Submarines in Random Battles

[Smegger213]

8 minutes ago, dN00b said:

Torpedoes stop homing when they get within 2.1km of a battleship, meaning from that point on they start going straight and do not turn anymore. So a submarine spamming spamming torps at you at 2km would not be spamming homing toprs, and it is very likely to miss. And even if it tries, it has to do it surfaced, or more likely at periscope depth, which means it can be detected by that battleship and hit by its secondary guns.

Even if is fully submerged, it can be detected by any ship that is within ~2km of it, unless it is at maximum depth. Even if it is at maximum depth and it has pinged within the last 20 seconds it can be detected by any ship that is within 2km from it.

If it is below periscope depth it cannot launch torpedoes at that battleship. First of all they cannot rise fast enough. Second it cannot aim because it doesn't have that predictor you get when you're on the surface an the torps are not homing that close...

For the submarine to launch homing torps at you, it has to be at least 4km away for any homing to happen, and even then it is difficult, because the torpedoes don't start homing immediately when launched, and then as soon as they get within 2.1km of the battleship they stop homing again. If you're smart you can use the information I gave you quite effectively to avoid submarine torps, as many smart players do.

So a true effective homing torp spamming is only possible at ranges of 5km or higher. Non homing torps can be used at ranges of 2.5km or higher, but getting this close is either a not very smart move for the submarine, or one made in desperation.

So what if homing stops at 2km or whatever.

The point is, that you can get close in a sub, and it won't matter one jot if the torps aren't homing, you will likely hit with every torp you fire.

Oh and do you really think that BB secondary guns will reliably hit a sub at periscope depth?

Secondary guns cannot even reliably hit another ship, let alone hit a sub.

Esp secondary guns on mid tier BB's.

[SlavicNoOb]

1 minute ago, Smegger213 said:

So what if homing stops at 2km or whatever.

The point is, that you can get close in a sub, and it won't matter one jot if the torps aren't homing, you will likely hit with every torp you fire.

Oh and do you really think that BB secondary guns will reliably hit a sub at periscope depth?

Secondary guns cannot even reliably hit another ship, let alone hit a sub.

Esp secondary guns on mid tier BB's.

You do realize that the submarine has abysmally small health poll right? And that it doesn't take much secondary fire from a battleship to kill it...

And you do realize that a submarine is supposed to do damage and sink ships, just like any other class... What exactly are you suggesting? Make subs useless?

[Smegger213]

25 minutes ago, dN00b said:

You do realize that the submarine has abysmally small health poll right? And that it doesn't take much secondary fire from a battleship to kill it...

And you do realize that a submarine is supposed to do damage and sink ships, just like any other class... What exactly are you suggesting? Make subs useless?

Whatever.

 

Like I have said before. There are only, you and a couple of others at the most that have said you love subs, in this thread.

The rest of us peasants hate them.

They will destroy the game.

For that reason, I have un-installed for good, unless they are removed.

[SlavicNoOb]

5 minutes ago, Smegger213 said:

Whatever.

 

Like I have said before. There are only, you and a couple of others at the most that have said you love subs, in this thread.

The rest of us peasants hate them.

They will destroy the game.

For that reason, I have un-installed for good, unless they are removed.

Well, we disagree on some key points, that's for sure.

And doesn't matter that you have un-installled, as long as you remain a constructive contributor at the forums.

[Smegger213]

2 minutes ago, dN00b said:

Well, we have disagree on some key points, that's for sure.

And doesn't matter that you have un-installled, as long as you remain a constructive contributor at the forums.

I stick around in the vain hope that Wargaming will listen.

Let players decide if they want subs. Have a separate mode with them in.

But Wargaming seem to be hell bent on destroying their own game.

Mark my words, there WILL be a lot less players playing, if subs stay.

[SlavicNoOb]

1 minute ago, Smegger213 said:

I stick around in the vain hope that Wargaming will listen.

Let players decide if they want subs. Have a separate mode with them in.

But Wargaming seem to be hell bent on destroying their own game.

Mark my words, there WILL be a lot less players playing, if subs stay.

Well I am not buying any premium submarines if I cannot play them in random battles, and I bet pretty much no one will.

[Smegger213]

2 minutes ago, dN00b said:

Well I am not buying any premium submarines if I cannot play them in random battles, and I bet pretty much no one will.

If you are so hot for subs. Why don't you go play U Boat, the Silent Hunter games, Cold Waters or other sub games?

Why do you want to play subs in such a stupid arcade un realistic way?

[ColonelPete]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Well, I'm pretty sure, that many large companies are not that much caring about every there customer ^^

 

And yes, that works. DDs can stay hidden for very long time. But also Submarines can get caught by Radar as well, RPF is pointing at them, too. And like other DDs can run into a DD, submarines also can run into other submarines especially with Hydrofon.

Also the Hydro on some ships can catch Submarines off guard.

 

You also have to consider, that DDs don't move with 30 knots max speed. That they don't get slowed down by increasing and decreasing altitude/depth, that they don't have their weapon angles very limited. That they don't take splashdamge by shells or even get additional pressure by ASW bombers. There is a counter weight.

Nobody said anything about caring about every customer.

 

Subs can be invisible to Radar, Hydro and RPF right next to you... No DD can do that.

And Subs are even rarer than DD, so it is quite easy for a Sub not to run into them, when you do not want to.

 

DD have to take to longer routes, thanks to be being more visible. That is what their speed is for. Still does not help you when you are in Radar range and sailing in the wrong direction and evasive actions slow down DD quite a bit.

And when you get your torp launchers knocked out from a hit that did not damage your ship, you know that DD can take splash damage.

1 hour ago, dN00b said:

Going behind enemy lines is very situational....

Well when this happens and the enemy sub is gone, then going behind enemy lines is very easy, since on many maps the enemy surface ships split and go at the opposing ends of the map to contest the cap points.

Destroyers present their own problems for battleships. When I played with the Kremlin in ranked, I rarely had battles with submarines, and when I did I almost never had trouble with one. Maybe I was lucky and they didn't go to my flank, or died early or were simply bad sub players, but I do not have a bad experience playing a battleship against subs.

Destroyers are a different matter. Whenever I would see the Shimakaze on the opposing team I knew that I would probably not have easy time being a battleship player. Once I was isolated and shadowed by a Shimakaze while I was running away from it and going towards a cap. Needless to say, it kept spawning torps at me and finally got me, with me having zero chance at doing anything against it since I could not detect it. Against a submarine at least you can send ASW planes in the direction of the pings and hit it reliably.

As I said.

When the enemy is stupid enough to let the middle open, you can sail through there in a cruiser. Incompetent enemies can let you get away with anything. Who needs a dive capability when the enemy gives you room to move?

Against DD you can dodge the torps and use caps as a ship detector. Subs can go through a cap without you noticing it.

 

[SlavicNoOb]

1 minute ago, Smegger213 said:

If you are so hot for subs. Why don't you go play U Boat, the Silent Hunter games, Cold Waters or other sub games?

Why do you want to play subs in such a stupid arcade un realistic way?

Because I have fun in warships. I like all ship classes, but I like torpedoes the most. It doesn't matter if it is destroyer torps, or aircraft carrier plane torps, or submarine torps. But submarine torps are the best because the submarine specializes in torps.

And I like the stealth game-play, the underwater world (although it needs a lot of work just as the rest of the maps), etc. And I like the fast paced arcade style of warships. Realistic games can get boring sometimes.

[Pikkozoikum]

49 minutes ago, Smegger213 said:

So what if homing stops at 2km or whatever.

The point is, that you can get close in a sub, and it won't matter one jot if the torps aren't homing, you will likely hit with every torp you fire.

Oh and do you really think that BB secondary guns will reliably hit a sub at periscope depth?

Secondary guns cannot even reliably hit another ship, let alone hit a sub.

Esp secondary guns on mid tier BB's.

I actually had that just a few matches ago. A submarine shot close range her torps, lost around 20k hp, then I killed the submarine with 100% hp in return, I'm fine with that trade

And Secondary can hit quite easily a submarine, since there is splashdamage against submarines, counts also for main guns against submarines ^^

[SlavicNoOb]

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I actually had that just a few matches ago. A submarine shot close range her torps, lost around 20k hp, then I killed the submarine with 100% hp in return, I'm fine with that trade

And Secondary can hit quite easily a submarine, since there is splashdamage against submarines, counts also for main guns against submarines ^^

Yes exactly. The splash damage is basically the shock-wave of HE shells hitting and exploding in the water near the submarine. The submarine shell is not very thick, so this shock-wave has a very easy time damaging the sub. It's the same way depth charges work, they're just bigger so they have a bigger effective radius.

[Pikkozoikum]

2 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Nobody said anything about caring about every customer.

But that's the point of

3 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

So companies do not need to care if customers like their products? Interesting. I hope you do not plan a career in sales

If there is enough demand, they won't care, if some don't like it.

 

And it's the case of submarines. Not everyone likes it.

 

4 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Subs can be invisible to Radar, Hydro and RPF right next to you... No DD can do that.

Yes, that's a mechanic of the submarines, because they don't have 20-30k HP and 40-50 knots. But also, they have to be

• At operating depth against Radar
• At maxium depth against Hydro and RPF
  • they are blind

 

So I don't see the point here, what a DD can't and a Submarine can. There is a trade for that...

 

I mean, we could also say. A submarine can't move with high speeds. A submarine can't use main guns. A submarine can't smoke allies. But I don't see a point in counting all the can's and can't 's

 

7 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

And Subs are even rarer than DD, so it is quite easy for a Sub not to run into them, when you do not want to.

Happens more often, than you think. Submarines often have the same plan. For example they will go rarely to the borders. They often are centered, or left/right centered.

 

9 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

DD have to take to longer routes, thanks to be being more visible. That is what their speed is for.

Wouldn't say that. DDs speed is not that high, because they have to take longer routes than subs :P

It's actualy one reason, why DDs are so influencial, because of their speed.

 

10 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Still does not help you when you are in Radar range and sailing in the wrong direction and evasive actions slow down DD quite a bit.

And if a submarine gets radared in surprise? Or hydroed, or hydrofoned? If a DD can get surprised by that, why not a submarine. Submarines are not at maximum depth from the start ^^

 

11 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

And when you get your torp launchers knocked out from a hit that did not damage your ship, you know that DD can take splash damage.

The difference is, that ships can take splash damage to their modules. Submarines can take splash damage to their Hull HP and their modules. That's a big difference.

 

[ColonelPete]

16 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

1. But that's the point of ...If there is enough demand, they won't care, if some don't like it. And it's the case of submarines. Not everyone likes it.
2. Yes, that's a mechanic of the submarines, because they don't have 20-30k HP and 40-50 knots.
3. So I don't see the point here, what a DD can't and a Submarine can. There is a trade for that...
4. I mean, we could also say. A submarine can't move with high speeds. A submarine can't use main guns. A submarine can't smoke allies. But I don't see a point in counting all the can's and can't 's
5. Happens more often, than you think. Submarines often have the same plan. For example they will go rarely to the borders. They often are centered, or left/right centered.
6. Wouldn't say that. DDs speed is not that high, because they have to take longer routes than subs :P It's actualy one reason, why DDs are so influencial, because of their speed.
7. And if a submarine gets radared in surprise? Or hydroed, or hydrofoned? If a DD can get surprised by that, why not a submarine. Submarines are not at maximum depth from the start ^^
8. The difference is, that ships can take splash damage to their modules. Submarines can take splash damage to their Hull HP and their modules. That's a big difference.

1. That was not his argument. He claimed that "There is nothing to like or dislike." about Subs as if liking them does not matter.
2. And all DD do not have that either. The faster a DD and the more HP he has, the easier the DD is to spot.
3. The point is that you cannot sink them, even when you have the upper hand. You have to wait till their diving energy is used up and that reduces the dynamic of the game even more. And when they are only DD hunting the Sub, you cannot even fight it even when it is fully submerged 5km from you. That way BB are even better Sub hunters than DD as DD have to move above the Sub first. And Subs are not that slow either.
4. You can still hit a DD moving at high speeds. A DD using main guns is usually easy to counter and smoking allies usually works only in divisions, which in turn completly counters a subs disadvantage of not spotting when deep diving.
5. Yeah, when players move straight forward, it happens. But with these players it does not matter if they play subs, DD, Cruisers, CV, BB or Tankers. The results will be quite similar.
6. They still have to take longer routes, unless you are player from point 5
7. A Sub can still dive and a Sub outspots more ships than DD.
8. It is still splash damage. Otherwise Subs would be extremly hard to hit. Just recently I aimed in front of a Sub, but the shells hit behind the Sub. Took me three salvos to notice that I was not hitting behind, but in front of the sub, it just looked that way because of the perspective.

[SlavicNoOb]

7 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

1. That was not his argument. He claimed that "There is nothing to like or dislike." about Subs as if liking them does not matter.
2. And all DD do not have that either. The faster a DD and the more HP he has, the easier the DD is to spot.
3. The point is that you cannot sink them, even when you have the upper hand. You have to wait till their diving energy is used up and that reduces the dynamic of the game even more. And when they are only DD hunting the Sub, you cannot even fight it even when it is fully submerged 5km from you. That way BB are even better Sub hunters than DD as DD have to move above the Sub first. And Subs are not that slow either.
4. You can still hit a DD moving at high speeds. A DD using main guns is usually easy to counter and smoking allies usually works only in divisions, which in turn completly counters a subs disadvantage of not spotting when deep diving.
5. Yeah, when players move straight forward, it happens. But with these players it does not matter if they play subs, DD, Cruisers, CV, BB or Tankers. The results will be quite similar.
6. They still have to take longer routes, unless you are player from point 5
7. A Sub can still dive and a Sub outspots more ships than DD.
8. It is still splash damage. Otherwise Subs would be extremly hard to hit. Just recently I aimed in front of a Sub, but the shells hit behind the Sub. Took me three salvos to notice that I was not hitting behind, but in front of the sub, it just looked that way because of the perspective.

All of this is just empty talk. It seems as if you have not played subs much (sry I haven't actually checked your stats) and you're talking purely from your experience with them as a surface ship player. Because from my perspective as a sub player all you said is wrong.

Subs being these amazing spotters is just false. Subs stay on the surface before they spot the first enemy ship in a battle, and this makes them vulnerable. Sure they can spot battleships and cruisers from far away and not be spotted themselves, but then again those ships will get spotted by anything because of their spotting radius. 

But when a submarine that's on the surface and moving toward or is inside a cap spots a dd, it usually means it has been spotted itself, or it is about to be within a couple of seconds. That means you ping or try to ping the dd and you dive. I would say half of the  time that dd has time to react and fire at you where you sustain some damage. But the danger doesn't end there, because now the other surface ships send ASW planes at your last know location, and you sustain more damage usually because underwater your maneuverability and speed are drastically lower (with the exception of the U-2501 which is faster under water).

So yes, subs can spot just like a dd, but they are vulnerable just like a dd. And just like with a dd, it is a combination of good/bad luck and player skill that determines if they survive and how long they survive in a particular battle. When I say luck, I mean how lucky or unlucky they are with support from their own team and how good the other team is at countering them.

Bottom line is, I have a very different experience with submarines than you. I do not feel invulnerable or invincible while playing a sub. Rather I feel this constant pressure to do damage, spot, sink ships, help my team win, and not get sunk myself, and it doesn't feel OP at all. Sometimes I have a great match and come up on top, other times I get sunk early. And I have a feeling that as more and more people learn the ropes and get good at playing submarines and against submarines, it will just get harder and harder for me as a sub player to do well in a battle.

[Sir_Sinksalot]

13 hours ago, Smegger213 said:

 

But Wargaming seem to be hell bent on destroying their own game.

Mark my words, there WILL be a lot less players playing, if subs stay.

 

Subs in this arcade game was a dumb idea from the get-go and I'm pretty sure that was outlined years ago and even the WoWS devs came to that same conclusion that subs in WoWS simply wouldn't work or suit the game.

 

The problem now is that at this point, because they've invested undoubtedly a lot of time and effort(and probably money) driving on with this submarine sht-show that they'd feel even more dumb to not keep going with it.

 

It's seems like a Captain Ahab approach at a glance however. It's important for a person or business to know when they fk'ed up or what they're doing is wrong or not working, to accept it, draw a line under it, cut losses and move on. Not continue to flog what's effectively a dead horse or try remedy something that cannot be. But this is a typical stubborn pig-headed Belarusian WG approach so you can expect this bs to both stay and continue to be expanded upon. 

 

Remember all the uproar about CV's, the 400+ rage pages? Has anything significant actually happened for all that? All I see is more CV's. Personally I don't mind CV's too much but you get my point, WG don't give a F and they'll do what they want to do, forums, testers, sand boxes etc, all a total waste of time. Same with WoT, SPG, WV's, they just keep driving on with it, they don't ever accept that sometimes they get it wrong. The only thing they will accept is that there was some balance issues with some things they added to their games but have this "We'll fix it" attitude and that's as far as WG stretch whenever they add something that's horribly imbalanced, but never remove it. The "We'll fix it" approach never really fixes the imbalance though, and sadly players that stay just get used to the additional crappy imbalance as part of the game.

 

There was that shallow and transparently disingenuous apology there recently, did anything really change? Here, have an insincere fake apology, a smidge of some tokens that wouldn't even cover the price of one of the crappy containers, and then they go back to being pig-headed buffoons as usual. With WG games, sadly it's a case of put up or shut up and by shut-up I mean sadly just leave. Even if their games ever went under directly as a result of new additions that trashed their game, they'll just put it down to gaming evolution making their games less popular and never admit that it was because they themselves trashed what was actually a pretty good collection of war games.

[Smegger213]

27 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

 

Subs in this arcade game was a dumb idea from the get-go and I'm pretty sure that was outlined years ago and even the WoWS devs came to that same conclusion that subs in WoWS simply wouldn't work or suit the game.

 

The problem now is that at this point, because they've invested undoubtedly a lot of time and effort(and probably money) driving on with this submarine sht-show that they'd feel even more dumb to not keep going with it.

 

It's seems like a Captain Ahab approach at a glance however. It's important for a person or business to know when they fk'ed up or what they're doing is wrong or not working, to accept it, draw a line under it, cut losses and move on. Not continue to flog what's effectively a dead horse or try remedy something that cannot be. But this is a typical stubborn pig-headed Belarusian WG approach so you can expect this bs to both stay and continue to be expanded upon. 

 

Remember all the uproar about CV's, the 400+ rage pages? Has anything significant actually happened for all that? All I see is more CV's. Personally I don't mind CV's too much but you get my point, WG don't give a F and they'll do what they want to do, forums, testers, sand boxes etc, all a total waste of time. Same with WoT, SPG, WV's, they just keep driving on with it, they don't ever accept that sometimes they get it wrong. The only thing they will accept is that there was some balance issues with some things they added to their games but have this "We'll fix it" attitude and that's as far as WG stretch whenever they add something that's horribly imbalanced, but never remove it. The "We'll fix it" approach never really fixes the imbalance though, and sadly players that stay just get used to the additional crappy imbalance as part of the game.

 

There was that shallow and transparently disingenuous apology there recently, did anything really change? Here, have an insincere fake apology, a smidge of some tokens that wouldn't even cover the price of one of the crappy containers, and then they go back to being pig-headed buffoons as usual. With WG games, sadly it's a case of put up or shut up and by shut-up I mean sadly just leave. Even if they're games go under because of new additions that trashed their game, they'll just put it down to gaming evolution making their games less popular instead and still never admit that it was because they themselves trashed what was actually a pretty good collection of war games.

Totally agree with you mate.

Wargaming are parasites they don't give one hoot about their own player base.

They always promise one thing one year, then renege on that promise further down the line.

 

Subs will NEVER be put into the game they said.

Then a few years down the line, we get subs put into the game.

Stupid arcade subs with unrealistic game mechanics such as stupid homing torps and unrealistic sub speeds.

A sub should only go 20 knots on the surface, and about 8 knots submerged. It should have NO homing torps and no stupid PING mechanics.

They should use the same torp firing mechanic, that every other ship in the game has to use.

 

Tons of CC's left the CC program due to Wargaming's aggressive monetisation policies, with loot crates etc.

What do we get from Wargaming, a half hearted apology, and yet more loot crates in the game.

Last week it was Transformers containers, a subject that is easily aimed at kids.

This week it is German Containers. They cannot just release a new line of ships, without first getting cash out of the community first with loot boxes.

[Hect0r_0f_Tr0y]

On 10/6/2021 at 11:05 AM, zmeul said:

the moment I see subs in random battles is the moment I quit playing WoWs for good

Bye

I for one like them and cant wait till a premium SUB becomes available

[Smegger213]

25 minutes ago, Hect0r_0f_Tr0y said:

Bye

I for one like them and cant wait till a premium SUB becomes available

Well, you too are in the minority.

Far more people hate them, than like them.

[Pukovnik7]

On 10/7/2021 at 9:11 AM, dN00b said:

I didn't see players quit ranked battles because of submarines. And the vast majority of players will not quit either when they see that submarines are not as much of a threat or a game changer as it's being touted.

Vast majority of players will not quit the game because there is no good alternative out there.

On 10/10/2021 at 11:54 PM, dN00b said:

As I said, it all boils down to part of the player base not liking the increase in game complexity. Bad players have a hard time adapting. Good players that used to have 60% win rates in the past, cannot sustain that in a more complex game. Simple as that. You want the game to remain on easy mode for one reason or another, and you don't have the guts to admit it.

Except submarines are having the opposite effect - much like CVs. Sure, technical complexity of the game is increasing - more classes, more gimmicks, all that stuff. But tactical complexity of the game is going down the drain, as many tactical moves become unviable and the only thing left is long-range camping spamfest.

 

Most tactically complex games I have played have always been at a) Tier VI - VII range, and b) had neither carriers nor submarines present in the match. Not really difficult to understand why, once you give it a thought.

[Smegger213]

1 hour ago, Pukovnik7 said:

Vast majority of players will not quit the game because there is no good alternative out there.

Except submarines are having the opposite effect - much like CVs. Sure, technical complexity of the game is increasing - more classes, more gimmicks, all that stuff. But tactical complexity of the game is going down the drain, as many tactical moves become unviable and the only thing left is long-range camping spamfest.

 

Most tactically complex games I have played have always been at a) Tier VI - VII range, and b) had neither carriers nor submarines present in the match. Not really difficult to understand why, once you give it a thought.

I tried many games in ranked with subs in them.

I decided, that as a surface ship player with no desire to play subs, it was just intolerable to play many surface ships against subs. Mainly when I played in a BB. Time and time again, I just got torp spammed from a sub. Getting destroyed 80% of the time.

So after awhile, I quit playing ranked.

Then when they put subs into random battles, I decided enough is enough.

The game has been un-installed, maybe for good.

I don't care that there maybe no alternative game out there yet.

I never wanted subs in the game. They will only destroy the surface ship game play in the long run.

[SuperDare83]

why has mino only depth charges with so few bombs??? PS please remove subs from randoms, the game with them is so so SOOOOO unenjoyable with them at the moment

[SnipingCat]

Reopening the thread. For future reference do not advertise or discuss account selling. Furthermore, you are free to discuss what you want but keep it in a civil tone.
100 posts has been removed due to off topic, discussing account selling, and general disrespect towards other players.

Kind regards, your moderation Team.
SnipingCat and @floribe2000

[Smegger213]

5 minutes ago, SnipingCat said:

Reopening the thread. For future reference do not advertise or discuss account selling. Furthermore, your free to discuss what you want but keep it in a civil tone.
100 posts has been removed due to off topic, discussing account selling, and general disrespect towards other players.

Kind regards, your moderation Team.
SnipingCat and @floribe2000

Thank you.

 

Lets hope players commenting can be civil and on topic from now on.

[SnipingCat]

Reopening thread yet again. It would be nice if we could go more than 1 hour before I need to close it again....

[SuperDare83]

you know what would be nice? A meaningful acknowledgement from WG on the torrent of negative feedback of subs in Randoms and their immediate plans to address...