Submarines in Ranked and Co-op Battles

[ghostbuster_]

1 hour ago, YabbaCoe said:

Well, I kinda acknowledged, that this ship would play really Mysorebly, as it can be tough against Submarine alone. 
In this case, knowing the situation, Mysore users should try to stick with their teammates and if Submarine will make a mistake and is spotted while going to be surface, you can hit them hard with main shells, for example yesterday on stream Tuccy even finished one with secondaries. Anyway, while being alone, advantage of Mysore is definitely speed and well, to spot you, Sub needs to go surface. 

 that logic... 

 

[Jorhzb]

I won't use any submarine...

[YabbaCoe]

49 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

 that logic... 

 

I mean, it is as it is. Some ships have direct ways how to defend against submarines, some unfortunately don't. It is the same with other consumables, as some ships have hydro, so they are much better to play against ships with torpedoes, as they can spot them from bigger distance than usual. Or radar, which can give a big advantage for those ships to spot enemies for quite a long distance. Some ships have strong AA and Deff AA so they are much more capable to defend themselves against CV etc.

I know, that this is not really popular decision, but it was done from balancing reasons and to also slightly change and update the roles of some ships. 

[ghostbuster_]

9 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

I mean, it is as it is. Some ships have direct ways how to defend against submarines, some unfortunately don't. It is the same with other consumables, as some ships have hydro, so they are much better to play against ships with torpedoes, as they can spot them from bigger distance than usual. Or radar, which can give a big advantage for those ships to spot enemies for quite a long distance. Some ships have strong AA and Deff AA so they are much more capable to defend themselves against CV etc.

Are you being serious right now? All these other consumables are about mitigating damage or spotting the enemy ship. ASW however is about dealing damage. How the f can you compare that? Its like being able to spot a DD but not being able to shoot it with main guns of your BB or CA just because you dont have the ammo for it. 

No, a ship having no ASW is unacceptable and it has no similarities with not having other consumables.

 

Btw. Especially this part here is hilarious. "Some ships have strong AA and Deff AA"  which ships are those? Please enlighten us. Unless enemy CV is a utter potato, there is not such a thing like strong AA. Not anymore.

Quote

I know, that this is not really popular decision, but it was done from balancing reasons and to also slightly change and update the roles of some ships. 

No this is not balancing. This is creating a class which doesnt have counterplay. Other words: creating a problem to sell the solution. No. Each ship should be able to deal damage to each ship. This is nothing to do with balancing. If you (dont take it personally i mean WG by saying you) care that much about game balance, I can name you at least 20 ships or features which needs to be nerfed to be balanced.

[Nauseica]

18 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

I mean, it is as it is. Some ships have direct ways how to defend against submarines, some unfortunately don't. It is the same with other consumables, as some ships have hydro, so they are much better to play against ships with torpedoes, as they can spot them from bigger distance than usual. Or radar, which can give a big advantage for those ships to spot enemies for quite a long distance. Some ships have strong AA and Deff AA so they are much more capable to defend themselves against CV etc.

I know, that this is not really popular decision, but it was done from balancing reasons and to also slightly change and update the roles of some ships. 

 

You just had a miscommunication fail .... balancing and favoritism is different things

 

You implement a new class in the game and you decide for "balancing" reasons that alot of ships that will not be able to have a chance to even fight them if unless the sub player is dumb enough to sail all the time on sea level. I played alot off coops to see the subs with various class ships and i can tell you my life was miserable when the sub was in 10m below water and i was not able to even scratch his paint cause i didnt had weapons to fight it.

 

Balancing means to give all sides a meaningful tool to fight and atleast have a fair fight between each other.

Hint : See what happens on T3/T4 with 3 cv's and no AA armament on the ships......

[YabbaCoe]

7 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

Are you being serious right now? All these other consumables are about mitigating damage or spotting the enemy ship. ASW however is about dealing damage. How the f can you compare that? Its like being able to spot a DD but not being able to shoot it with main guns of your BB or CA just because you dont have the ammo for it. 

No, a ship having no ASW is unacceptable and it has no similarities with not having other consumables.

 

Btw. Especially this part here is hilarious. "Some ships have strong AA and Deff AA"  which ships are those? Please enlighten us. Unless enemy CV is a utter potato, there is not such a thing like strong AA. Not anymore.

No this is not balancing. This is creating a class which doesnt have counterplay. Other words: creating a problem to sell the solution. No. Each ship should be able to deal damage to each ship. This is nothing to do with balancing. If you (dont take it personally i mean WG by saying you) care that much about game balance, I can name you at least 20 ships or features which needs to be nerfed to be balanced.

You can always deal damage to submarine, while it is on surface or in periscope depth with main guns, secondaries, even torpedoes. So those ships are not entirely invulnerable. And each ships is able to deal damage to Submarines - some more, some less. You can't spot her, but you know she is around when you see the ping on your ship? Well, isn't that the same thing with Shimakaze or other torpedo-focused DDs? What would you do in a slow battleship, while there is only Shimakaze against you? 

AAs are indeed not as "no fly zone" as before, but you still have ships with strong AA like Halland or american ships in general etc. Which doesn't mean, that they can't be destroyed by planes, but they have much better defence options than other ships. 

 

Probably it is not fair, that some ships got their ASW and some ships didn't. As always with every new lines we are trying to make them different, special, not to create exact same ship, but in different coat. 

[Hakssor]

The reason Mysore doesn't have ASW is because she is too good so they want to nerf it. Anyone who believes that [edited] that "she should count on other ships" as a reason is lacking half of brain or they haven't played at a high level. This is basically like giving T6+ ships no AA and tell them they should count on others for AA. Mysore is a Fiji-class cruiser and Perth has ASW. So by class and nation Mysore should have ASW. But she is the best performing T6 cruiser and of course they have to nerf it. 

45 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

I mean, it is as it is. Some ships have direct ways how to defend against submarines, some unfortunately don't. It is the same with other consumables, as some ships have hydro, so they are much better to play against ships with torpedoes, as they can spot them from bigger distance than usual. Or radar, which can give a big advantage for those ships to spot enemies for quite a long distance. Some ships have strong AA and Deff AA so they are much more capable to defend themselves against CV etc.

I know, that this is not really popular decision, but it was done from balancing reasons and to also slightly change and update the roles of some ships. 

 

These premium ships were never marketed as having no ASW. Even now there is nothing in the armory that says Mysore lacks ASW in the description. There is a phrase which says she lacks torpedoes but ASW is nowhere mentioned. The only thing that gives it away is if show it in port and start looking at stats. Deff AA/Radar/Hydro/AA were marketed from the get-go and people could knew from the beginning if they have it or not.

 

But you introduced a new mechanic which applies in a different way for every ship. I thought balancing shouldn't be applied to premiums which don't have the disclaimer? Or this is just another broken promise like many others lately. I'm ok with balancing the game but don't try to change a product after I bought it unless you offer full refunds for it. I didn't buy my Lenin last year knowing that it's gonna be very vulnerable to subs in a few months. WG should offer refunds for premiums with no ASW(except CVs, the class lacks it completely so it balances), no balancing disclaimer and they were offered for real money/dubs. Why would I ever buy a new premium again when WG can just introduce a new mechanic tomorrow and decides to just make the premium ship vulnerable to it?

[ghostbuster_]

First of all, Im gonna look like Im adressing you as a person but I adress the WG. So, thats said:

 

18 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

You can always deal damage to submarine, while it is on surface or in periscope depth with main guns, secondaries, even torpedoes. So those ships are not entirely invulnerable.

Ok, similar example would be this. Imagine DDs being only shootable outside their smoke. When they sit in smoke although you get into 2 km detection range of the DD, you cant shoot it because its in smoke. It doesnt make sense, does it. Well, this is what you create if you dont give every ship ASW.

Quote

And each ships is able to deal damage to Submarines - some more, some less.

No, they cant. Subs can stay at least 7mins underwater. And you cant do anything about it if you dont have ASW.

Quote

You can't spot her, but you know she is around when you see the ping on your ship?

I can spot her. I can sail on top of her but cant do anything because i dont have weapons for that...

Quote

Well, isn't that the same thing with Shimakaze or other torpedo-focused DDs?

Really? Omg. No, it isnt.

Quote

What would you do in a slow battleship, while there is only Shimakaze against you? 

Well i would kill it if i manage to spot her because i have the weapons to do that. Besides, shimakazes torps are not homing torps. I can easly dodge every single one of them. I know the torp reload of shima and i have the battle timer on the top right corner.  But in the case of subs, even if i manage to find her, i cant do anything except waiting for her to surface. And there is no dodging sub torps. Best thing you can do is mitigating the damage by angling. But considering they have such a low reload time on torps, not only as BB but as any other ship which doesnt have ASW, you have no counterplay against subs except waiting. Wow such a brilliant design. Such an effective counterplay.

Quote

AAs are indeed not as "no fly zone" as before, but you still have ships with strong AA like Halland or american ships in general etc. Which doesn't mean, that they can't be destroyed by planes, but they have much better defence options than other ships. 

It depends on the skill of CV player. As a surface ship, you cant do anything to change the outcome of that engagement. Thats why we have people who lose entire squad against one mino and people who can strike 10-12 minos combined.

Quote

Probably it is not fair, that some ships got their ASW and some ships didn't. As always with every new lines we are trying to make them different,

Yes you are trying new gimmicks. What you dont understand is, not every line should have a gimmick. Because you try that, gimmicks started to be more ridiculous every passing day.

Quote

special, not to create exact same ship, but in different coat. 

Of because you wouldnt do that at all. Its not like we have clone ships or somthing. Its not like you sold exactly same ships painted in black as new premium ships in your beloved boxes. 

 

Come on now. There is nothing to defend about this. No, every ship should be able to fight every other ship. 

[ghostbuster_]

Double post

[Hakssor]

29 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

You can always deal damage to submarine, while it is on surface or in periscope depth with main guns, secondaries, even torpedoes. So those ships are not entirely invulnerable. And each ships is able to deal damage to Submarines - some more, some less. You can't spot her, but you know she is around when you see the ping on your ship? Well, isn't that the same thing with Shimakaze or other torpedo-focused DDs? What would you do in a slow battleship, while there is only Shimakaze against you? 

AAs are indeed not as "no fly zone" as before, but you still have ships with strong AA like Halland or american ships in general etc. Which doesn't mean, that they can't be destroyed by planes, but they have much better defence options than other ships. 

 

Probably it is not fair, that some ships got their ASW and some ships didn't. As always with every new lines we are trying to make them different, special, not to create exact same ship, but in different coat. 

There are lots of things you can do against a shima. If you have radar/hydro you can spot it and attack it. You can also try your luck predicting where the torps are gonna be launched and push on it. Here if the sub is under periscope depth you can't do anything to it unless you have ASW. You can't even spot it with radar for your allies.

All the existing ships from the same class and at the same tier should've got the same ASW equipment. Maybe you can have CVs vulnerable as they should be anyway never spotted and right now there is no class CVs are actually vulnerable. Of course you can introduce new ships with stronger/weaker ASW later to make them different, for example a Commonwealth line with strong ASW.

[Amaha]

godzinę temu, YabbaCoe napisał:

(...) but you still have ships with strong AA like Halland or american ships in general etc. (...)

Currently, there is not a single one ship in the game that have "strong AA". Not even those You mention. Decent, at best. But strong? NONE!

 

 

Back to topic.

Submarines - they need more speed. While situations when cruisers and destroyers outruns you are ok, then when majority of battleships lews you behind makes this class even more boring than current aircraft carriers are (with is the most boring class in the game).

Surface ships - all units need to have ASW. I can't count situations when in battle stays ONLY ships whit no ASW and just sails above / near subs doing nothing useful. This is just boring wast of time.

[YabbaCoe]

31 minutes ago, MortuaEst_1 said:

There are lots of things you can do against a shima. If you have radar/hydro you can spot it and attack it. You can also try your luck predicting where the torps are gonna be launched and push on it. Here if the sub is under periscope depth you can't do anything to it unless you have ASW. You can't even spot it with radar for your allies.

All the existing ships from the same class and at the same tier should've got the same ASW equipment. Maybe you can have CVs vulnerable as they should be anyway never spotted and right now there is no class CVs are actually vulnerable. Of course you can introduce new ships with stronger/weaker ASW later to make them different, for example a Commonwealth line with strong ASW.

Well, but if you are in a BB that doesn't have radar/hydro, like f.e. Yamato, you can't really spot her, when Shima player is playing well with concealment... Prediction can work (actually absolutely the same thing as with Subs) but Shima can send torps and change the position quickly, so even if you predict the movement, it can be on the opposite side... So unless the Shima is spotted by some of your teammates, you are also defenseless. But as always, all depends on the skill and reactions of each players. 

My point also is. ASW and Depth Charges can damage a submarine in basically all depths, so while is it deployed right on her, she can't even defend herself. So if every single ship in the battle have an option to damage you, but you can't defend yourself if it is deployed, their survivability would be even worse than now. And if the submarine really want to do something in the battle, they need to get closer and while they are spotted, Dive capacity depletes basically twice as fast.

 

The thing is, are subs OP, that they need even more ways how to fight them?

 

[hedgehog_s]

Lets get one thing straight here - YabbaCoe is not to blame - however whoever gave him the job of commenting on Subs in Co Ops is a comedian - he has barely 500 Co Op battles played. Will WG listen to me with 35,000 battles played ? Nope.

 

[ghostbuster_]

54 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

Well, but if you are in a BB that doesn't have radar/hydro, like f.e. Yamato, you can't really spot her, when Shima player is playing well with concealment...

But if shima fcks up and gets spotted by me, i can kill her since i have the weapons for it... 

54 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

Prediction can work (actually absolutely the same thing as with Subs)

How is it the same thing? I can spot the sub but if my ship doesnt have ASW, i cant do anything about her. If i spot shima, I can shoot the freaking shima. How is this the same thing? Tell me.

54 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

but Shima can send torps and change the position quickly, so even if you predict the movement, it can be on the opposite side... So unless the Shima is spotted by some of your teammates, you are also defenseless. But as always, all depends on the skill and reactions of each players. 

My point also is. ASW and Depth Charges can damage a submarine in basically all depths, so while is it deployed right on her, she can't even defend herself. So if every single ship in the battle have an option to damage you, but you can't defend yourself if it is deployed, their survivability would be even worse than now.

And thats why subs have ridiculous concealment. Thats why they are very hard to spot. Even impossible at max dept...

Besides this is not the solution!!! Just because sub cant defend itself, taking away the counter play is just beyond dumb. Maybe you should search for a consumable or a new feature which would give sub a better chance to survive the dept charges. 

54 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

And if the submarine really want to do something in the battle, they need to get closer and while they are spotted, Dive capacity depletes basically twice as fast.

Why should they get closer? You gave them long range super fast homing torps for some freaking reason...

54 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

The thing is, are subs OP, that they need even more ways how to fight them?

 

This is irrelevant!! Jesus. Just because something is not OP, removing the counterplay is not acceptable. 

Z-31 is not OP. Well lets make her untouchable if she sits in her smoke. What kind of a logic is this. Next fcking level.

[ghostbuster_]

47 minutes ago, hedgehog_s said:

Lets get one thing straight here - YabbaCoe is not to blame - however whoever gave him the job of commenting on Subs in Co Ops is a comedian - he has barely 500 Co Op battles played. Will WG listen to me with 35,000 battles played ? Nope.

 

Ofc he is not the one who should be blamed but instead of coming with these ridiculous arguments and try to defend the removal of counterplay, he should put some effort into telling douche with 500 battles whats the problem is. 

[Pikkozoikum]

59 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

Ofc he is not the one who should be blamed but instead of coming with these ridiculous arguments and try to defend the removal of counterplay, he should put some effort into telling douche with 500 battles whats the problem is. 

I don't see why every ship should get special counter play against subs. Though, why not giving all ships radar :-|

If you give every ship ASW, then there is way more pressure on the submarines, there will be constant DC drops on a sub from all places. Do balance that, they would need to nerf DCs extremly. And then the single ships wouldn't be able to sink a Submarine.

Would be the same with radar, giving everyone radar would only work, if radar would get nerfed

 

[ghostbuster_]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I don't see why every ship should get special counter play against subs. Though, why not giving all ships radar :-|

Do you deal damage automatically after pressing radar? No. How do you deal damage after preasing radar? With your guns. Its so f stupid to try compare ASW with any consumable like radar. You can compare ASW with your guns. Its like not having guns to deal damage to the enemy ship.

Quote

If you give every ship ASW, then there is way more pressure on the submarines, there will be constant DC drops on a sub from all places.

So, why does every ship gets guns to be able to shoot DDs? Dont they have enough pressure already? Lets say we remore the ability of damaging DDs from certain ships. How stupid is this... jesus. 

Quote

Do balance that, they would need to nerf DCs extremly. And then the single ships wouldn't be able to sink a Submarine.

To balance that they can introduce some new features to subs or new consumables or something. But each ship must be able to deal damage to each ship.

Quote

Would be the same with radar, giving everyone radar would only work, if radar would get nerfed

 

Again. Comparing ASW with radar is beyond stupid. Its mindblowing.

[ghostbuster_]

Got it? @YabbaCoe or should I try painting it to simplify it even more?

[mtm78]

3 hours ago, Amaha said:

Submarines - they need more speed.

 

Say what? You want to give them nuclear reactors? WG advertised this as an historically accurate game, listen to all the mumbo jumbo people have to rattle off when WoWs sponsors a YT video. Submarines in WWII should be SLOWER not faster.

 

Ow wait, that's not fun? I guess the solution to that would be not putting them in the game. 

[Gsb2016]

I have little intention to play submarines often (the same for CV) however I will of course have to play against them. My experience of this in co-op is, to say the least, less than thrilling.

 

I have a number of concerns. 
 

First there are no bot divisions in co-op yet I can see a submarine divisioned with one or more HE spammers being devastating as it will impose yet another pressure on the already over worked damage control especially for BB. Now you have to time when to extinguish a fire or flood, adding the “dismiss ping” to this simply over burdens it. Clever submarine players will ping you and tell their division mates when you use you dam con whilst the same will happen vice versa. If you are going to have homing torpedoes based on ping please find another way of dismissing it.

 

Second I hear what is said about there being no difference between not spotting and thus being able to damage a Shima  and the same with subs. It is not that simple. I have been in countless battles where there have been well played destroyers and never felt the same frustration I feel now when in a GK for example in co-op and the 3 remaining vessels are submarines. It really feels like quit, play another ship, or indeed, game time. It is meant to be fun playing a game this is not.

 

Third, going forward into fandoms if they arrive then on 12v12 games if there are 3 subs and a CV (which inevitably is usually unspotted until the very last) that is 33% of the enemies a ship like the GK will not be able to see/damage for large parts of the battle. Add in another couple of destroyers and it become 50% that are likely to go unseen. It is already bad enough in the 4 destroyer 1 CV games from an enjoyment perspective, it is only going to get worse especially in the first few months when submarines are the new must try.

 

Lastly I know it is an arcade game not a simulation (to which Subs are far better suited see Cold Waters for example) but having things like the battleship depth charge drop is stretching ever further the claim of any historical accuracy to the game which is a shame.

[Benser33]

I can understand why not every ship has ASW and it makes some sense to choose the ships that historically did not have ASW installed to not have ASW.

 

When you look at other ships armaments, like guns or torpedos or secondaries, or tools like reload boosters and hydro and smoke, they're not designed to specifically counter one type of ship. ASW is designed to counter one type of ship; subs. So, if every single ship in the game has some sort of ASW then subs would get relentlessly bombarded with weaponry which would just make them pointless to play, if you were the only sub on the team you would immediately get trashed with 3-5+ ships worth of ASW as soon as your were detected, so to have any chance of working each individual ships ASW would have to be so weak that it would hardly work by itself.

 

This same sort of logic applies to the distribution of radar, it isn't available on every ship because if every ship had radar then it would be constantly activated all over the place and to balance it radar would need to be nerfed so that combined radars were tolerable but individual radars were much less useful.

 

Giving everyone low performance ASW would just be ridiculous design, no individual player would be able to personally defend themselves well, the only hope to counter subs would be the combined efforts of multiple players, making self defense in the later stages of a game impossible. But you probably think "well now some players can't defend themselves at all", but just like when playing smokeless ships that enjoy smoke or gunnery ships with no radar or smoke ships with no hydro, you have to rely on those few that do have these things and you have to support them while they support you, because it's a team game although selfish players can do just fine it's team players that win games.

 

And also, the statement isn't true anyway, even ships without dedicated ASW can damage subs eventually. Just like how ships can eventually shoot at CVs once they get in range, and eventually damage DDs once they reveal their positions, and eventually kill BBs once you burn through their damage controls, repairs and HP.

 

There is a reason not every ship has everything. The only thing that every single ship in this game has is damage control. You don't need every thing on every ship.

[S_h_i_v_a]

7 ore fa, YabbaCoe ha scritto:

You can always deal damage to submarine, while it is on surface or in periscope depth with main guns, secondaries, even torpedoes. So those ships are not entirely invulnerable. And each ships is able to deal damage to Submarines - some more, some less. You can't spot her, but you know she is around when you see the ping on your ship? Well, isn't that the same thing with Shimakaze or other torpedo-focused DDs? What would you do in a slow battleship, while there is only Shimakaze against you? 

AAs are indeed not as "no fly zone" as before, but you still have ships with strong AA like Halland or american ships in general etc. Which doesn't mean, that they can't be destroyed by planes, but they have much better defence options than other ships. 

 

Probably it is not fair, that some ships got their ASW and some ships didn't. As always with every new lines we are trying to make them different, special, not to create exact same ship, but in different coat. 

 

 

And when are you going to warn players that most premium ships have no ASW?

 

 

[Hakssor]

Comparing ASW with radar is non-sense. One is a consumable, the other is a type of attack. Even without radar I can still damage destroyers. If a friendly cruiser uses radar everyone on the team can damage the DD but if a sub is spotted by hydro only ASW ships can damage it.

46 minutes ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

I can understand why not every ship has ASW and it makes some sense to choose the ships that historically did not have ASW installed to not have ASW.

 

When you look at other ships armaments, like guns or torpedos or secondaries, or tools like reload boosters and hydro and smoke, they're not designed to specifically counter one type of ship. ASW is designed to counter one type of ship; subs. So, if every single ship in the game has some sort of ASW then subs would get relentlessly bombarded with weaponry which would just make them pointless to play, if you were the only sub on the team you would immediately get trashed with 3-5+ ships worth of ASW as soon as your were detected, so to have any chance of working each individual ships ASW would have to be so weak that it would hardly work by itself.

 

This same sort of logic applies to the distribution of radar, it isn't available on every ship because if every ship had radar then it would be constantly activated all over the place and to balance it radar would need to be nerfed so that combined radars were tolerable but individual radars were much less useful.

 

Giving everyone low performance ASW would just be ridiculous design, no individual player would be able to personally defend themselves well, the only hope to counter subs would be the combined efforts of multiple players, making self defense in the later stages of a game impossible. But you probably think "well now some players can't defend themselves at all", but just like when playing smokeless ships that enjoy smoke or gunnery ships with no radar or smoke ships with no hydro, you have to rely on those few that do have these things and you have to support them while they support you, because it's a team game although selfish players can do just fine it's team players that win games.

 

And also, the statement isn't true anyway, even ships without dedicated ASW can damage subs eventually. Just like how ships can eventually shoot at CVs once they get in range, and eventually damage DDs once they reveal their positions, and eventually kill BBs once you burn through their damage controls, repairs and HP.

 

There is a reason not every ship has everything. The only thing that every single ship in this game has is damage control. You don't need every thing on every ship.

You know what else is designed to counter one type of ship? AA.  Also AA skills got the ASW enhancement so it's clearly they're the same type . How many ships don't have any sort of AA from T6+? Would you like to have no AA on your T10 ship? and see how it is for the CV to just come at you freely? Do you understand that no ASW promotes passive play, no crossfire and lemming trains? Ships with no ASW wouldn't go alone anymore on a flank because they would be vulnerable. You don't need to stay together to counter radar, your comparison is literally non-sense.

[ghostbuster_]

44 minutes ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

 

And also, the statement isn't true anyway, even ships without dedicated ASW can damage subs eventually. Just like how ships can eventually shoot at CVs once they get in range, and eventually damage DDs once they reveal their positions, and eventually kill BBs once you burn through their damage controls, repairs and HP.

Ok, enlighten us. You are in a cruiser or BB which doesnt have ASW. Your friendly sub spotted an enemy sub lets say 9 km away from your postition at operating dept meaning you cant shoot it. How the hell are you gonna damage that sub if you dont have ASW? And how is it the same thing ships shooting CVs once they get spotted or shooting at DD which gets spotted? Like i said, imagine a DD gets spotted in her smoke but you cant deal damage to that DD because it still sits in her smoke. This would be a comparable case. How does this sound? Stupid, isnt it?

44 minutes ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

 

There is a reason not every ship has everything. The only thing that every single ship in this game has is damage control. You don't need every thing on every ship.

Every ship has an armament with which they can deal damage to other ships. Name me one ship which cant deal damage to a spotted enemy in firing range? There is none. So, every ship in this game capable to deal damage any enemy. This is hilarious how people dont understand this and compare an armament with consumables...  WG is full of crap but its playerbase is something else.

[Benser33]

1 hour ago, MortuaEst_1 said:

Comparing ASW with radar is non-sense. One is a consumable, the other is a type of attack. Even without radar I can still damage destroyers. If a friendly cruiser uses radar everyone on the team can damage the DD but if a sub is spotted by hydro only ASW ships can damage it.

I said the distribution of ASW is like the distribution of radar. I am comparing the method of distributing this functionality among ships, not comparing the two things side by side. I could just as easily have said "This same sort of logic applies to the distribution of torpedos, they aren't available on every ship because if every ship had torps then it would be constantly fired all over the place and to balance them would need to be nerfed so that combined torp waves were tolerable but individual torps were much less useful."

 

And you're still partly mistaken because if a sub is detected by hydro or anything else it's battery runs out faster, hastening the time before it is forced to submerge, then everyone can shoot at it. So even simply detecting it with no ASW options lowers the subs survivability. But WG need to impose a penalty on subs for running out of cap, cos atm they get 15s of free air when they run out and after being forced to submerge can dive again with only 2s of air and get another 15s of free air.

 

Quote

You know what else is designed to counter one type of ship? AA.  Also AA skills got the ASW enhancement so it's clearly they're the same type . How many ships don't have any sort of AA from T6+? Would you like to have no AA on your T10 ship? and see how it is for the CV to just come at you freely? Do you understand that no ASW promotes passive play, no crossfire and lemming trains? Ships with no ASW wouldn't go alone anymore on a flank because they would be vulnerable.

Yeah, AA and ASW are totally the same. Subs can attack any player on the field in a matter of seconds, changing from one side of the map to the other in just a minute with no terrain obstacles or fear of proximity to enemies. So it totally makes sense for every ship to have ASW because they could be attacked by subs from any angle at any moment regardless of their positioning and with only moments to react.

 

Or, not. AA is a defense, ASW options are offensive weapons. Your AA will never kill a CV or any other player. But your ASW can kill a sub. Players dont spot an aircraft slowly approaching at 20knts and all aim their AA in that direction and then the CV explodes. But if 6 players with ASW planes spot a sub at the same time they can all drop airstrikes on it at the same time. It's not remotely comparable.

 

You can say lack of ASW promotes passive play, but what some people call passive play can be intelligent play, rushing secondary tirpitz down the middle of the cap by holding W from the start of the game is not passive play but it certainly isn't smart either. Not every game is won by rushing ahead, you don't earn extra exp for winning as fast as possible (usually the opposite). And why would you not go alone on a flank with no ASW? You have an ASW plane and suddenly you're not afraid of being caught out by CV or encountering a DD that outspots and outruns you or having your flank fail and ending up being overextended and isolated instead of flanking? Just use your brain like before. Enemy has radar, better see where they are before I push DD into cap. Enemy has thunderer, lets see where it goes before I take cruiser to the open. Enemy has asashio, better not take my BB down big open areas. Enemy has sub, better not isolate myself until we know where it is.

 

Don't get me wrong, I make no claims that the current state of ASW is sufficient, I have no where near enough experience or information to say that. All I am saying is that I understand why it doesn't have to be on every single ship.

 

1 hour ago, ghostbuster_ said:

Ok, enlighten us. You are in a cruiser or BB which doesnt have ASW. Your friendly sub spotted an enemy sub lets say 9 km away from your postition at operating dept meaning you cant shoot it. How the hell are you gonna damage that sub if you dont have ASW? And how is it the same thing ships shooting CVs once they get spotted or shooting at DD which gets spotted? Like i said, imagine a DD gets spotted in her smoke but you cant deal damage to that DD because it still sits in her smoke. This would be a comparable case. How does this sound? Stupid, isnt it?

A comparable case would be you spot a DD but it's behind an island so you still can't shoot it or you spot a CV but you still can't shoot it because it's not in range.

or you spot a sub and you still can't shoot it because it still has some dive capacity left. The restriction on dive capacity needs some improvement, but it's there.

 

If you are in a cruiser or a BB that doesn't have ASW and a friendly sub spots an enemy sub 9km away from you, be glad that you are now aware of that sub, and that you are 9km away from that sub, and faster than that sub, and that you have a friendly sub next to that sub and that hopefully someone else on your team has ASW which can help deal with the sub so that you don't have to.

And when you play a game and you are one of the ships that has ASW make sure you pay attention to enemy subs cos people might rely on you to threaten that sub. Just like every other ship relies on other ships with different capabilties to use them to their fullest. Hardly requires any new player skills to manage subs.

 

1 hour ago, ghostbuster_ said:

Name me one ship which cant deal damage to a spotted enemy in firing range?

What a stupid question. "Name me one ship that cant shoot something that it can shoot?"

Obviously the answer to this question is (almost*) none, because every ship can shoot targets that it can shoot at, if you only care about one rigid set of circumstances where the enemy is both visible and in range. If only I had known many years ago that I could just deal damage to spotted enemies in range and ignore everything else because every ship in the game can deal damage to spotted enemies in their firing range, life would have been so much simpler.

 

*But even then you are wrong because you cant damage any spotted enemies that are in your range if they have terrain cover, so under certain circumstances you can absolutely have a spotted enemy in your range that you cannot damage.

 

1 hour ago, ghostbuster_ said:

There is none. So, every ship in this game capable to deal damage any enemy.

Times change, now there are ships that you cannot always damage, even when you can see them and they are in range.

Just like when enemies are behind islands! Which is how things are right now, so maybe times have not changed so much. If every ship needs ASW to deal with subs, maybe every ship should also have dive bombers, or at least dutch airstrikes, to deal with enemies that are behind islands.

Because that is how the game works, right? "Every ship in this game capable to deal damage any enemy."

Now you will have to wait between 3 and 7 minutes for a subs dive capacity to run out so that you can shoot it if you don't have ASW. Because you are capable of dealing damage to subs without ASW, you just can't do it simply because they're spotted and in range.

 

1 hour ago, ghostbuster_ said:

This is hilarious how people dont understand this and compare an armament with consumables...   WG is full of crap but its playerbase is something else. 

The only thing funny here is your inability to understand the implications of your own demand.

 

The playerbase really is something else when players with so many games from good clans still come up with such nonsense. " every ship in this game capable to deal damage any enemy" is not an argument, it is your personal expectation. Imagine expecting every ship to have ASW, you would have to nerf ASW into the floor for any sub to have any chance of survival and that would make each ships own individual ASW worthless by itself. What would be the point, did you even consider that?

 

It is a team based game. If your complaint was that there is currently no MM rules to ensure that every team has some ASW, that would be totally valid. I've heard of games with 3 subs and no DDs, that is stupid. If the team at least has ASW on it proportional to the number of subs there should be less of an issue. But expecting every ship to have ASW is just stupid. There's no historical precendent for this and it's not good balance either.

 

As I said above, I am not claiming ASW is correct right now, nor any element of SS. There are still notable changes they should make. But adding ASW to every ship is not one of them.