB line. They have Super heavy shells, so to make that obvious, they give them good pen for their caliber, and good alpha.

As for the German BCs, the shells they use are WW1 shells, and to distinguish that, they either have less pen, or less alpha, or a bit of both. But again, the BCs have better accuracy, and better reload (except for the T4, 7 and 9, and in case for 7, its got more guns that Gneisenau, better reload than Yukon and Francesco, as well as better accuracy so it does stand out in some shape or form compared to calibers in its tier).

Usually WW1 ships are tiered lower. T8-T10 require firepower for these tiers. There are late WW2 designs, post-war designs and the majority of fantasy ships in these tiers, but still a ship which is tiered there must be balanced for these tiers. Even on secondary ships the main battery is usually doing most of the work. KM BBs have too many limitations, f.e. less pen while being more likely to powerpen, gun arcs, damage/DPS, accuracy (ship dependend). What is the highest tiered German BB that is good for PVP? Bayern?

[nerderklaus]

9 minutes ago, _JustDodge said:

Have you played the new T8/9 german BC yet?

Because I have played the T9 a lot and I can tell you, it is not a weak BB. Honestly the icebreaker being only 30mm is all that keeps it from being borderline OP in my opinion.

The guns are rather accurate (BC dispersion), decent reload, overall pretty agile and insane secondaries. Those new BBs are absolutly fun to play and are the best BBs against subs. You have nearly cruiser levels off turning circle + rudder shift and a long range hydro.

 

And you have unusual ships with people not being aware of their changed profile of strengths and weaknesses, not aware yet. Siegfried has good accuracy for such big guns as well and it still is considered undergunned, because of their limitations.

I wouldn't be so certain what is best against subs. A good HE salvo from an RN BB is very scary for them as well.

[_JustDodge]

2 minutes ago, nerderklaus said:

And you have unusual ships with people not being aware of their changed profile of strengths and weaknesses, not aware yet.

 

I wouldn't be so certain what is best against subs. A good HE salvo from an RN BB is very scary for them as well.

Thunderer is great against subs, because it has really good ruddershift. However the low range airstrike means you can only avoid damge.

 

HE is a nonefactor against subs, since that requires them to be on the surface.

 

Again I have played both subs and the new german T9 a lot this weekend.

[Communist_Loli]

1 hour ago, nerderklaus said:

It occupies a BB slot. Many BCs are good or were good, because they didn't take a BB slot, but still had survivability close to some of the BBs. These sniping BBs might be able to get away with such a distinct weakspot, but not a secondary BB which by design is supposed to get close. This is similar to the R2D2 of the KV-5 in WOT.

Usually WW1 ships are tiered lower. T8-T10 require firepower for these tiers. There are late WW2 designs, post-war designs and the majority of fantasy ships in these tiers, but still a ship which is tiered there must be balanced for these tiers. Even on secondary ships the main battery is usually doing most of the work. KM BBs have too many limitations, f.e. less pen while being more likely to powerpen, gun arcs, damage/DPS, accuracy (ship dependend). What is the highest tiered German BB that is good for PVP? Bayern?

If it was me personally, I would like the current super cruisers to occupy the BB slot because that would give them access to skills that actually matter the most - Survivability. That and secondaries for ships like Siegfried, Agir, and Napoli. 

 

If the new German line was in the cruiser section that would've been tragic.

[MementoMori_6030]

Vor 1 Stunde, _JustDodge sagte:

insane secondaries

Oh yes, they are looking insane on a T10 ship. They are making Mikasa feel like a modern design. 

[Parasitkaffee]

The modernization of the Schlieffen is a wargaming design BUT the Ship itself (and the T9/8)is based on the German navy designs numbers  5041/5040

And  4531

 

Both are designes based on the Mackensen or Ersatz York ships 

(Mackensen lunched) 

. 

 

[MementoMori_6030]

They probably salvaged those 2ndaries from the Maginot line.

[Parasitkaffee]

1 minute ago, MementoMori_6030 said:

They probably salvaged those 2ndaries from the Maginot line.

I would say they used the Graf Zeppelin ones when the Ship was Refitted. 

[fumtu]

3 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Slava has hidden plates in the nose to make citadelling impossible ... so so much for that ...

 

3 hours ago, MacArthur92 said:

Jest before she was released I remember citadeling her aft by Siegfried. Before they added those plates. 

 

It always had those plates. They are inherited from Kremlin as it has same plates too. They have same models, only difference is that for Slava WG tweaked values of some plates but nothing new was added or removed.

[KillStealBoss]

1 hour ago, MementoMori_6030 said:

Oh yes, they are looking insane on a T10 ship. They are making Mikasa feel like a modern design. 

These are the same secondaries as Graf Zeppelin. They are not old type at all....

[totally_potato]

5 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Slava has hidden plates in the nose to make citadelling impossible ... so so much for that ...

you still take dmg

 

4 hours ago, nerderklaus said:

It occupies a BB slot. Many BCs are good or were good, because they didn't take a BB slot, but still had survivability close to some of the BBs. These sniping BBs might be able to get away with such a distinct weakspot, but not a secondary BB which by design is supposed to get close. This is similar to the R2D2 of the KV-5 in WOT.

The BCs in question, are super cruisers in game as they are too weak to occupy a BB slot at T9 and T10, and yet exist at that time period

The actual BCs, like Hood, Scharnhorst, Izmail, Constellation, Amagi, Kongo, Borodino, etc, all are Battlecruisers as BBs. If they add it into the cruiser slot, they best same tier cruisers, if they get their own class, it [edited] up the MM. As BBs, they atleast keep the MM balanced, and we already have weakly armored BBs, so its all fine

 

Also, regarding the bolded part, you haven't even played the BCs. So its best not to come to conclusions and the try the ships out instead, instead of complaining like an idiot. There are other factors that makes these ships good close in.

4 hours ago, nerderklaus said:

Usually WW1 ships are tiered lower. T8-T10 require firepower for these tiers. There are late WW2 designs, post-war designs and the majority of fantasy ships in these tiers, but still a ship which is tiered there must be balanced for these tiers. Even on secondary ships the main battery is usually doing most of the work. KM BBs have too many limitations, f.e. less pen while being more likely to powerpen, gun arcs, damage/DPS, accuracy (ship dependend). What is the highest tiered German BB that is good for PVP? Bayern?

These are ships, based on 1910 designs, hence the WW1 shells. And as far as the BCs are concerned, while their guns have lower pen, its enough to get the job done, the guns are consistent, and they have amazing gun arcs and rear 360 turret.

 

All German BBs are good for PvP, but they particularly excel at short scale fights

And a ship not being good for comp, doesn't mean they are bad ships. Each battle types has a different meta, and environment and each meta has a requirement, which every ship can't fill

 

[Hugh_Ruka]

12 minutes ago, totally_potato said:

you still take dmg

 

sure you do, but there's a difference of eating the full damage and just 1/3 for the pen ... and you can heal back more from a pen than from a citadel

[totally_potato]

1 hour ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

sure you do, but there's a difference of eating the full damage and just 1/3 for the pen ... and you can heal back more from a pen than from a citadel

there's that

There is also a difference of not taking any damage at all, and taking 1/3rd pen damage

[nerderklaus]

On 10/11/2021 at 12:00 PM, _JustDodge said:

HE is a nonefactor against subs, since that requires them to be on the surface.

 

Again I have played both subs and the new german T9 a lot this weekend.

Most subs I have seen lately messed up their battery timing, surfaced and got shot with main batteries, but they still were annoying until it happened.

On 10/11/2021 at 1:21 PM, Communist_Loli said:

If it was me personally, I would like the current super cruisers to occupy the BB slot because that would give them access to skills that actually matter the most - Survivability. That and secondaries for ships like Siegfried, Agir, and Napoli. 

 

If the new German line was in the cruiser section that would've been tragic.

Maybe on a ship by ship basis. For the team as a whole cruisers are more vulnerable to random citadels from camping BBs compared to a BC. There are ships that are squishy and overpowered, but more survivability is a good thing in most battles. In the firepower category it depends which BC you compare to which cruiser, but there are many BCs that have guns which are effective against all classes, f.e. Alaska.

23 hours ago, totally_potato said:

you still take dmg

 

Also, regarding the bolded part, you haven't even played the BCs. So its best not to come to conclusions and the try the ships out instead, instead of complaining like an idiot. There are other factors that makes these ships good close in.

These are ships, based on 1910 designs, hence the WW1 shells. And as far as the BCs are concerned, while their guns have lower pen, its enough to get the job done, the guns are consistent, and they have amazing gun arcs and rear 360 turret.

Which ship gets more overmatching shells fired at bow and stern? The close-range ship or the long-range ship? This determines how much a weakened by matters when you aren't an idiot microcosm.

 

The people in random battles lately are even worse than usual. Now they all camp in one corner. In the past they were twice as effective, because they camped in two corners and thereby covered twice as much area.

[MrWastee]

my downvote is for politization! ur personal political opinion is neither related to the topic or game, nor it belongs in here in any way!

[totally_potato]

22 minutes ago, nerderklaus said:

Which ship gets more overmatching shells fired at bow and stern?

ofc the close range ship

Its the ability of the close range ship to shrug off the dmg that makes them good, and the German BCs are definitely do that, even tho not as well as for eg German or Russian BBs. And the ships themselves are quite speedy, and possess a ton of firepower to just kill the ship outright, before it can kill them

[nerderklaus]

On 10/12/2021 at 4:32 PM, totally_potato said:

ofc the close range ship

Its the ability of the close range ship to shrug off the dmg that makes them good, and the German BCs are definitely do that, even tho not as well as for eg German or Russian BBs. And the ships themselves are quite speedy, and possess a ton of firepower to just kill the ship outright, before it can kill them 

I mean I saw some of them did some good numbers today, but it looked like other players are the reason for this. Other players in my recent sessions were so bad that there are no words which are adequate. So I guess they were extremely bad and did not know what to exspect with these news ships.

 

105mm secondaries instead of 128mm are a big limitation compared to the old KM BB line for dealing with BBs. Kremlin and the GK replacement will get 30mm overmatch for dealing with cruisers. All other T10 BBs which aren't snipers either have a 32mm bow or 32mm bow with icebreaker for dealing with BBs combined with higher HP. Guns might have such a Siegfried thing like hitting better, but still having too much limitations in other properties. The only big advantage I can see is better use of the hydro with better manouverability and the icebreaker catching some of the shells aimed on the bow depending on spread RNG.

[totally_potato]

1 hour ago, nerderklaus said:

105mm secondaries instead of 128mm are a big limitation compared to the old KM BB line for dealing with BBs. Kremlin and the GK replacement will get 30mm overmatch for dealing with cruisers. All other T10 BBs which aren't snipers either have a 32mm bow or 32mm bow with icebreaker for dealing with BBs combined with higher HP. Guns might have such a Siegfried thing like hitting better, but still having too much limitations in other properties. The only big advantage I can see is better use of the hydro with better maneuverability and the icebreaker catching some of the shells aimed on the bow depending on spread RNG.

yes that is true. 105mm guns are worse than 128mm guns. But 32mm can be crossed by IFHE for 2 points. As for 30mm overmatch, you can reposition and take on broadsides, and your secondaries will melt the bow anyway. Also you can aim for the superstructure for dmg btw

[lafeel]

42 minutes ago, totally_potato said:

yes that is true. 105mm guns are worse than 128mm guns. But 32mm can be crossed by IFHE for 2 points. As for 30mm overmatch, you can reposition and take on broadsides, and your secondaries will melt the bow anyway. Also you can aim for the superstructure for dmg btw

Which is where the considerably better mobility of the Schlieffen as compared with GK or Preussen comes in. (or indeed any other BC compared with it's regular BB counterpart (except Gneisenau and Prince Henry)

[totally_potato]

18 minutes ago, lafeel said:

Which is where the considerably better mobility of the Schlieffen as compared with GK or Preussen comes in. (or indeed any other BC compared with it's regular BB counterpart (except Gneisenau and Prince Henry)

and the concealment too....