Christ, how bad is the Zao now

[KillStealBoss]

3 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

How do compare ships of different Tiers? In absolute values? 

I can keep my answers short and do not need to ramble.

What a useless post here that doesn't tell anything. No more arguments I guess. Git Gud and play more Zao. Cause you have zero to offer. A very loud emptiness. 

I'm asking you one more time - why would anyone play the game and just argue with others about spreadsheets? You play only to show off in forum "see I have some battles played?" Pathetic. 

 

[KillStealBoss]

13 minutes ago, MannequinSkywalker said:

Per tier is an invalid argument unless we're talking about a T10 ship.

He's just having not enough coal to get it - that's why he's talking BS here. I think its also the reason why he doesn't have the Salem. Lol. Idk why he's playing at all if he jest comes here with his arguments based on other players performance. 

[ColonelPete]

4 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

What a useless post here that doesn't tell anything. No more arguments I guess. Git Gud and play more Zao. Cause you have zero to offer. A very loud emptiness. 

I'm asking you one more time - why would anyone play the game and just argue with others about spreadsheets? You play only to show off in forum "see I have some battles played?" Pathetic. 

People that understand the difference between subjective and objective arguments do that. But I already told you that.

2 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

He's just having not enough coal to get it - that's why he's talking BS here. 

Must be the reason I bought Napoli for coal....

[KillStealBoss]

Just now, ColonelPete said:

 

Must be the reason I bought Napoli for coal....

I have all of them bob.

Just now, ColonelPete said:

People that understand the difference between subjective and objective arguments do that. But I already told you that

So you can have zero battles and argue about playing T10s based o na spreadsheet and experience of other players. So gave you the right to speak on behalf of the playerbase and their stats? Who do you think you are? 

[MannequinSkywalker]

14 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

How do compare ships of different Tiers? In absolute values? 

Nah, i think ships should be compared by the amount of posts in the forum. Whoever posts more and has more post count than their battles should have the final say....

[MannequinSkywalker]

11 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

He's just having not enough coal to get it - that's why he's talking BS here. I think its also the reason why he doesn't have the Salem. Lol. Idk why he's playing at all if he jest comes here with his arguments based on other players performance. 

Sometime you have to ignore certain people. Maybe it's time.

[ColonelPete]

2 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

I have all of them bob.

So you can have zero battles and argue about playing T10s based o na spreadsheet and experience of other players. So gave you the right to speak on behalf of the playerbase and their stats? Who do you think you are? 

And? Is that some achievement worth speaking about?

Yes, you can speak about a performance of a ship. It is not difficult.

4 minutes ago, MannequinSkywalker said:

Nah, i think ships should be compared by the amount of posts in the forum. Whoever posts more and has more post count than their battles should have the final say....

Interesting opinion, but that makes it even more obvious that you have no clue what you are talking about.

[MannequinSkywalker]

1 minute ago, ColonelPete said:

you have no clue what you are talking about.

I don't, but you do. Welcome to ignored list and keep populating the forum about stuff you have no idea including game play. Gl, hf.

[KillStealBoss]

11 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

And? Is that some achievement worth speaking about?

Yes, you can speak about a performance of a ship. It is not difficult.

So you can go and speak about of certain CV is good or bad but you have no idea how to play them. Good stuff, good stuff. A 50 game newbie that has T4s at best can argue about T10s based on spreadsheet. That's dumb. 

 

And you're highjacking other people performance to make useless posts on forum that make no sense while you're not even close to be a decent player in terms of teamplay. Stop highjacking others performance same show your one. Ah yeah I forgot.... You have none of that 🤣

[KillStealBoss]

8 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

but that makes it even more obvious that you have no clue what you are talking about.

Based on your gameplay "performance" you're the one here to have no clue. Git Gud. 

 

Zao needs buffs whether you like it or not. And if you disagree go play it

[Pikkozoikum]

13 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

So you can go and speak about of certain CV is good or bad but you have no idea how to play them. Good stuff, good stuff. A 50 game newbie that has T4s at best can argue about T10s based on spreadsheet. That's dumb. 

It really depends on the topic and question. In some cases, someone can discuss certain topcis, in some that person might be not a good pick. So it really depends.

For example if we talk about DPM and basic stats, then you don't need to play a certain ship, it's all about the stats. Just an example.

But if you want talk about Zao tactics  and strageties, then it's different, if that person have no clue about such type of cruisers. Though even then, a person still can imagine, how it could be

[KillStealBoss]

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

But if you want talk about Zao tactics  and strageties, then it's different, if that person have no clue about such type of cruisers. Though even then, a person still can imagine, how it could be

This is what I'm more into. And this raw number dude with only 19 battles in Zao (Playing 5 years in this game!!) have an audacity to say it's ok based on it's "perfomance" of other people. 

As I said before : People can play it ? yes. Sometimes they get good battles? yes. Is it nice to play and enjoyable? no, it's a struggle to pull off and good result. 

[ColonelPete]

20 minutes ago, MannequinSkywalker said:

I don't, but you do. 

Self-awareness is the first step 

20 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

So you can go and speak about of certain CV is good or bad but you have no idea how to play them. Good stuff, good stuff. A 50 game newbie that has T4s at best can argue about T10s based on spreadsheet. That's dumb. 

 

And you're highjacking other people performance to make useless posts on forum that make no sense while you're not even close to be a decent player in terms of teamplay. Stop highjacking others performance same show your one. Ah yeah I forgot.... You have none of that 🤣

Certainly. The forum is full of people who complain about CV, who never played them. And Unicums with many thousands of battles are in agreement.

I am not hijacking anything. I suggest you look up that word first. 

And I have no idea why someone like you makes complaints about teamplay and what this has to do with this topic.

25 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Based on your gameplay "performance" you're the one here to have no clue. Git Gud. 

Still better than yours. 

[HMS_Kilinowski]

I was invited by @MacArthur92 to dump my humble opinion on the Zao.

 

The Zao is hopelessly outdated and somewhat powercrept.

 

The original concept of the Zao was to be a long range HE spammer, harrassing pushing ships on a weak flank. This once upon a time worked pretty well. The 203mm guns are able to pen 32mm of armor. The Zao does not have good dpm, but it has a tight dispersion and good fire chance. This mix allowed Zao to reliably hit other cruisers and dodge their shells, while they sprayed all over the place. So the effective dpm was still good and the fires gave it the upper hand at its niche.

The backbone of Zao's survivability is not taking damage. The shell trajectories are flat, so it hardly finds islands to sit behind. It's an open-water kiter. It relies on short rudder shift and a tight turning circle, the latter of which it never had. It baits shots and then maneuvers hard to not be in the area of impact by the time the enemy fire hits the water. That worked reasonably well, especially with the slower shells of older BB lines.

Finally, it had 9.7km concealment.

 

Now it has been nerfed for a while. The rudder shift is slower due to the nerf on the legendary module. The concealment suffered from the general nerf on Concealment Expert. In the old days CE reduced detection range by 12% for cruisers, instead of now 10%. That is a very minor change that on most cruisers did not change their play. It however messed a lot with the pace of the Zao. A typical defensive move on the weak flank in the Zao was to throw torpedoes in the way of pushing BBs, before opening fire. You never switched to guns in the first place, so the Priority Target indicator did not give away the attack. Zao however has very bad torpedo angles, so it needs to give full broadside to dump them. It cannot be done, when spotted, or you risk being deleted. With a concealment of 9.7km and 12km torps, the Zao had 2.3km stealth torping window. That was just enough to drop the torps on an opponent going full speed towards you, turn away and be sufficiently angled by the time he would catch up and spot you. Being angled was not just important for not getting punished, but most of all for not being suspected of just having dropped torps. All good players knew the weak torp angles. If a Zao turned in to much, they knew it was torping. The trick was to drop torps unseen and look like a harmlessly kiting cruiser. When the concealment nerf hit, that pace was ruined, cause one of two things now happened. Either you got spotted too early after torping, while turning out and got hit in the groin plus you gave away your torp attack. Or you took that into account and torped from further away, which means that ships moving towards you at an angle, would no longer catch up with your torpedoes before they ran out. Anyway, the stealth nerf heavily messed with the Zao.

 

The rudder shift nerf on the Legendary Module hurt the Zao a lot. The LM-Zao appeared to be more powerful than the range- or reload-mod. Thing is, the LM made the Zao somewhat work. The slightly better rudder shift, combined with a reasonable range increase and better dispersion is just what the Zao needed to keep up. A range Zao is just sad. It has no impact, cause it's not a threat and the dpm is poor. The reload Zao with even worse turret traverse is just a sitting duck at a range where it is hit way more often. RN-CAs fight at that distance and they can hardly survive even with their zombie heal. The LM was the sweet spot. Zao needs more range, but not as much as the range mod gives. The LM just gave you that slight comfortable increase. At that range your dispersion makes you miss a lot, so the LM gave you better dispersion. And finally, with rail guns being more prevalent, the Zao needs to pull its rear out of the impact zone just in time to not get citadelled. The rudder shift buff on the LM helped with that. Zao was not invulnerable, but at least it had a fair chance.

 

The Zao is not what it was anymore.

It gets plane-spotted too often, it's isolated defensive position makes it an ideal target for air strikes. The Henri was the ship that put Zao on the bench for Clan Battles. It did everything better. It was faster, could dodge harder, had more range, could pen 40mm armor and it had torp angles and the gun reload booster to dominate cruiser duels. Now even the Henri is dead. It got killed by the Venezia. The Venezia has 11k hp more than Zao. It's got slightly less range than LM-Zao, but a Sansonetti to make up for that. It outguns the Zao with a comparable build. But most of all the Venezia became the meta with the increasing amount of heavily armored ships. The Venezia can pen even 50mm armor. While Zao gets shatters on the center deck of half the BBs in the game, Venezia can still pen everything but Kremlin armor.

 

So now Zao is not a choice for Clan Battles anymore, cause Venezia can do everything better. Wargaming needs to ask themselves if the fact that they limit the number of a particular ship is not proof that it is too good and the fact that nobody takes a Zao anymore is proof that it is outdated. Limits on ships are a cheap work-around to avoid balancing.

Random battles are becoming increasingly campy and lethargic. Most cruisers these days pick the range mod. If all cruiser have range mod, you don't want to be that one cruiser that is way closer to the enemy and an attractive target to shoot at. And let's be honest: The LM is more of a sidegrade now and as such not worth wasting lots of reseach points. So you just play the Zao from 18.8km range with range mod and become a spectator with gun turrets. This is not an attractive play style.

 

So I personally haven't touched my Zao in months, a ship that I once found worthy of a perma camo. It used to be my ship in Clan Battles, but was not a reasonable pick for more than 2 years now. Consequently, I moved my Yamamoto commander away from it and now there is a commander with commander points not even distributed on it. It's a museum.

[KillStealBoss]

9 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Still better than yours. 

Your one? based on what? Your imagination? Especially on T10? lel just look at your stats maybe you forgot. meh at best not even close me, as I'm not something great at all.

[ColonelPete]

2 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Your one? based on what? Your imagination? Especially on T10? lel just look at your stats maybe you forgot. meh at best not even close me, as I'm not something great at all.

Solo Winrate. Do not look at your division numbers were you get carried by your teammates.

[KillStealBoss]

11 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Solo Winrate. Do not look at your division numbers were you get carried by your teammates.

pfff I don't care. You have a clan if not go to another to play div. I'm playing this game mostly in div not because to statpad my stats on lower tiers like you do. Cause I like the company of other on discord. But yeah, who would want to play with a annoying selfish dude like you. Learn to teamplay. I also so your carrying xDDD yeah... lol. Espiecially in your Austin.

Go and carry a team in your Zao. kek.

[Pikkozoikum]

12 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

This once upon a time

 

This will take a while to read :O

[ColonelPete]

10 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

pfff I don't care. You have a clan if not go to another to play div. I'm playing this game mostly in div not because to statpad my stats on lower tiers like you do. Cause I like the company of other on discord. But yeah, who would want to play with a annoying selfish dude like you. Learn to teamplay. I also so your carrying xDDD yeah... lol. Espiecially in your Austin.

No need to get defensive. And for someone who played more low Tier battles than me, you should be careful with your accusations.

And I have no idea why you bring up Austin, but you probably want to tell me that your solo performance on Sojuz is representative of your skill. I personally would not pay that much attention to a lone ship with such a few battles, but that is your choice.

[KillStealBoss]

7 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

more low Tier battles than me

look at my amount of tier 8-10... literally 63% of my battles are on those tiers. Stop lying.

You in the other hand have less than 40% on high tiers. how legitimate you are... bob.

 

And again go and play your Zao bob not T6s

[RenamedUser_92906789]

Zao just got worse 

 

https://youtu.be/TwOW8toblYg

[ColonelPete]

2 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

look at my amount of tier 8-10... literally 63% of my battles are on those tiers. Stop lying.

You still have more battles in low Tier than me...

[KillStealBoss]

6 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

You still have more battles in low Tier than me...

So what your percentage of battles on low ones is higher than my one. Stop statpadding and go play T10.

I have 37% on low tiers you got almost 70%.  

I have 3.5 times more battles than you in general but we look at the %. I have more battles on T8-10 (24k) which is 2x you ALL battles. bob. This is how small your T10 experience is... like a tiny mouse to an elephant.

[Pikkozoikum]

14 minutes ago, nambr9 said:

Zao just got worse 

 

https://youtu.be/TwOW8toblYg

Zao is fine :3

 

New Meta. Learn all the funnel angles of all ships

[Pikkozoikum]

7 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

So what your percentage of battles on low ones is higher than my one. Stop statpadding and go play T10.

I have 37% on low tiers you got almost 70%.  

I have 3.5 times more battles than you in general but we look at the %. I have more battles on T8-10 (24k) which is 2x you ALL battles. bob. This is how small your T10 experience is... like a tiny mouse to an elephant.

I think it's the discussion should focus more on statements and arguments and stuff like that, then about the players who participate on the discussion.