Submarines in Random Battles

[OMG_Noob]

On 10/6/2021 at 12:01 PM, _Zebaddy_ said:

Just no no no 

 

Navel warfare has all types of ships. 

Accept it or play some other game! 

[SlavicNoOb]

7 minutes ago, mg106 said:

I guess my analysis hit home a bit too hard, hit a few citadels in your broadside ship :D

 

So what you are saying is that the upgrades/commander skills need to be nerfed for a beginner to have a better chance of getting stuff done in the game? 
 

I guess you are not open to any form of discussion, so why are you still here? It`s like a politician shouting out his opinion with his fingers in his ears. What are you trying to achieve? You don`t want to listen to anyone, so why should we listen to you?

Forum is a place where people hold discussions. You just 'shout' and don't listen, and interpret things as you see fit, ignore points you do not like, like what you did with the commander skills there.

[ColonelPete]

1 minute ago, dN00b said:

Forum is a place where people hold discussions. You just 'shout' and don't listen, and interpret things as you see fit, ignore points you do not like, like what you did with the commander skills there.

Like someone who ignores that many players consider it boring to hunt subs, you cannot see for minutes?

[mg106]

1 minute ago, dN00b said:

like what you did with the commander skills there.

I don`t think you understand my question, but just blow over it as you assume its anti-sub propaganda? It was a genuine question whether the captain skills/equipment buffs a sub too much to the point whereby a beginner cannot have any impact on the match while the guy putting a lot of recourses in it may have too much impact? But I guess I can see the answer from you coming from miles away....

[SlavicNoOb]

edited

Wargaming adds a new class, and the ships of that new class should perform on par with other ships of their tier. There is nothing to like or dislike.

You guys, here and some youtubers, complain about the homing, about how submarines sink ships, about how submarines do damage, and how submarines are "invisible".
 

Well what is your point? Are submarines not supposed to deal damage? Are submarines not supposed to sink ships? Are submarines not supposed to rely primarily on stealth in order to sneak up/sneak around and survive? What are they supposed to do instead--fly and look pretty?

[Nadrick]

Hi there,

Please avoid personal attacks and insults. Remember, you can express your opinion without insults or provoking attitudes. Feel free to debate/Discuss constructively. 

 

Thank you.

-Moxyh
 

[ColonelPete]

6 minutes ago, dN00b said:

Wargaming adds a new class, and the ships of that new class should perform on par with other ships of their tier. There is nothing to like or dislike.

So companies do not need to care if customers like their products? Interesting. I hope you do not plan a career in sales

7 minutes ago, dN00b said:

Well what is your point?

How often do you need to get told this. They are boring to play against.

They also make the game even less dynamic and the game is not very dynamic to begin with...

[Pikkozoikum]

11 minutes ago, dN00b said:

Wargaming adds a new class, and the ships of that new class should perform on par with other ships of their tier. There is nothing to like or dislike.

You guys, here and some youtubers, complain about the homing, about how submarines sink ships, about how submarines do damage, and how submarines are "invisible".
 

Well what is your point? Are submarines not supposed to deal damage? Are submarines not supposed to sink ships? Are submarines not supposed to rely primarily on stealth in order to sneak up/sneak around and survive? What are they supposed to do instead--fly and look pretty?

It would be actually funny to see the reaction of an alternative universe, where DDs didn't exist in the game only BBs and cruisers of IJN, German, USN, maybe RN BBs and Russian

And then they would implement DDs after years

 

Imagine comments like

"DDs are not historically like that, they were escorts and not solo hunter, which melt BBs with their 100mm guns"

"DDs have broken mechanics, they can use smoke, which were never used for active naval combat"

"DDs are way too fast"

"DDs attacking invisible"

"DD too influencial and strong"

 

etc :D

[Pikkozoikum]

2 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

So companies do not need to care if customers like their products? Interesting. I hope you do not plan a career in sales

If there is enough demand, they won't care, if some don't like it

[SlavicNoOb]

7 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

So companies do not need to care if customers like their products? Interesting. I hope you do not plan a career in sales

How often do you need to get told this. They are boring to play against.

They also make the game even less dynamic and the game is not very dynamic to begin with...

1. I am a customer too, as are other people that have been waiting for submarines ever since they were announced.
2. They're not boring for me, if they were I wouldn't be playing them.
3. They're not making the game less dynamic. The problem is that most players in random do not know how to play them, and they do not know how to play against them. I have seen some not even using DCP when pinged even if pinged twice. I suspect most of these are people that play like once a week because they're simply busy with life, or children that haven't figured out how to play with and against subs. Kids do figure it out soon tho, they're quck learners, but the younger ones do not adapt that fast, and I suspect some very young children play Warships during the day.

There needs to be some training on how to play with and against submarines. There are great videos on youtube that teach exactly this, but I suspect most people haven't seen them. And those videos I'm referring to, some of them are by youtubers that are generally against submarines, yet they have made great suggestions on how to counter submarines, but someone has to watch them.

[ColonelPete]

3 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

If there is enough demand, they won't care, if some don't like it

Only when you have a monopoly, otherwise people will buy the good from someone else.

4 minutes ago, dN00b said:

1. I am a customer too, as are other people that have been waiting for submarines ever since they were announced.
2. They're not boring for me, if they were I wouldn't be playing them.
3. They're not making the game less dynamic. The problem is that most players in random do not know how to play them, and they do not know how to play against them. I have seen some not even using DCP when pinged even if pinged twice. I suspect most of these are people that play like once a week because they're simply busy with life, or children that haven't figured out how to play with and against subs. Kids do figure it out soon tho, they're quck learners, but the younger ones do not adapt that fast, and I suspect some very young children play Warships during the day.

There needs to be some training on how to play with and against submarines. There are great videos on youtube that teach exactly this, but I suspect most people haven't seen them. And those videos I'm referring to, some of them are by youtubers that are generally against submarines, yet they have made great suggestions on how to counter submarines, but someone has to watch them.

1. So it would be ok to design submarine gameplay that even you would not like, you would still spend money on them?
2. I was talking about players playing against them
3. How is keeping your distance from subs not making the game less dynamic?

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, ColonelPete said:

Only when you have a monopoly, otherwise people will buy the good from someone else.

1. So it would be ok to design submarine gameplay that even you would not like, you would still spend money on them?
2. I was talking about players playing against them
3. How is keeping your distance from subs not making the game less dynamic?

 

Ye, but I mean, if there is a demand of the customer, then you will sell the product and you won't care, if there are some, who don't like it

 

and 3. why is it more dynamic, if we replace a submarine with a DD, HE spammer, or BB? The thing is, the team size makes it less dynamic and campy. The more ships you have, the more you have to hide from a huge enemy team, that might focus you.
You can see that in the 3vs3 brawls, they are very brawly, you don't have 3 BBs on 20km or 2 HE cruiser behind islands with 2 DDs around

[SlavicNoOb]

Just now, ColonelPete said:

Only when you have a monopoly, otherwise people will buy the good from someone else.

1. So it would be ok to design submarine gameplay that even you would not like, you would still spend money on them?
2. I was talking about players playing against them
3. How is keeping your distance from subs not making the game less dynamic?

You're not supposed to keep your distance from them. I mean you should to some extent depending on what class you're playing, but that goes for destroyers too, if you're playing a battleship. And generally speaking if you're a dd, you better keep your distance from cruisers. So what is the point there?

And keeping distance is a terrible over-generalization. Destroyers may want to keep their distance, but more often than not are very effective at killing/suppressing submarines. I know because lately I play submarines a lot as you might suspect, and when I see a dd running, I try to ping it and if i do, I launch torpedoes and smile... But if that dd (or multiple dd's) starts running towards me, I'm in deep trouble.

And just getting spotted in a sub is terrible. Good teams focus with ASW and ruin your day fast. Bad teams do not focus, they tunnel vision with shooting other surface ships and you have a field day.

Good CV keeps you spotted, puts a fighter on top of you to keep you spotted so you run out of dive capacity fast.

All of this makes playing submarines very dependent on team play. If your team doesn't support you, you are likely to die and leave the battle with a submarine on the other team but none on yours. If the enemy team works together they can counter the submarine very effectively.

This makes the submarine an addition to the game that makes the game much more dynamic. The problem is that a lot of people play solo, i.e. don't know how to team-play.

I have a feeling you will just ignore everything I just wrote and keep repeating that "submarines are bad for the game".

[ColonelPete]

2 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

Ye, but I mean, if there is a demand of the customer, then you will sell the product and you won't care, if there are some, who don't like it

 

and 3. why is it more dynamic, if we replace a submarine with a DD, HE spammer, or BB? The thing is, the team size makes it less dynamic and campy. The more ships you have, the more you have to hide from a huge enemy team, that might focus you.
You can see that in the 3vs3 brawls, they are very brawly, you don't have 3 BBs on 20km or 2 HE cruiser behind islands with 2 DDs around

There is no demand, when customer does not like your product and they can get the product someplace else or do not need your product in the first place.

You can create demand, when people like your product. See smartphones. Nobody wanted them, before they were invented.

 

You can spot a DD more easily. You can push vs a DD more easily. You can damage a DD more easily.

3 minutes ago, dN00b said:

You're not supposed to keep your distance from them. I mean you should to some extent depending on what class you're playing, but that goes for destroyers too, if you're playing a battleship. And generally speaking if you're a dd, you better keep your distance from cruisers. So what is the point there?

And keeping distance is a terrible over-generalization. Destroyers may want to keep their distance, but more often than not are very effective at killing/suppressing submarines. I know because lately I play submarines a lot as you might suspect, and when I see a dd running, I try to ping it and if i do, I launch torpedoes and smile... But if that dd (or multiple dd's) starts running towards me, I'm in deep trouble.

And just getting spotted in a sub is terrible. Good teams focus with ASW and ruin your day fast. Bad teams do not focus, they tunnel vision with shooting other surface ships and you have a field day.

Good CV keeps you spotted, puts a fighter on top of you to keep you spotted so you run out of dive capacity fast.

All of this makes playing submarines very dependent on team play. If your team doesn't support you, you are likely to die and leave the battle with a submarine on the other team but none on yours. If the enemy team works together they can counter the submarine very effectively.

This makes the submarine an addition to the game that makes the game much more dynamic. The problem is that a lot of people play solo, i.e. don't know how to team-play.

I have a feeling you will just ignore everything I just wrote and keep repeating that "submarines are bad for the game".

But you are... as you said yourself.

As a BB you need to be in the shadow of a friendly DD or Cruiser, the distance to the enemy DD does not matter as long as you do that.

As DD you only need distance to radar cruisers and in case you did not notice, people are complaining about the number of radars in game as this makes the game less dynamic...

 

DD are effective vs Subs, when the Subs are overextended. Something you manage by baiting the Sub or its teammates. You cannot take out a Sub that is not overextended. When a DD rushes in, it usually gets sunk.

Planes do not suddenly appear. A Sub player can dive in time. And we do not have CV in every sub match...

We do not have good teamplay for over six years. Making that a requirement to counter Subs should make it obvious why the class is problematic.

Only when you think that keeping your distance is dynamic gameplay.

[SlavicNoOb]

8 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

There is no demand, when customer does not like your product and they can get the product someplace else or do not need your product in the first place.

You can create demand, when people like your product. See smartphones. Nobody wanted them, before they were invented.

 

You can spot a DD more easily. You can push vs a DD more easily. You can damage a DD more easily.

But you are... as you said yourself.

As a BB you need to be in the shadow of a friendly DD or Cruiser, the distance to the enemy DD does not matter as long as you do that.

As DD you only need distance to radar cruisers and in case you did not notice, people are complaining about the number of radars in game as this makes the game less dynamic...

 

DD are effective vs Subs, when the Subs are overextended. Something you manage by baiting the Sub or its teammates. You cannot take out a Sub that is not overextended. When a DD rushes in, it usually gets sunk.

Planes do not suddenly appear. A Sub player can dive in time. And we do not have CV in every sub match...

We do not have good teamplay for over six years. Making that a requirement to counter Subs should make it obvious why the class is problematic.

Only when you think that keeping your distance is dynamic gameplay.

This only shows that you have little experience playing submarines.

A submarine that plays at the edge of its torp range is not very effective. When you fire torps at ships that far and ping them from that range, they have a lot of time to react and evade.

The submarine is most effective at medium to close ranges. Sometimes even going behind the enemy lines, ping and launching torps, causing panic and mayhem. They get killed more by being distracted by you than by your torpedoes. Of course this is risky, and often it ends up bad, but equally often it works and when it does it's super fun.

 

[Pikkozoikum]

4 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

There is no demand, when customer does not like your product and they can get the product someplace else or do not need your product in the first place.

You can create demand, when people like your product. See smartphones. Nobody wanted them, before they were invented.

No, that is under a wrong assumption. The company already knows, that there is a number, that will like it. And wha I mean: If they know, they will make a win, then they might don't care about other customers, who won't like it.

 

5 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

You can spot a DD more easily. You can push vs a DD more easily. You can damage a DD more easily.

I see that different, I would say you can spot a Submarine more easily. It is way slower and has less vision. That also makes a push more easier, and the damaging as well, since you also get ASW as an additional armament.

 

A good submarine player might be never seen, same as a good DD player (though with torpedo focus).

 

But these comparison are quite hard to make, imo and can't be generalized like that

[anonym_0oKN3vO3JZ91]

15 minuti fa, Pikkozoikum ha scritto:

3. why is it more dynamic, if we replace a submarine with a DD, HE spammer, or BB?

This question is absolutely embarrassing.
Obviously the game develops differently if there are, for example 2 or 3 or 4 dds. Since the standard lineup includes 4 DD, what happens if I add the equivalent of 2 other DDS?
Will I have a dynamic game?
Nope.
(I'm afraid that the word "dynamic" in this context means that the BBS must play more than 15 km from the closest cap and never get closer until the stealth ships have not been eliminated or fleeing, which is what is  happens and will happen more and more. Granted that at some point anyone slams against the cannons of the BBS, the whole game is less "dynamic" which means more lemming trains, more sniping, more shitful boring games. This is what it means "More or Less Dynamic").

[ColonelPete]

46 minutes ago, dN00b said:

A submarine that plays at the edge of its torp range is not very effective. When you fire torps at ships that far and ping them from that range, they have a lot of time to react and evade.

The submarine is most effective at medium to close ranges. Sometimes even going behind the enemy lines, ping and launching torps, causing panic and mayhem. They get killed more by being distracted by you than by your torpedoes. Of course this is risky, and often it ends up bad, but equally often it works and when it does it's super fun.

I did not claim that either.

That is why going behind enemy lines is a bad idea early in the game. No support, no spotting. A quite common rookie move. A good move is something that works the majority of the time.

49 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

No, that is under a wrong assumption. The company already knows, that there is a number, that will like it. And wha I mean: If they know, they will make a win, then they might don't care about other customers, who won't like it.

 

I see that different, I would say you can spot a Submarine more easily. It is way slower and has less vision. That also makes a push more easier, and the damaging as well, since you also get ASW as an additional armament.

 

A good submarine player might be never seen, same as a good DD player (though with torpedo focus).

 

But these comparison are quite hard to make, imo and can't be generalized like that

Then the company cares about people liking it....

No. You cannot sail around and over a DD for minutes with RPF, Hydro and Radar without spotting it. That is just not possible. With the a sub that can happen.

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, ColonelPete said:

Then the company cares about people liking it....

No. You cannot sail around and over a DD for minutes with RPF, Hydro and Radar without spotting it. That is just not possible. With the a sub that can happen.

Well, I'm pretty sure, that many large companies are not that much caring about every there customer ^^

 

And yes, that works. DDs can stay hidden for very long time. But also Submarines can get caught by Radar as well, RPF is pointing at them, too. And like other DDs can run into a DD, submarines also can run into other submarines especially with Hydrofon.

Also the Hydro on some ships can catch Submarines off guard.

 

You also have to consider, that DDs don't move with 30 knots max speed. That they don't get slowed down by increasing and decreasing altitude/depth, that they don't have their weapon angles very limited. That they don't take splashdamge by shells or even get additional pressure by ASW bombers. There is a counter weight.

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

59 minutes ago, oo_PhOeNiX_oo said:

This question is absolutely embarrassing.

ok.

 

1 hour ago, oo_PhOeNiX_oo said:

Obviously the game develops differently if there are, for example 2 or 3 or 4 dds. Since the standard lineup includes 4 DD, what happens if I add the equivalent of 2 other DDS?

And it will be about the same dynamic, no matter if 3 DDs or 5 DDs, as long your have large teams. You would need a 12 DD vs 12 DD match, to get a different game

3DDs + 1 SS or 4 DD also make no difference in a 12vs12

 

1 hour ago, oo_PhOeNiX_oo said:

(I'm afraid that the word "dynamic" in this context means that the BBS must play more than 15 km from the closest cap and never get closer until the stealth ships have not been eliminated or fleeing, which is what is  happens and will happen more and more. Granted that at some point anyone slams against the cannons of the BBS, the whole game is less "dynamic" which means more lemming trains, more sniping, more shitful boring games. This is what it means "More or Less Dynamic").

Remove SS and DDs, only cruisers and BBs and you will still have somewhat the same Dynamic game.

No Battleship will push into the enemy, if behind him are 2 more BBs and 2 Crusiers, while the enemy has also 2 cruisers and 3 BBs.

The pushing battleship, that decides to push, will get focused by 5 ships. That's why we have that passive gameplay.

 

There are of course factors, that makes it worse or better like Radar against DDs makes it even more passive. But that is a factor and not the main reason. The main reason is the base game design of big teams with large ranges, that keep everyone away from pushing, otherwise they get focused down.

[Zespetjest]

You 2 submarine guys really think that 90knots, homing torps from vessel which have 2km concealment (you know when and how) is good for this game? Dear God...

Not to mention a 2 sub div...

[SlavicNoOb]

28 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

I did not claim that either.

That is why going behind enemy lines is a bad idea early in the game. No support, no spotting. A quite common rookie move. A good move is something that works the majority of the time.

Then the company cares about people liking it....

No. You cannot sail around and over a DD for minutes with RPF, Hydro and Radar without spotting it. That is just not possible. With the a sub that can happen.

Going behind enemy lines is very situational. If you manage to kill the enemy sub early, and I have been doing this almost every other battle since there are a lot of rookie submarine players out there, and the areas where the submarines go at the start of the battle are predictable--they go to wide open spaces with no or few islands so that they can be effective with their torps. Got myself a bunch of first blood achievements because of this actually.

Well when this happens and the enemy sub is gone, then going behind enemy lines is very easy, since on many maps the enemy surface ships split and go at the opposing ends of the map to contest the cap points.

Destroyers present their own problems for battleships. When I played with the Kremlin in ranked, I rarely had battles with submarines, and when I did I almost never had trouble with one. Maybe I was lucky and they didn't go to my flank, or died early or were simply bad sub players, but I do not have a bad experience playing a battleship against subs.

Destroyers are a different matter. Whenever I would see the Shimakaze on the opposing team I knew that I would probably not have easy time being a battleship player. Once I was isolated and shadowed by a Shimakaze while I was running away from it and going towards a cap. Needless to say, it kept spawning torps at me and finally got me, with me having zero chance at doing anything against it since I could not detect it. Against a submarine at least you can send ASW planes in the direction of the pings and hit it reliably.

[Smegger213]

1 minute ago, dN00b said:

Destroyers are a different matter. Whenever I would see the Shimakaze on the opposing team I knew that I would probably not have easy time being a battleship player. Once I was isolated and shadowed by a Shimakaze while I was running away from it and going towards a cap. Needless to say, it kept spawning torps at me and finally got me, with me having zero chance at doing anything against it since I could not detect it.

I knew you would be back matey.

You just could not stay away.

I thought you had said all you wanted to say in this discussion?

 

Its funny, that your Shimakaze story reminds me of how I feel when I am playing a BB and a sub decides to focus me.

But at least a DD cannot get to within 2km of me, and spam homing torps at me.

In a saying from Dragons Den, "for that reason, I am out".

[anonym_0oKN3vO3JZ91]

10 minuti fa, Pikkozoikum ha scritto:

And it will be about the same dynamic, no matter if 3 DDs or 5 DDs, as long your have large teams. You would need a 12 DD vs 12 DD match, to get a different game

3DDs + 1 SS or 4 DD also make no difference in a 12vs12 

It has long been my opinion that 4 DDs in a 12 vs 12 game are too many and that having 4 DDs is one of the causes (along with others) that causes the game to become so static.
Adding even 1 or 2 subs only makes the situation even worse, without considering the absurd mechanics of that specific class of ships.

14 minuti fa, Pikkozoikum ha scritto:

Remove SS and DDs, only cruisers and BBs and you will still have somewhat the same Dynamic game.

No Battleship will push into the enemy, if behind him are 2 more BBs and 2 Crusiers, while the enemy has also 2 cruisers and 3 BBs.

The pushing battleship, that decides to push, will get focused by 5 ships. That's why we have that passive gameplay.

 

I totally disagree. The ships are not evenly spread on the map and each has its own peculiar characteristics that make it more or less effective in certain situations. Each game creates a strong and a weak side, so battleships or cruisers would not necessarily be "forced" at the bottom of the map. They are if they have no hope against an invisible enemy with no real counterplay.
It seems obvious to me.

 

20 minuti fa, Pikkozoikum ha scritto:

The main reason is the base game design of big teams with large ranges, that keep everyone away from pushing, otherwise they get focused down.

There are a lot of ships with a "short range" that can be fun to play (I'm not giving examples), but they can't do what they could do best because their game would last 5 minutes and the main problem wouldn't be big fat battleship playing at the bottom of the map.

[SlavicNoOb]

32 minutes ago, Smegger213 said:

I knew you would be back matey.

You just could not stay away.

I thought you had said all you wanted to say in this discussion?

 

Its funny, that your Shimakaze story reminds me of how I feel when I am playing a BB and a sub decides to focus me.

But at least a DD cannot get to within 2km of me, and spam homing torps at me.

In a saying from Dragons Den, "for that reason, I am out".

Torpedoes stop homing when they get within 2.1km of a battleship, meaning from that point on they start going straight and do not turn anymore. So a submarine spamming spamming torps at you at 2km would not be spamming homing toprs, and it is very likely to miss. And even if it tries, it has to do it surfaced, or more likely at periscope depth, which means it can be detected by that battleship and hit by its secondary guns.

Even if is fully submerged, it can be detected by any ship that is within ~2km of it, unless it is at maximum depth. Even if it is at maximum depth and it has pinged within the last 20 seconds it can be detected by any ship that is within 2km from it.

If it is below periscope depth it cannot launch torpedoes at that battleship. First of all they cannot rise fast enough. Second it cannot aim because it doesn't have that predictor you get when you're on the surface an the torps are not homing that close...

For the submarine to launch homing torps at you, it has to be at least 4km away for any homing to happen, and even then it is difficult, because the torpedoes don't start homing immediately when launched, and then as soon as they get within 2.1km of the battleship they stop homing again. If you're smart you can use the information I gave you quite effectively to avoid submarine torps, as many smart players do.

So a true effective homing torp spamming is only possible at ranges of 5km or higher. Non homing torps can be used at ranges of 2.5km or higher, but getting this close is either a not very smart move for the submarine, or one made in desperation.