Important message for the community

[LeopardXI]

And regarding to Submarines, do not even get me started on those. They once said they will never bring subs into the game. Well that turned out to be a lie, abeit years later. Not even mentioning how they are implemented as I have seen from footage.

9 minutes ago, Ghesthar said:

1 is embellishing - results are performance.

 

2 may be, but when - I didn't follow this perfectly, but a lot of criticisms around premiums seem to end up boiling down to plans changing. If this was recent, then you are right, and I can only apologise. If this is a statement from some aged stream, I'm not so sure. 

 

3 - your own analysis showed them being even except in extreme cases. It has been increased to be more. I guess the claim is that it was intentionally worse, but then why only in extreme cases? Kind of seems like a Hanlon's case. 

 

4 - I thought their justification was based on the mission chain not being directly addable, not the ship? 

 

I'm not trying to be confrontational. I think they do enough badly that nobody needs to massage the definition of 'scam' or dredge up multiple year old comments to win points. I think when people do so, it gives justification for them ignoring real issues and feedback, because it makes community members seem unreasonable.

You probably have not realised yet all things Wargaming so far has done over the past 3-4 years is to get the maximum profit out of the game and they are literally doing everything in their power to make that happen, even if it means alienating both players and content creators alike.

That is why a lot of the CC's left.

And yes, they want views as much as possible: to show everyone how ruthless Wargaming is and too  show to what lengths they go to preserve their policy of bleeding the players dry of their money. And I completely agree with the CC's for that matter.

 

 

[Ghesthar]

29 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

I made a quick analysis of the Event here.

 

 

So frankly. There is more than just a few Problems with this Event.

The Odds of the Lootboxes being a rather small part of it really.

 

And in total it remains a Casino Style Tactic that Aims to promote Gambling habits.

Which means the mere Fact that Wargaming refuses to call it Gambling is actually already making it a Scam in a sense.

 

 

That Issue aside.

They dont need to Lie or Scam with the Lootboxes.

 

Their Statement was that the Chances are not Weighted.

What they did not say is if that is the case on a per type basis or on an individual box basis.

 

Because there is 5 Types of non Winner Boxes and 1 Winner Box.

But there is 40 non Winner Boxes and 1 Winner Box.

Which means if each Package Type has the same Chance to Appear the Missouri has a 1 out of 6 Chances. While for each Individual Box the Missouri drops to a 1 out of 41 Chance.

 

I think we all Agree that its the 1 to 41 Chance really.

 

 

 

 

As for your Accusation against LittleWhiteMouse and the other CCs that Left.

Sorry. But on that Front I have to Harshly Shoot you down... Etc

I agree - the event is awful in lots of ways. However, it is not dishonest, or a scam. Disagreeing with loot boxes as a mechanic is distinct from what wg does wrong. 

 

If you read my comment again, you'll notice that I said CCs are making a scene. Though, frankly, LWM claiming scams where they don't exist would qualify in my mind as well.

 

WG have behaved badly, especially toward her. Lots of ex-ccs use this as a vehicle to profit, filling everything with bile. The solution isn't more bile.

[Sunleader]

1 minute ago, Ghesthar said:

1 is embellishing - results are performance.

 

2 may be, but when - I didn't follow this perfectly, but a lot of criticisms around premiums seem to end up boiling down to plans changing. If this was recent, then you are right, and I can only apologise. If this is a statement from some aged stream, I'm not so sure. 

 

3 - your own analysis showed them being even except in extreme cases. It has been increased to be more. I guess the claim is that it was intentionally worse, but then why only in extreme cases? Kind of seems like a Hanlon's case. 

 

4 - I thought their justification was based on the mission chain not being directly addable, not the ship? 

 

I'm not trying to be confrontational. I think they do enough badly that nobody needs to massage the definition of 'scam' or dredge up multiple year old comments to win points. I think when people do so, it gives justification for them ignoring real issues and feedback, because it makes community members seem unreasonable.

 

1.

Except she said "In Battle Performance" which is not really related to Credit Earning Modifiers.

2.

The Statement was part of the Announcement for that Event. So it was not some Age old Stream or something.

3.

Thats not entirely True. Because the Fact remains that WG Promised that the old Missouri Owners would maintain their Earnings as before. Which was not Delivered. Instead now Wargaming Scrambling to at least make it as close as possible.

Which is acknowledged as positive but is still a failure on their Promise. (And pls also note that Wargaming Claimed even on the First Iteration that it would be sufficient. Only increasing it after alot of pressure and evidence proving them wrong)

4.

Not only would that not make Sense. Because Wargaming on Regular Basis Adds Specific Mission Chains to Ships you Buy in Packages. But more Importandly. Newly Purchased Missouris do not get the Mission Chain. 

People getting Missouri now will only get Missouri without the Credits Buffs. Which means it would be absolutely no problem to add her to the Armory.

Furthermore. It would be absolutely no Problem to just put a Token at the End of the Mission Chain and make that Token the Price for a Package you need to Buy before Unlocking the Missouri Package available for Doubloons.

 

So even that Excuse wont Fly.

 

 

Thats the thing Mate

We have been here for a While.

Wargaming very often Promises and Claims to be doing things.

Yet they never Followed through with it.

 

So right now we wont Trust them unless we See actual Action.

Yet. So far we only See more Excuses and Empty Words.

 

The Community Demanding actual Action is in no Way Unreasonable.

In Fact. I would question Sanity and the Ability to Reason on Anyone who after all of this would be Willing to take Wargamings Word for things.

[Wannna]

4 minutes ago, Ghesthar said:

I agree - the event is awful in lots of ways. However, it is not dishonest, or a scam. Disagreeing with loot boxes as a mechanic is distinct from what wg does wrong. 

Christmas lootbox short list (it was a scam) was no known until CC's tested it, it's not only lootbox, you are trying to defend the bad guys here.

[Saint_Butcher]

Like seriously how can anybody still defend WG after all these scams or can put some hope into them that they will change for the better? Too many lies in the past years and no sign of improvement.

[Ghesthar]

5 minutes ago, Wannna said:

Christmas lootbox short list (it was a scam) was no known until CC's tested it, it's not only lootbox, you are trying to defend the bad guys here.

Yes. 

 

Missouri loot boxes are not that. Claiming scams are scams is great. Claiming this is a scam because something else was is not. 

 

Getting one thing right does not give permission to get something else wrong. 

[Sunleader]

4 minutes ago, Ghesthar said:

I agree - the event is awful in lots of ways. However, it is not dishonest, or a scam. Disagreeing with loot boxes as a mechanic is distinct from what wg does wrong. 

 

If you read my comment again, you'll notice that I said CCs are making a scene. Though, frankly, LWM claiming scams where they don't exist would qualify in my mind as well.

 

WG have behaved badly, especially toward her. Lots of ex-ccs use this as a vehicle to profit, filling everything with bile. The solution isn't more bile.

 

1.

If your Bar for not being a Scam or not being Dishonest. Is that its not the case unless you tell a directly Confirmable Lie. Then indeed. WG has not done this (at least on this Event as far as we can tell)

Albeit they still Lied about it before the Event.....

 

Thing is. Withholding Information, using Psyhcological Suggestions and being Misleading on Purpose. In my Book is enough to consider things a Scam and call Wargaming Dishonest.

Deceiving someone does not forcibly require boldfaced Lies Mate.

 

See Mate. My Mom this Money received a Call. Asking her about Covid stuff. Then at the end of the Call telling her that as Thanks she will receive a Newsletter for 4 Weeks free of Charge.

Needless to say that I wasnt thrilled hearing that.

Today we had the Letter in the Mail. Congratulating my Mother to her new Abonnoment of that Newsletter which needs to be cancelt 6 weeks in advance.

 

Now. The Guy at the Telephone didnt tell a Single Lie.

But I will still call him a Scammer :)

And unlike WG he cant hide on an Island outside my Countries Jurisdiction. So you can bet that I will get him for it if he tries to pull even a Single Cent from my Mom.

 

2.

LWM was a CC Mate.

And Sorry. But Calling out WGs Deceit is not Qualifying as making a Scene.

Speaking out the Truth is often not Pleasant for the one Called out. But its Necessary if we want to see any Change.

 

3.

Possible. But Frankly. I have yet to see the CCs say something blatantly wrong without correcting themselves.

 

 

[Wannna]

7 minutes ago, Ghesthar said:

Missouri loot boxes are not that

if you don't have a memory.

The whole missouri coming back is a scam, on how they presented it, how they tried to implemente it and finaly how they did do it after community backlash.

[Ghesthar]

3 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

1.

If your Bar for not being a Scam or not being Dishonest. Is that its not the case unless you tell a directly Confirmable Lie. Then indeed. WG has not done this (at least on this Event as far as we can tell)

Albeit they still Lied about it before the Event.....

 

Thing is. Withholding Information, using Psyhcological Suggestions and being Misleading on Purpose. In my Book is enough to consider things a Scam and call Wargaming Dishonest.

Deceiving someone does not forcibly require boldfaced Lies Mate.

 

See Mate. My Mom this Money received a Call. Asking her about Covid stuff. Then at the end of the Call telling her that as Thanks she will receive a Newsletter for 4 Weeks free of Charge.

Needless to say that I wasnt thrilled hearing that.

Today we had the Letter in the Mail. Congratulating my Mother to her new Abonnoment of that Newsletter which needs to be cancelt 6 weeks in advance.

 

Now. The Guy at the Telephone didnt tell a Single Lie.

But I will still call him a Scammer :)

And unlike WG he cant hide on an Island outside my Countries Jurisdiction. So you can bet that I will get him for it if he tries to pull even a Single Cent from my Mom.

 

2.

LWM was a CC Mate.

And Sorry. But Calling out WGs Deceit is not Qualifying as making a Scene.

Speaking out the Truth is often not Pleasant for the one Called out. But its Necessary if we want to see any Change.

 

3.

Possible. But Frankly. I have yet to see the CCs say something blatantly wrong without correcting themselves.

 

 

The community called for change. WG has given them a response. Nobody can reasonably expect it to be instant. Some of the timelines given are obvious [edited]. 

 

Filling hundreds of comments with 'no you won't do any of that' accomplishes nothing, and entrenches the 'us vs them' attitude that causes problems like these. 

 

Being constructive and trying to hold them to what they say is great, and needed. 

 

People who really believe they are incapable of change should stop supporting them completely. Everyone else needs to actually give them a chance to do something. Otherwise, we've demanded change, they've agreed, and we've just thrown it back in their faces like children. 

[Ghesthar]

3 minutes ago, Wannna said:

if you don't have a memory.

The whole missouri coming back is a scam, on how they presented it, how they tried to implemente it and finaly how they did do it after community backlash.

'I didn't like how it came back' is not a scam. 

[LeopardXI]

4 minutes ago, Wannna said:

The whole missouri coming back is a scam, on how they presented it, how they tried to implemente it and finaly how they did do it after community backlash.

The fact it required a community firestorm in accordance with all the other problems is unacceptable by itself.

Like I said, this whole ordeal is ignorance from Wargaming in it's purest form.

 

And to players who think otherwise, this situation is far from new, Wargaming has been like this for years now and the firestorm that erupted last month is the angry dynamite detonating, the dynamite Wargaming has piled underneath themselves for the said period.

 

[Wannna]

5 minutes ago, Ghesthar said:

'I didn't like how it came back' is not a scam.  

It shouldn't be back at all and they are using the "aura" around it to scam un-informed players who bought it now to only have the shadow of it ( of a really meh ship)

[Sunleader]

2 minutes ago, Ghesthar said:

The community called for change. WG has given them a response. Nobody can reasonably expect it to be instant. Some of the timelines given are obvious [edited]. 

 

Filling hundreds of comments with 'no you won't do any of that' accomplishes nothing, and entrenches the 'us vs them' attitude that causes problems like these. 

 

Being constructive and trying to hold them to what they say is great, and needed. 

 

People who really believe they are incapable of change should stop supporting them completely. Everyone else needs to actually give them a chance to do something. Otherwise, we've demanded change, they've agreed, and we've just thrown it back in their faces like children. 

 

1.

Reality unfortunately is that WG Promised Changes more than 3 Years ago already.

Yet we are still waiting for them.

Not to Offend you Mate. But its a bit like the Boy who kept Screaming "Wolves" even assuming WG is Serious this Time. You cant really Blame anyone for not Trusting it and making that Clear.

2.

Not to Offend You. But there is quite alot of things they could do within less than a Week. Which would Instantly Earn them some Trust and Show they are Sincere in their Intentions.

So far however they have Refused. Needing Weeks just to actually be Pressured into taking this Serious enough to even Promise Changes.

3.

Well apparently its not. Because See thats the thing. People were Constructive for several Years. And WG didnt Listen to a Word they said. Now they are Rioting. And it took about 2 Weeks for WG to be Pressured into caring about it.

So while certainly nowhere near as much as we would like to. It seems that throwing Wrenches into WGs Legs is an much more effective way to make them listen than to just Politely Ask them.

4.

Not to Offend Ya Mate.

But if you ask someone to Stop Smoking inside the Living Room. And he Says. Yeah Sure. I think I should Stop that too. I will work on it. And then not only doesnt put out his Cigarette or go outside. But the very next Day sits there Smoking again.

Do you consider that "Agreeing" to Change something ?

WG Agreed Yes. But thats just Words. While their Words Say they Care and Agree that they need to Change. They Continue doing the very same stuff.

 

What the Community Wants.

Is Actions Mate.

Not Words.

Words are no Longer enough to Fix this.

 

We way too often were Placated with Words and then no Action ever came.

This Time. We will Demand Action to be Taken First. Before we Consider being Placated.

 

[Ghesthar]

2 minutes ago, Wannna said:

It shouldn't be back at all and they are using the "aura" around it to scam un-informed players who bought it now to only have the shadow of it ( of a really meh ship)

I mean, the 'aura' is all advertising, isn't it? 

 

The changes are disclosed. If somebody buys something thinking that it was not what was advertised and not what is described on the page in front of them, have they been scammed?

 

That seems like a quite stretched definition to me. 

[Ghesthar]

1 minute ago, Sunleader said:

 

1.

Reality unfortunately is that WG Promised Changes more than 3 Years ago already.

Yet we are still waiting for them.

Not to Offend you Mate. But its a bit like the Boy who kept Screaming "Wolves" even assuming WG is Serious this Time. You cant really Blame anyone for not Trusting it and making that Clear.

2.

Not to Offend You. But there is quite alot of things they could do within less than a Week. Which would Instantly Earn them some Trust and Show they are Sincere in their Intentions.

So far however they have Refused. Needing Weeks just to actually be Pressured into taking this Serious enough to even Promise Changes.

3.

Well apparently its not. Because See thats the thing. People were Constructive for several Years. And WG didnt Listen to a Word they said. Now they are Rioting. And it took about 2 Weeks for WG to be Pressured into caring about it.

So while certainly nowhere near as much as we would like to. It seems that throwing Wrenches into WGs Legs is an much more effective way to make them listen than to just Politely Ask them.

4.

Not to Offend Ya Mate.

But if you ask someone to Stop Smoking inside the Living Room. And he Says. Yeah Sure. I think I should Stop that too. I will work on it. And then not only doesnt put out his Cigarette or go outside. But the very next Day sits there Smoking again.

Do you consider that "Agreeing" to Change something ?

WG Agreed Yes. But thats just Words. While their Words Say they Care and Agree that they need to Change. They Continue doing the very same stuff.

 

What the Community Wants.

Is Actions Mate.

Not Words.

Words are no Longer enough to Fix this.

 

We way too often were Placated with Words and then no Action ever came.

This Time. We will Demand Action to be Taken First. Before we Consider being Placated.

 

Then why are you so supporting them by playing their game?

 

If you think you are winning by not spending any more money, you are wrong: the player base is the product.

 

If you don't trust them, why are you still dealing with them? If you want to trust them, you have to give them a chance. 

 

What do you think they could have done within the week to win back some trust? 

[Wannna]

8 minutes ago, Ghesthar said:

I mean, the 'aura' is all advertising, isn't it? 

 

The changes are disclosed. If somebody buys something thinking that it was not what was advertised and not what is described on the page in front of them, have they been scammed?

 

That seems like a quite stretched definition to me. 

Predatory and scamy tactics.

 

7 minutes ago, Ghesthar said:

If you want to trust them, you have to give them a chance. 

 

Chances were given many times over the years, now is the time we request real action.

[Sunleader]

1 minute ago, Ghesthar said:

Then why are you so supporting them by playing their game?

 

If you think you are winning by not spending any more money, you are wrong: the player base is the product.

 

If you don't trust them, why are you still dealing with them? If you want to trust them, you have to give them a chance. 

 

What do you think they could have done within the week to win back some trust? 

 

1.

I want them to Change. I dont want them to be Destroyed.

2.

With all due Respect Mate. If your getting Desperate and instead of answering the Points instead have to throw Taunts. Then its time to call it Quits as the Argument apparently wont be resolved in an Agreement. :)

3.

I am giving them a Chance obviously. They can right away take several Actions that I would immediately Honor as them being Sincere.

Just so far they are taking no such Action whatsoever.

For example. They could have Offered Missouri as a Simple Purchase and Scratch the Gambling Event.

I would have Cheered them right away because it would have been an Awesome Demonstration that they Actually listened.

Even after Failing on that. They could still right away Open a Devblog Officially Announcing the Next Event which was Soviet Carriers I think. And make Clear that it will Contain absolutely No Gambling Lootboxes.

Even that would still Count as an Action if its Done as Part of an Official Announcement for the Event. Because then its pretty hard for them to go back on it.

 

Thing is. They dont. They are not taking any such Action right now.

4.

See Above.

By the way. Another thing they could do as fast as Next Week. Would be to Just Put Missouri into the Armory for Doubloons making it Available for Purchase with Doubloons for everyone as was Originally Promised.

That as well would be a Gesture of Intention which would give at least some Weight to their Words.

By now this is a bit Late of course. As they already pushed through with their Gambling Plan and thus its nowhere near as Powerful as if they had done it right away.

But its still a Gesture of them at least Realizing that Change is needed and putting more behind it than meaningless words.

 

Wanna know what they did instead ?

They made a Devblog for the German BBs Release.

[Wannna]

22 minutes ago, Ghesthar said:

 

What do you think they could have done within the week to win back some trust? 

Achievement flags coming back, taking subs out of ranked, take lootbox out of the next events,....

[Ghesthar]

1 minute ago, Sunleader said:

 

1.

I want them to Change. I dont want them to be Destroyed.

2.

With all due Respect Mate. If your getting Desperate and instead of answering the Points instead have to throw Taunts. Then its time to call it Quits as the Argument apparently wont be resolved in an Agreement. :)

3.

I am giving them a Chance obviously. They can right away take several Actions that I would immediately Honor as them being Sincere.

Just so far they are taking no such Action whatsoever.

For example. They could have Offered Missouri as a Simple Purchase and Scratch the Gambling Event.

I would have Cheered them right away because it would have been an Awesome Demonstration that they Actually listened.

Even after Failing on that. They could still right away Open a Devblog Officially Announcing the Next Event which was Soviet Carriers I think. And make Clear that it will Contain absolutely No Gambling Lootboxes.

Even that would still Count as an Action if its Done as Part of an Official Announcement for the Event. Because then its pretty hard for them to go back on it.

 

Thing is. They dont. They are not taking any such Action right now.

4.

See Above.

By the way. Another thing they could do as fast as Next Week. Would be to Just Put Missouri into the Armory for Doubloons making it Available for Purchase with Doubloons for everyone as was Originally Promised.

That as well would be a Gesture of Intention which would give at least some Weight to their Words.

By now this is a bit Late of course. As they already pushed through with their Gambling Plan and thus its nowhere near as Powerful as if they had done it right away.

But its still a Gesture of them at least Realizing that Change is needed and putting more behind it than meaningless words.

 

Wanna know what they did instead ?

They made a Devblog for the German BBs Release.

There were no taunts in my post - it is all sincere.

 

Like it or not, lootboxes are part of f2p games right now. There are reasonable objections, but they won't disappear. 

 

Isn't the pacific mission chain doing exactly what you want, and giving a direct purchase option? Didn't they add that literally in the last week? 

 

I don't address all your points because your posts are very long, and I don't understand all the points you are trying to make. 

[Ghesthar]

1 minute ago, Wannna said:

Achievement flags coming back, taking subs out of ranked, take lootbox out of the next events,....

What do the first two have to do with trust or current issues other than being things you want? 

 

Lootboxes are pretty much a part of f2p games. I think expecting them to stop is unrealistic. 

[LeopardXI]

Also, another thing to point out is the fact that they are noting "2022 and later" in their statement. To me this clearly seems a stalling tactic. 

They are waiting until the worst of the storm has passed and then strike again. The structural changes needed for Wargaming to fix their problems are going to take months or longer.

Moving the goalpost and stalling are some of the dirty tactics Wargaming has been pulling on us.

We as the players are done with this behavior.

 

Unfortuantely, I think we are too late. Wargaming is clearly getting enough money from us to sustain development like this for the near future.

And this is why a lot of the players have lost trust in Wargaming in getting the problems fixed. And Wargaming clearly does not understand this since this is the miscommunication" they are referring too.

 

Lastly, and most disturbingly of all, there are players that are clearly under Wargaming's spell, believing that what Wargaming does is still "good for the game". 

And as long as that continues, WG will keep making stupid jokes like:

-Submarines,

-Fantasy ships

-Old premium ships/flags under a new Paywall that makes them nearly impossible to get and so on...

-Treating their content creators like utter dogfood.

-Carrier rework

-Did I mention Submarines?

 

We might as well play Bingo with all the stuff Wargaming messed up since WoWS came out...

 

 

[UnterSeeBot]

4 hours ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

A higher PEGI rating makes it more difficult for Wargaming to advertise their game,

Not really. PEGI 12 makes practically zero difference to their ability to advertise. What they want to avoid is PEGI 18 which would have an effect.

 

Oh, and welcome to the EU forum. Beer is in the fridge.

5 hours ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

 I still need to do a bunch more games to have full access to the forums.

So we are safe for now /

[Miscommunication_dept]

I was mildly impressed by their apology, at least compared to previous apologies (if you can call them that).

Thank you @LittleWhiteMouse for shattering those dreams

 

The most exciting part for me is that it would take a year to fix their lootbox odds so they might be ready for our eyes to see.

 

Looks like the bundles DID have weighted chances of landing the Missouri in either the first few or last few bundles to divide people into 'advertisers' who get it first and share on the forums how good the drop rate is, and 'spenders' who start it and will not stop until they get the ship.

 

Add to that the shortlists that have been proven and I think confirmed and they clearly have a lot of work to do.

 

One could say that reputable company would be able to release odds immediately as surely they would have been upfront  and not hidden anything from their customers.

 

Of course, WG instead decide that they don't want to give us 'too much' information as it might confuse us.....

[Wannna]

7 hours ago, Ghesthar said:

What do the first two have to do with trust or current issues other than being things you want? 

 

Lootboxes are pretty much a part of f2p games. I think expecting them to stop is unrealistic. 

You asked what could they do to buld trust, I gave the latest middle finger WG gave to the community and what could help.

 

It's hard to discuss with you, you move the discussion pole after every argument just for the sake of it. with your mentality of take it or leave, you won't go far.

 

Take care mate

[CaptainKreutzer]

Trust between WG and players are so shattered, For me i don't believe anything that WG says here, they don't show actions but just promise...

Monetization - This part.. umm they could move away from lootboxes, Battlepass system is on use by big games currently like Warzone, It isn't an awesome system for sure but it works better then lootboxes. Not to mention they are blind asf to see how dangerous lootboxes are for Playerbase and Company interactions, It shattered trust and like drastically over time. but no WG is WG they still want you to gamble or grind your life out. Oh right Missouri event is basically what i say there... Drop rates are good but on box like winter gifts there's rigged list and we can't see it so even if it says some random number we all will probably get same ship from the short list instead of random premium it says... "Summer sale" That's all...

Feedback - Bring back Developer Dairies, It is good show to show your guys commitment to everything that's said there if you guys really doing it... In terms of Cruiser secondaries i already made good skill for it but none of you listened and rather focused on that useless skill also along with Secondary skill please fix survivability of Large cruisers, Half of USN DD models was ready last year, They still didn't arrive...

Communications - I'm not sure what to say here so i leave it to others

Despite this is longer apology i don't believe it, Actions speaks louder then words!