Submarines in Ranked and Co-op Battles

[YabbaCoe]

13 hours ago, Pururut said:

Never thought I would see moderators expecting and enforcing a public forum to act like a professional panel. Laughable.

 

The news mentioned that most of the destroyers and some light cruisers will have ASW capabilities whereas some battleships will be able to call ASW planes. Why a full list of these ships havent been released to the public yet? I can buy a premium ship today only to find out that it will have no means to fight submarines on its own tomorrow. Speaking of ASW can we get more details on it asap? Which destroyers will have access to hedgehog and squid? Are there any news or official response about CVs and their lack of involvement with submarine gameplay? It would be a total waste if Wargaming doesnt pit its favored children against each other. 

I am not sure, if we will have a full list of ships with ASW or depth charges, but I can try to request that for the publication closer to release of 0.10.7 update to live server. Actually it would be good to write it down.

Regarding Hedgehog or Squid or other ASW armaments, no info about those yet. 

 

2 hours ago, ghostbuster_ said:

It hilarious how mods had to clear this topic. @YabbaCoe community feedback is quite possitive against subs i assume  

Subs in ranked. Yeah WG definitely listen to feedback. Great testing ground you have there. Why dont you test them in kings of the see? Most competitive tournament in wows. Oh wait that was long ago. WG managed to destroy it too. 

Moderators cleared this topic, because from the beginning it was full of spam and unconstructive and offtopic replies. 

Thanks to their involvement, now it is much better, as players are expressing their thoughts relevant to this topic. 

Critisism and negative comments are ok, as soon as they are constructive and without any insults or vulgarism. 

I read all the comments here (also the hidden ones) and also I will compile a feedback of them for devs.

Btw last KoTS happened in May, so not really long ago. 

[ghostbuster_]

17 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

I am not sure, if we will have a full list of ships with ASW or depth charges, but I can try to request that for the publication closer to release of 0.10.7 update to live server. Actually it would be good to write it down.

Regarding Hedgehog or Squid or other ASW armaments, no info about those yet. 

 

Moderators cleared this topic, because from the beginning it was full of spam and unconstructive and offtopic replies. 

Thanks to their involvement, now it is much better, as players are expressing their thoughts relevant to this topic. 

Critisism and negative comments are ok, as soon as they are constructive and without any insults or vulgarism. 

I read all the comments here (also the hidden ones) and also I will compile a feedback of them for devs.

Btw last KoTS happened in May, so not really long ago. 

Wasnt that one organised by WG? Thats why it doesnt count. 

And guess why you get these unconstructive comments with insults or vulgarism? Maybe subs are not wanted? Just maybe? Has it ever crossed to your mind i wonder?

Btw. Have you ever thought that people are sick and tired of their constructive feedbacks being thrown into junk and thats why they dont bother anymore? 

[CV_SUB_Report_Blacklist]

i wonder why there is no 1 day premium neither some tokens in the article ...

 

this article is bad in many means ... 

[Prophecy82]

24 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

II read all the comments here (also the hidden ones) and also I will compile a feedback of them for devs.

 

I do belive you. 

The problem is there is nothing coming back. Nothing from the Devs regarding special topics, nothing on ships like M. Polo could need a buff etc. 

Its just "we are monitoring it closely" or "we are happy with results" which just translates to "FU you have no clue". 

 

Bad Ideas are usually self-regulated by the forumites like Thunderer-range-nerf-whiners, but good ideas... nope "I forward this" (I belive you do) but all that comes back is silence. 

Tell me: Does WG really hate/are disgusted by their customers so much?  Or why is the communication so one-sided in both directions? 

Like: forwarded ideas ----- here´s the devblog. 

Seems to me like WG is completely out of touch. So why even write ideas/suggestions/feedback when its a waste of time. 

 

LOL, I wrote "remove CVs from CB" in the last feedback (like many others did) and yet, next season there can be two! Hilarious. 

 

@Arty_McFly Pls give @YabbaCoe at least the time to read my post before you delete it. 

[YabbaCoe]

12 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

Wasnt that one organised by WG? Thats why it doesnt count. 

And guess why you get these unconstructive comments with insults or vulgarism? Maybe subs are not wanted? Just maybe? Has it ever crossed to your mind i wonder?

Btw. Have you ever thought that people are sick and tired of their constructive feedbacks being thrown into junk and thats why they dont bother anymore? 

Well, last KoTS was exactly the same as before, only now it is now owned by players, but by WG, so it doesn't count anymore? Interesting

I know, and I see, that you are angry and negative about that. But while expressing your feelings, you always should follow forum rules. In case you don't do that, your replies can be moderated and also sanctioned if you would break the rules significantly. 

[Arty_McFly]

16 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

And guess why you get these unconstructive comments with insults or vulgarism? Maybe subs are not wanted?

Most likely, subs are not wanted by a loud minority. Only a small precentage of the player base does actually use the forum. Players who just don't care about subs have no reason to post in this topic. Players who are looking forward to subs have no reason to post in this topic either. They will get their subs anyway. That's why the comments are mostly negative.

 

In my experience (not only in WoWs, also in other games), ~80% of the players just play the game and don't care about forums or similar platforms. Those who do post on the forum, often do it if they don't agree with something. If you are happy with the game, there is just no reason to post on the forum, right?

 

Also, insults and vulgarism won't change anything. Constructive feedback might be considered. That's another reason why ranting is just a waste of time.

[Hugh_Ruka]

1 hour ago, Redwing6891 said:

My five cents...

 

1. The historic arguments so far put forward either before or against submarines in WoWS are, while entertaining, pretty pointless as WoWS itself is not a historic game. It may have been initially in the first open beta but it certainly is not now. It is, to my and others everlasting regret, WoT in ship skins. In my view it would be more appropriate to speculate what tank equivalent this new class has and how it works in WoT. My guess would be something like missile armed scout tanks or possibly artillery but I'd be very happy to listen what others may think.
2. While we may question the soundness of the approach to introduce yet another barely tested element into a game that developers are already struggling to balance, it is what it is. I am sure the company will have done some sort of risk-benefit analysis and concluded that the benefits outweighed the risks on a player numbers / income basis. If that means you or I end up on the wrong side of the balance sheet that is regrettable but you can't please everyone. All what we can do is vote with our feet.
3. I have not played submarines yet as the PTS system does not appeal to me but I may give them a go once released on the full client and see how they play. I might even like them - who knows? I like ships in general (including submarines) so in the worst case I am just happy to admire the usual top-quality artwork. One of the strengths of WoWS is that it can be what I want it to be. And if that is just a virtual cabinet for model ships to look at, that's fine by me, too.

1. Nobody is talking about the historical capabilities or properties of the ships. But the main mechanics are based on historical and real world usage of said ships. Even CVs to an extent. Submarines were never used as main fleet combatants, they were simply not designed and built for those roles. That's the main problem.

 

2. We can try to show them the consequences their direction will have. The community was correct on many aspects of the previous similar introductions (we are not always correct of course).

 

3. They should have gone with something similar to Grand Battle from a patch ago. The stats don't count so people can go nuts as they wish, there's nothing at stake and they can implement a similar model to how the Super BBs were gated to not have everybody queue up only in subs. But no, they are trying to destroy the next most popular mode after Random battles. And the mode is still not a valid testing ground as it features REDUCED team sizes.

[ghostbuster_]

8 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

Well, last KoTS was exactly the same as before, only now it is now owned by players, but by WG, so it doesn't count anymore? Interesting

Interesting? Well we can discuss about that but that would be off topic, wouldnt it? 

Quote

I know, and I see, that you are angry and negative about that. But while expressing your feelings, you always should follow forum rules. In case you don't do that, your replies can be moderated and also sanctioned if you would break the rules significantly. 

Sure, the insult parts can be edited but its interesting that posts get completely removed if they include something WG doesnt like. Besides, again. Why do you think there were these insults? Maybe players dont want subs in there gamemods? Maybe? 

[ungabunga]

Finally!!! Well done WG!! All the whining BB players will be devastated thou :D Cause all they can do is sit 20 km from targets and run at first sight of damage. 

[ghostbuster_]

9 minutes ago, Arty_McFly said:

Most likely, subs are not wanted by a loud minority. Only a small precentage of the player base does actually use the forum. Players who just don't care about subs have no reason to post in this topic. Players who are looking forward to subs have no reason to post in this topic either. They will get their subs anyway. That's why the comments are mostly negative.

Classic excuse... its getting old. Ofc majority of players dont use forum. But unless WG introduces huge ingame surveys which are mandatory, forum is the only platform to judge if something is wanted or not. 

And why do players who are looking forward to subs, have no reason to post here? They have as many reasons as others.

9 minutes ago, Arty_McFly said:

 

In my experience (not only in WoWs, also in other games), ~80% of the players just play the game and don't care about forums or similar platforms. Those who do post on the forum, often do it if they don't agree with something. If you are happy with the game, there is just no reason to post on the forum, right?

Well, not really. I posted many posts after BB AP changes on DDs for example although it was a very welcome change for me.

9 minutes ago, Arty_McFly said:

 

Also, insults and vulgarism won't change anything. Constructive feedback might be considered. That's another reason why ranting is just a waste of time.

Constructive feedback takes considerably longer time and it also doesnt change anything as we saw in last 3 years. So, why bother anymore? Why removing entire post instead of just editting it? You are getting lazier or something?

[hellhound666]

15 minutes ago, Arty_McFly said:

Most likely, subs are not wanted by a loud minority. Only a small precentage of the player base does actually use the forum. Players who just don't care about subs have no reason to post in this topic. Players who are looking forward to subs have no reason to post in this topic either. They will get their subs anyway. That's why the comments are mostly negative.

 

In my experience (not only in WoWs, also in other games), ~80% of the players just play the game and don't care about forums or similar platforms. Those who do post on the forum, often do it if they don't agree with something. If you are happy with the game, there is just no reason to post on the forum, right?

 

Also, insults and vulgarism won't change anything. Constructive feedback might be considered. That's another reason why ranting is just a waste of time.

most likely your opinion is biased as we don't know how you are getting paid by lesta/wg

in my experience earth is flat but it is not ... btw, we don't see your experience with the game

insults and vulgarism are the only thing left - we saw it with cv rework and how much feedback is/was considered

[Hakssor]

26 minutes ago, Arty_McFly said:

Most likely, subs are not wanted by a loud minority. Only a small precentage of the player base does actually use the forum. Players who just don't care about subs have no reason to post in this topic. Players who are looking forward to subs have no reason to post in this topic either. They will get their subs anyway. That's why the comments are mostly negative.

 

In my experience (not only in WoWs, also in other games), ~80% of the players just play the game and don't care about forums or similar platforms. Those who do post on the forum, often do it if they don't agree with something. If you are happy with the game, there is just no reason to post on the forum, right?

 

Also, insults and vulgarism won't change anything. Constructive feedback might be considered. That's another reason why ranting is just a waste of time.

It's always the same excuse. "Loud minority" is an insult and disrespectful to forum posters. How are you a moderator when you see forum posters with such contempt? So in your opinion what people post on the forum should just get dismissed as "not relevant" because they come from the "loud minority".

I'm guessing WG hires mods who share their opinion regarding player feedback as in "not relevant". 

 

Have you ever thought that maybe forum posters are not a minority but maybe just the most active part of the playerbase, the one that gives a damn where this game is headed?

 

Players who want subs have all the reasons to post, there are plenty positive answers in other threads. I'm guessing the cmd rework was also disliked only by the "loud minority" according to you.

[Pikkozoikum]

23 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

1. Nobody is talking about the historical capabilities or properties of the ships. But the main mechanics are based on historical and real world usage of said ships. Even CVs to an extent. Submarines were never used as main fleet combatants, they were simply not designed and built for those roles. That's the main problem.

 

2. We can try to show them the consequences their direction will have. The community was correct on many aspects of the previous similar introductions (we are not always correct of course).

 

3. They should have gone with something similar to Grand Battle from a patch ago. The stats don't count so people can go nuts as they wish, there's nothing at stake and they can implement a similar model to how the Super BBs were gated to not have everybody queue up only in subs. But no, they are trying to destroy the next most popular mode after Random battles. And the mode is still not a valid testing ground as it features REDUCED team sizes.

1. Wasn't there actual fleet submarines? I mean they had not much use of that, but didn't those exist? But on the other hand, we don't really have realistic naval combats here, it's a ship shooter. Though submarines actual did attack warships, also as part of a surface combat, just not with the fleet together, more like ambushing retreating ships.

 

Also I found this in a youtube video:

 

Intended Role and Typical Missions are "Engaging Warships". Though I think that was mostly planed for the japanese or something and also not the main role, but it was considered. So I see no reason, why not.

 

And in the end, it's a game. Most games go with the same approach, that submarines fight warships (War on the Sea, Steel Ocean (pvp), Silent Hunter, WoWS and I think War Thunder will get them at some point too, because DC exist already)

 

2. The opinions in the community are always very different. The problem is, we have only polls in this forum, but not access to the actual surveys of Wargaming, which would include way players

 

3. They already tested submarines in a different mode, at some point they will release them. Would you prefer, if they would have the release next patch or just a minor-test-release in ranked? ;)

I think, if they would't go with the ranked test, they would go with the full release instead

 

[Pikkozoikum]

11 minutes ago, MortuaEst_1 said:

It's always the same excuse. "Loud minority" is an insult and disrespectful to forum posters. How are you a moderator when you see forum posters with such contempt? So in your opinion what people post on the forum should just get dismissed as "not relevant" because they come from the "loud minority".

I'm guessing WG hires mods who share their opinion regarding player feedback as in "not relevant" 

In terms of quantity, it's not relevant, yes. Especially if it's simple question of "Like or dislike". In case of a quality question, a single individual can be actual relevant, if that one makes a good point.

 

But why would you say, if you have something like 99% like, 1% doesn't like. Why would you say, those 1% are relevant? (just as an example) ^^

If you make a game for those 1%, then the game won't have any success

[Pikkozoikum]

20 minutes ago, hellhound666 said:

most likely your opinion is biased as we don't know how you are getting paid by lesta/wg

in my experience earth is flat but it is not ... btw, we don't see your experience with the game

insults and vulgarism are the only thing left - we saw it with cv rework and how much feedback is/was considered

Of course you don't know his experience and there is no real proof. It's up to you, if you trust in those words or not, but I also think, that he is somewhat right .That most players don't use a forum, and that people on the forum often talk more likely about negative stuff, that they dislike or something. Not only, but it happens quite often.

[Arty_McFly]

20 minutes ago, MortuaEst_1 said:

"Loud minority" is an insult and disrespectful to forum posters. How are you a moderator when you see forum posters with such contempt? So in your opinion what people post on the forum should just get dismissed as "not relevant" because they come from the "loud minority"

There are plasyers who are able to criticize the game in a constructive way without insulting other players or WG staff. Feedback like that is very welcome. There is no reason to get personal because of a change in a game.

 

24 minutes ago, hellhound666 said:

most likely your opinion is biased as we don't know how you are getting paid by lesta/wg

Fun fact: I don't get payed at all, just like every other volunteer.

 

28 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

Why removing entire post instead of just editting it?

What are we supposed to edit, if the whole post is unconstructive, off-topic and/or violating the forum rules? If you read the whole thread again, you will see that we actually do edit posts, if only small parts are against the rules.

 

28 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

Ofc majority of players dont use forum. But unless WG introduces huge ingame surveys which are mandatory, forum is the only platform to judge if something is wanted or not. 

That's wrong. The forum is one part of the feedback. Surveys are another part. Active players in the game or number of battles in a certain time frame can be feedback, too.
That's why constructive feedback is important. It can actullay bring up ideas which might be considered. A rant is just what I wrote above: Part of a loud minority.

 

As I already mentioned, I don't want to see subs in ranked myself. Do I start a riot? No. Why? Because it won't change anything. Let's see how subs work. Maybe it's not as bad as we predict. Even if it doesn't work, it's just one season of ranked and if there are huge problems, WG can always revert their decision and rework the concept. A game is not static, it's always in developement. Sometimes it just needs some time to make things work.

[Hugh_Ruka]

6 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

1. Wasn't there actual fleet submarines? I mean they had not much use of that, but didn't those exist? But on the other hand, we don't really have realistic naval combats here, it's a ship shooter. Though submarines actual did attack warships, also as part of a surface combat, just not with the fleet together, more like ambushing retreating ships.

 

Also I found this in a youtube video:

 

Intended Role and Typical Missions are "Engaging Warships". Though I think that was mostly planed for the japanese or something and also not the main role, but it was considered. So I see no reason, why not.

 

And in the end, it's a game. Most games go with the same approach, that submarines fight warships (War on the Sea, Steel Ocean (pvp), Silent Hunter, WoWS and I think War Thunder will get them at some point too, because DC exist already)

 

2. The opinions in the community are always very different. The problem is, we have only polls in this forum, but not access to the actual surveys of Wargaming, which would include way players

 

3. They already tested submarines in a different mode, at some point they will release them. Would you prefer, if they would have the release next patch or just a minor-test-release in ranked? ;)

I think, if they would't go with the ranked test, they would go with the full release instead

 

Well you can find a lot of different curiosities like Cruiser submarines (Surcouf) or Airplane carrier submarines (I400 class) or even cargo submarines but those were specialties that tried to push the designs into niche roles.

 

Also note that the "Engaging Warships" is in brackets. The submarines were of course capable of doing that, they had anti-ship armament after all, but it was NOT their designed or primary role. They were only suitable for short engagements, hit and run basically.

 

Yes at the end of things this is a game. However the game should be fun for all involved, not only the one commanding the chosen class. It is quite different to design a game around submarines (Silent Hunter) and trying to tack on submarines into something that was primarily designed with something different in mind. I am not saying it cannot be done, but at the current state and implementation of submarines in WoWs it's not it.

[Hakssor]

3 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

In terms of quantity, it's not relevant, yes. Especially if it's simple question of "Like or dislike". In case of a quality question, a single individual can be actual relevant, if that one makes a good point.

 

But why would you say, if you have something like 99% like, 1% doesn't like. Why would you say, those 1% are relevant? (just as an example) ^^

If you make a game for those 1%, then the game won't have any success

This isn't a anti-sub forum, this is a wows forum. People who come in this thread also comment on other things regarding the game not just subs.

How many people praised WG's implementation of subs? Even CCs, guys who influence a lot of players were negative in lots of aspects. 

I actually want subs in the game, but not in ranked and not in their current form. WG received a lot of feedback on PTS and changed literally nothing.

[hellhound666]

9 minutes ago, Arty_McFly said:

Fun fact: I don't get payed at all, just like every other volunteer.

no compensation at all? lol ... that explains a lot ... work for a company that makes millions .... for free ... epic

i once had a boss who told that he liked most people who work because of enthusiasm ... luckily I wasn't one of them

[Hugh_Ruka]

6 minutes ago, Arty_McFly said:

That's wrong. The forum is one part of the feedback. Surveys are another part. Active players in the game or number of battles in a certain time frame can be feedback, too.

That's why constructive feedback is important. It can actullay bring up ideas which might be considered. A rant is just what I wrote above: Part of a loud minority.

 

As I already mentioned, I don't want to see subs in ranked myself. Do I start a riot? No. Why? Because it won't change anything. Let's see how subs work. Maybe it's not as bad as we predict. Even if it doesn't work, it's just one season of ranked and if there are huge problems, WG can always revert their decision and rework the concept. A game is not static, it's always in developement. Sometimes it just needs some time to make things work.

You cannot have constructive feedback without a discussion. And that is something that is missing here. There is no discussion possible because nobody relevant form WG is ever answering on these forums.

 

That's the main reason these forums look as they look. It's just us players discussing among ourselves. Even if something is deemed relevant or constructive by the Gods at WG we never find out.

 

You can clearly see it when you go through many posters histories (myself included). They go from a learning phase to a "constructive feedback" phase to an either cynical, frustrated or negative feedback phase. Simply because there is no meaningful discussion to be had with WG. Basically you end up with trolls at the end anyway.

 

So censoring the forums based on how "constructive" the feedback is does not make sense.

[Arty_McFly]

6 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

 

So censoring the forums based on how "constructive" the feedback is does not make sense.

It does. Believe it or not, WG staff does read the forums and does collect feedback and ideas for the devs. If we allow unconstructive criticism on the forum, it is much harder for them to find valuable feedback. That's why we want constuctive criticism.

 

Now let's get back to the topic of this thread, please. Enough off-topic discussion for today.

[Pikkozoikum]

4 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Well you can find a lot of different curiosities like Cruiser submarines (Surcouf) or Airplane carrier submarines (I400 class) or even cargo submarines but those were specialties that tried to push the designs into niche roles.

Actually, what you mention here is not a niche. because most long-distance submarines of the japanese were all three of them or at least one of them. They were cruiser subs (140mm deck guns), they had often recon planes or later dive bomber and they were also used for supply runs for dangerous locations.

And those subs existed in a quite large number, idk mabe 50 to 100? Is quite a mess to check, which sub had those stuff

But alone the Typ B had around 20 submarines with 140mm and recon plane

 

8 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Also note that the "Engaging Warships" is in brackets. The submarines were of course capable of doing that, they had anti-ship armament after all, but it was NOT their designed or primary role. They were only suitable for short engagements, hit and run basically.

It say "intended role" which means, they were planned for that. Not primary and always. But also it say "typical mission", which means, that actually did that. And you have to keep in mind, it's a game. Especially in WoWS counts: If it existed in what way ever, then it's possible in this game. In every game, submarines will go for Warships, even for taskforces and fleet. Because it's a game, they are supposed to be fun, and sinking merchant ships for 100h is maybe not that much fun.

 

12 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Yes at the end of things this is a game. However the game should be fun for all involved, not only the one commanding the chosen class. It is quite different to design a game around submarines (Silent Hunter) and trying to tack on submarines into something that was primarily designed with something different in mind. I am not saying it cannot be done, but at the current state and implementation of submarines in WoWs it's not it.

It's not impossible, Steel ocean had submarines, and they worked quite well. It was fun against them and playing them. Actually, they often felt a bit weak, because DDs could sink them so easily

 

But ye, I had fun to play against them on PTS and TST. Especially dropping DCs as DD on them is much fun. I jsut wish, that DCs would have to be more aimed and that it has to be more of a "guessing" game, where to drop

 

I made also a quite big feedback comment, what I would change. So yes, I woudl change some stuff, but I also think, that the current version kinda works, even with disliking some stuff.

[Hugh_Ruka]

Just now, Arty_McFly said:

It does. Believe it or not, WG staff does read the forums and does collect feedback and ideas for the devs. If we allow unconstructive criticism on the forum, is much harder for them to find valuable feedback. That's why we want constuctive criticism.

You don't KNOW what is deemed constructive by the developers because you have no interaction with them. You have no clue about future plans, architectural and design limitations of the game engine etc. You can only evaluate the text and if it is written in a specific manner.

 

I can write pages of completely unconstructive feedback and you'll have no clue or no reason to remove the posts as trolling simply because it will look reasonable.

 

I am sorry but your own actions in here are not constructive in any way other than removing the vulgar ones. Even you judgement of off-topic is clearly lacking just by how you treated the co-op related posts.

[hellhound666]

26 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Of course you don't know his experience and there is no real proof. It's up to you, if you trust in those words or not, but I also think, that he is somewhat right .That most players don't use a forum, and that people on the forum often talk more likely about negative stuff, that they dislike or something. Not only, but it happens quite often.

the times when i trusted smthg said by lesta/wg are long gone

there is no reason to assume that people who haven't expressed their feelings are pro subs - for now in all mediums against are far more people than pro

[Arty_McFly]

4 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Even you judgement of off-topic is clearly lacking just by how you treated the co-op related posts.

This thread is about subs in ranked and co-op. Posts about co-op changes in the last patch, not even mentioning subs in any way are off-topic. We are in contact with the CMs every day. If they are not happy with our moderation, they will tell us. Since they want valuable feedback on subs in ranked and co-op, we need to keep this thread clean. If you are not happy with the moderation, you can always contact @YabbaCoe via pm.

As mentioned above, let's get back to topic now. If you have any further questions, please use the pm function.