[PSA] Submarines participating in Random Battles in update 0.10.9.

[Yedwy]

41 minutes ago, Crysantos said:

There's still a chance that they won't make it into the game as regular part like other classes but it's a more likely scenario that they will with some changes based on data and feedback.

Really? What are you prepared to bet me that devs declare the subs are ready for full release in the 0.10.10 or 11 at the most and just ignore everything?

[Miragetank90]

Regarding homing torps, I highly doubt it would be removed, more likely the best you can expect would be tweaks, but the mechanic will stay. 

 

This is for the same reasons that we have subs with nuke-sub speeds and super-cavitating torpedoes landing in the live servers.

Like homing torps, WG believes subs need these features to make them work, for gameplay purposes and also their popularity, and they consider homing itself to be a core mechanic of said gameplay.

Which is why all the feedback to remove it outright is being ignored. They don't think that subs will work and be popular enough without it. 

 

In the end, all this is the result of trying to fit round pegs into square holes. 

[Cammo1962]

19 hours ago, Crysantos said:

Better communication doesn't equal making a decision for such a complex topic as the introduction of a new class based purely on the basis of forum sentiment. I'm a forumite myself, have been before I joined this company and will always be one at my heart, but the feedback here isn't necessarily representative for the larger playerbase. This doesn't devalue or the importance of your feedback here but it's important to understand that the test of subs in randoms equals not trying to do a better job at communication and working with the feedback that we get.

 

If you take a step back and look at what we already did the last few weeks in terms of decisions and communication, do you really think it's true that this isn't the case? We did the following:

• Changed our position on Moskva camo compensation retroactively and apply the same policy for Khaba replacement.
• Involved our playerbase in the design process for a new map via voting.
• Shared detail information about current bugs and state of them, plus offering a compensation.
• Gave a very long, detailed explanation with our reasoning behind the decisions we make with Subs and did a lot of changes based predominantly on feedback for the class and its counterplay.
• Announced next clan battle season is played without CVs.
• Announced what resources ships will be available for in the near future.

Well @Crysantos we are talking about subs not this so please keep it to the subject, but this one is good enough.

[MementoMori_6030]

Vor 3 Minuten, Miragetank90 sagte:

In the end, all this is the result of trying to fit round pegs into square holes. 

Which is totally possible if a >= 2r

[piritskenyer]

19 hours ago, Crysantos said:

[...]

And please stay constructive here, the intended insult here won't help you make your point, it actually does the exact opposite.

[...]

 

With all due respect to the EU team, on a Company level, that's like the pot calling the kettle black. It's been months that the community was effectively insulted by the devs, being told we don't know what we're talking about and that we're just a vocal minority and as such, our opinion doesn't matter. 

 

 

The main problems I still see with submarines are a couple of things:

• Torpedo homing. This is the big one for me.
  • More specifically, the ping and counterping mechanic is badly designed. The recharge time of a ping is 10 seconds (IIRC), while the quickest DCP reload, if I'm not mistaken, is around 35 seconds (Not counting soviet BB's). This presents us with a very obvious problem: You cannot defend against pings. You simply just cannot. The torpedo ranges involved make it near impossible to defend against actively homing torpedoes at one point or another, especially if damage that needs to be repaired is involved, such as rudder or engines. 
    This effectively overloads the DCP consumable, where one already has to make a cost/benefit analysis before using said consumable, calculating wether it is likely/possible that critical damage is going to follow immediately after using the consumable. If it is also used to delete homing pings, this analysis gets very badly reduced, as the consumable is suddenly required to prevent critical damage, instead of controling it. And since it is going to be on cooldown for at least the next 35-40 seconds, the ship can be retargeted and hit regardless. 
  • Which leads us neatly to another point: Torpedo bonii. Torps that follow pings partially or completely bypass torpedo protection measures, making them insanely powerful. This would be fine if making a torpedo lock was difficult or breaking torpedo lock was easy. This is presently not the case. If one manages to break torpedo lock, they probably have their DCP on cooldown, which means that the next torp lock is going to set at least one flood and do a truckload of damage, and with DCP on cooldown, the sub gets a cake, gets to eat it and keep it. 
• Submarines can hide away from ranged damage. Sure, dive time isn't unlimited (thankfully), but a submarine can dive to avoid being shot at if they manage to get out of position. In order to depth charge them, a DD or CA/CL needs to drive over them and drop depth charges on top of them (assuming ASW mortars, lightweight ASW torpedolaunchers or ASW torpedo carrying missile launchers aren't introduced), which in most cases means going far out of position, into the sight of the enemy team getting shot at. And who wants to do that.

 

Overall, I think submarines are going to be horrible for overall game health. Teams are going to be pushed backward, with neither team really wanting to push into the middle zones where they can get spotted, pinged and destroyed by submarines with relative ease, so the entire game will just devolve into a grindmatch worse than conservative TX games already are. I wouldn't be surprised if there were suddenly a lot more games that end because the timer runs down and whichever team with more points win rather than having wipeouts or one team running up their points or running the enemy's points down. In other words, much more 20 minute games, which wouldn't exactly serve the company well...

[anonym_cwVecOS6ecVy]

53 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

Regarding homing torps, I highly doubt it would be removed, more likely the best you can expect would be tweaks, but the mechanic will stay.

Keep in mind they will already remove paired homing torpedos, so subs can single launch them to neutralize enemy DCP far more effectively. This was already decided before subs are going live to randoms. What else will we have to expect?!

[MementoMori_6030]

Vor 13 Minuten, Von_Pruss sagte:

What else will we have to expect?!

TRB?

[Procrastes]

"For example, judging by test results, you enjoyed dropping depth charges." 

 

That's your conclusion? Really? 

 

Oh, sure. I mean, if I end up in a battle with submarines on the opposing team, I will do my level best to drop depth charges on them. Hopefully this will sink them, and I can enjoy the rest of the battle in a submarine-free environment. But I prefer my battles without submarines to begin with, thank you very much... not that I am going to have that choice, apparently. 

[anonym_cwVecOS6ecVy]

1 minute ago, Procrastes said:

"For example, judging by test results, you enjoyed dropping depth charges." 

 

Really? That's your conclusion? 

 

Oh, sure. I mean, if I end up in a battle with submarines on the opposing team, I will do my level best to drop depth charges on them. But I prefer my battles without submarines, thank you very much... not that I am going to have that choice, apparently. 

This was truly hilarious. Implement a new cancer class to the game. When people (try to) fight it, use the fact this class is being fought as argument players want submarines and enjoy them.  This reaches some form of high level brainwashing already.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

1 hour ago, SHDRKN4792 said:

Ah, I see my *feedback* wasn't good enough to be worth mentioning. Noted.

Mine was deleted and awarded with a warning point - seems to me that I hit a nerve with it. ^^

[Yedwy]

I have a suggestion for WG, how about you implement a suicide button in the UI so when we get 4 subs and a CV per side we can just go for the next battle without wasting our time...

[1MajorKoenig]

1 hour ago, Miragetank90 said:

Regarding homing torps, I highly doubt it would be removed, more likely the best you can expect would be tweaks, but the mechanic will stay. 

 

This is for the same reasons that we have subs with nuke-sub speeds and super-cavitating torpedoes landing in the live servers.

Like homing torps, WG believes subs need these features to make them work, for gameplay purposes and also their popularity, and they consider homing itself to be a core mechanic of said gameplay.

Which is why all the feedback to remove it outright is being ignored. They don't think that subs will work and be popular enough without it. 

 

In the end, all this is the result of trying to fit round pegs into square holes. 

Possibly but that is nonsense. Subs would probably work even much better without this stupid homing shipe. It would probably make subs even fun and interesting - while they are dull right now 

[S_h_i_v_a]

Diablo 2 has just been resurrected. 

Gloria in excelsis deo.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

1 hour ago, S_h_i_v_a said:

Diablo 2 has just been resurrected. 

Gloria in excelsis deo.

No contest, 39.95 = insta buy ^^

Bought Steam offer for MortalCombat 11 ultimate and Injustice 2 legendary editions for good measure. 

 

No premium ship or garbage crate gambling collection can beat that :D

[quickr]

3 hours ago, Crysantos said:

Insults will never work and it will only lead to a situation where those people you want to listen to you will shut their ears because you overstep boundaries. I don't get why anybody would think that this will achieve anything, be it in game or in reality. I asked this before and will ask this again - in a scenario of where we don't agree with some feedback points and don't change them, how can we show that constructive feedback is taken into account? We showed here that we read your feedback, that we consider it and explain our position why for certain topics we have a different opinion, while for some other aspects we made changes based on that feedback, like DE subs performance, like adding ASW to all ships, etc.?

 

If it's a matter of "either change all of this or it means you ignore us", then we will never be able to do that because there will be decisions that might differ from feedback.

 

Insults usually come out of frustrating when other side just keeps ignoring you. Insults come out of anger when you see something you love and enjoy being dragged thru the mud by people who just don't care.

 

Clear feedback is: 1) Competitive players don't want CVs in CBs, CBs should be tier 10 and 2) subs have no place in a PvP game modes.

On top of that, why did you remove flags for achievements? Where is score timer mod? Why is you API not being updated?

 

Those are things we as a community, as players care about. Not some 7 days premium for my birthday or choosing which color pallet next map will have or how will you distribute next ships or how many bugs you got in the game. Last one being completely normal in any other game, but WG is saying this like it's some grand achievement.

 

[MadBadDave]

Ok, expect many complaints from players teamed with a NON COM SUB !!!!!!!!

 

WG say they listen;  WHEN ???.

 

The bulk of the player base DO NOT want subs in randoms !!.   
 

Is WG so incompetent that they cannot implement a Sub only mode,  no don’t answer that we already know they screw up more than they don’t !.

[Zen71_sniper]

Honestly, we are just wasting our time - here and in the game.

 

While @Crysantos and @YabbaCoe might be nice guys in personal life and get some sympathy for bravely doing their job (and that is what they are doing - dodging, gaslighting and sugarcoating), they are WG employees and have to toe the line.

 

The fact is that WG is chasing money and money only - longevity of the game and player satisfaction is a secondary consideration - if at all.... 

 

If you want a developer that appreciates you as a client, sadly, you are at the wrong place....   

 

From my own POV, after 24K battles and from playing 10+ games per day -  I have heavily disinvested and  I am just occasionally playing one or two randoms and collecting goodies in Coop.

 

I have moved on and I suggest for the sake of your sanity do the same. There is something called boiled frog syndrome and there is no need to be a frog ;)

 

 

[Capra76]

2 hours ago, Procrastes said:

"For example, judging by test results, you enjoyed dropping depth charges." 

 

Really? That's your conclusion? 

 

Part of my feedback was I didn't enjoy dropping depth charges, it's unrewarding, sail to a location on the map, press a button and some ribbons appear, it's not exactly the most thrilling of game designs.

 

Quite how they can draw the conclusion that we enjoy it from the fact that it was literally the only thing we could do against them is beyond me.

[Piratenmaedchen]

Vor 2 Minuten, Capra76 sagte:

Part of my feedback was I didn't enjoy dropping depth charges, it's unrewarding, sail to a location on the map, press a button and some ribbons appear, it's not exactly the most thrilling of game designs.

Having my finger on the G-button all the time sounds like fun, but I need both hands to play the game.

[Anktarktic1]

3 hours ago, Crysantos said:

And here you're clearly ommitting the entire statement to make it look like that. Let's take a look at the actual post. Here in the first segment we state that we want to implement them into PVP gameplay.

"We are happy to finally give you an answer to the most popular question in the history of the game: yes, they are coming.

Submarines played an important role in the naval operations of the first half of the 20th century. Their missions and aims were very different from other types of ships in these conflicts. Thus, the harmonious integration of this new ship type into our battle modes isn't going to be an easy task.

Having tested many prototypes during internal tests, we’re pleased to inform you that our team has been fully engaged in the development and preparation for the launch of submarines into PvP gameplay. To do this, we've got several issues to resolve: we have to find the niche that they should occupy, make the gameplay exciting and diverse, work out different options for the interaction of submarines with other ship types and between each other, update our maps, and take many other details into consideration. However, you can already be sure that the underwater hunters will eventually become available in World of Warships."

 

And then we talk about the TESTING stages, which is a) clearly the title of the paragraph and the sentence before your quoted one, the third stage of testing:

"Testing plans

The first step will come in the form of Closed Tests of the game process in order to evaluate the current concept and ensure the stability of test clients.

Then, Open Testing will take place. During this stage, you’ll be able to share your opinions with us and be among the first players to try out the new ship type in World of Warships. We’re planning several testing iterations during the second stage. It will be something like a Beta Test for the new type. Initially, only some of the players who submit their applications will be able to participate in the testing. Access will gradually be expanded and in time, everyone will be able to take part in the submarine trials.

After this comes the third stage. We’ll add submarines into the live client as a separate battle type, similar to Arms Race, Savage Battle, or Space Battle. The third stage will last several months. This will enable us to make the final touches and adjust the balance of the new type on the live server. When we're done with all these steps, we'll be able to decide on the final fate of submarines."

I am clearly not ommitting nothing. You asked where you stated it (which you should have known in the first place) and I posted you link to the whole page, where you stated it, it is all there. I copied the sentence where you say, that you will put submarines in live server first in a separate mode, which you did not do, you did put them in Coop and Ranked and now you are putting them in Random. I copied this sentence, so it is easier to find in the whole text. It absolutely does not matter if that separate mode, which you did not implement them in first, was meant to be a test, supertest, megatest, live finished product or anything else and that you put them in normal game modes after that. Because you did not do this test in a separate mode on live server at all. You just did not do what you said you would do. You said you will put submarines on live server first in a separate mode. You did not do that. You have put them in Coop and Ranked first on the live server.

 

No, it does not look like that, it is that. You did not put submarines first on live server as a separate mode like you said you would do.

 

Nothing in your reply disproves what I said. Actually you just repeated that sentence (with some irrelevant text before and after that) which I copied in the first place. That sentence, where you say, that you will add submarines into the live client as a separate battle type, which you obviously did not do.

[bEtHeNs]

Probably developers should write down a document about how to play submarines and against submarines and publish it to see what we can expect, not just some adjustments they have done to the previous system of submarines. And make clear this is is just a phase in the testing work or not. The problem is not only how to play submarines and make them fun but also how to play the other ships now these new ones come keeping them funny. This is not the case of the cv's now, I do not play them and I do not find fun suffering them nor ocassionaly playing against them.

[koliber_1984]

I quit the game for a month, will see what will hapen in November

[BanzaiPiluso]

I am really sad about this. WG doesn't care.

Its a pity there isn't another game out there that competes with WoWs'or they would really not do this if players had another place to go besides not playing the game.

 

[anonym_cwVecOS6ecVy]

If you think the communication and community guys are having a hard time especially since the CC exodus and now with the submarine implementation debacle you are right. I bet they are rotating in their beds, working day and night. Then again it is the job profile of a community manager and you need to be professional enough to take aggressiveness, toxicity and negative feedback. On the other hand, they are chosing to stick with this company. And because of that I cannot feel any pitty. It is what they are chosing to do and the mentioned aggressiveness, toxicity and negative feedback surely is not a result of the average mad player's evil character. It is the direct outcome of years over years of communication fails, false decisions, gaslighting, accusations and misinformation. To be honest, what I can read here in official statements around the release of subs to randoms, it almost makes me speechless. They are tossing and turning and trying to win quotation fights with the community. The more official statements about the release of subs I am reading, the more brainwashed I feel. And all of that after stating transparency optimizations. I am hanging around with WG for 10 years on top of working in the industry for a decade and this seems to be the pinnacle of being treated badly both as a player and customer.

[BLUB__BLUB]

On 10/1/2021 at 1:44 PM, YabbaCoe said:

Plenty changes were made on Submarine and anti-submarine gameplay, mostly based on gathered feedback. Now they should be more comfortable to play with and also especially now almost all ships will have ASW options, so there will be plenty ways how to counter them. 

It is clear that the critisism is reaching your ears. Why not listen?

- homing torpedoes are hated. Reserve them for T10, if you must. 

- DCP use also hated, if you reserve homing for T10, maybe give them "degaussing". 

 

If damage needs to go up, just give the subs heavy-hitting torps with lots of flooding chances.

Plenty other methods have been provided, and I am sure they'll work better than this crappy mechanic.

 

On 10/1/2021 at 1:44 PM, YabbaCoe said:

This is basically still a test, so Subs are not fully released to the game yet. They will again be rental and still there can be plenty things changed. And as we already tested them in coop and Ranked, we decided to move the test to the most played battle type - Random battles. 

That is as expected. No surprise there, but I hope you will chance the stuff for the better. 

After all, if the game is no fun anymore, there will be no more game... 

 

On 10/1/2021 at 1:44 PM, YabbaCoe said:

And guys, please stay civilized and constructive here and don't use any vulgarism, insults or don't promote toxicity. Thank you

There is no need for that indeed. But I do not think you are making it easy.

Well at least you have given most (if not all) ships some form of ASW. 

 

You will most likely find that Dutch cruisers will no longer be played much. 

And I hope that will confirm what you already know.