Christ, how bad is the Zao now

[pra3y]

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, PaxtonQuigly said:

ThAtS yOuR wHoLe ArGuMeNt

Christ almighty get off your high horse. There is no argument. There is players claiming the Zao is ultra mega bad, and there is me claiming she isnt. 

People are just really bad at playing her. 

Looking at the 25% best players on T10 cruisers, then Zao is at the bottom.

 

Though the 25% statistic is also not that accurate, because Zao is a ship, that many people own. If 100 people own a new prem cruiser, than the 25% best are 25 players. While if 100,000 players own a silver ship, the 25% best would be 25,000 players. Thats a big difference ^^

 

But still, being at the bottom is something, looking at any stats, she is alway in the bottom half.

 

For the fun, I looked at the player with the highest PR on Zao and checked his T10 cruisers with more than 20 games (lowest number 31 battles with Austin). From 9 cruisers, Zao is on 8 (WR) ^^

[woppy101]

2 hours ago, PaxtonQuigly said:

ThAtS yOuR wHoLe ArGuMeNt

Christ almighty get off your high horse. There is no argument. There is players claiming the Zao is ultra mega bad, and there is me claiming she isnt. 

People are just really bad at playing her. 

PMSL, Zao is mega bad now, she is still my no1 played ship and is the only ship in my top 5 that I have under 50% win and only 1 or 2 under 50% in my top 10. Come back when you have a few more battles under your belt 

[WWDragon]

6 hours ago, PaxtonQuigly said:

Nation flavor, yes. But that flavor hasn't changed since... 2017? So why is now suddenly the Zao very bad, but the HIV and Hinden are fine? 

 

Because ...

 

Back then the Zao was utterly broken. Being able to stealth farm bbs....

 

It always comes down to this, Zao purpose was long range fire support having no armor or rate of fire to really do anything else, hydro is strictly for self-defense so there is not much utility either ... that is pretty much how the IJN line ends up playing as Zao have the same aspects with perhaps more usable torpedoes.

 

But the players appear to hate (non-DD) specialized ships and WG likes to design ships with some "idea" behind it, this is why the original USN cruiser line was shorter range but much tankier as IJN was longer ranged with bad armor, with global changes the IJN line started losing what originally made it work as the USN line was less affected or even in some cases buffed.

 

Zao is bad because the players dont want a (good) specialized ship and WG isnt going to change the IJN cruiser line to be like the USN CA line except without radar but with torpedoes.

 

[PaxtonQuigly]

2 minutes ago, woppy101 said:

PMSL, Zao is mega bad now, she is still my no1 played ship and is the only ship in my top 5 that I have under 50% win and only 1 or 2 under 50% in my top 10. 

And is that maybe because you played her alot when you were still learning the game? When you play her now I'm sure you will do a lot better. 

4 minutes ago, woppy101 said:

Come back when you have a few more battles under your belt 

???????????

9 minutes ago, WWDragon said:

Zao is bad because the players dont want a (good) specialized ship and WG isnt going to change the IJN cruiser line to be like the USN CA line except without radar but with torpedoes.

Which is a shame imo. As the IJN CA line teaches players alot of classic Cruiser do's and dont's. But hey, what do we expect with the current playerbase? They just want fast 'click and go' action. 

[RepSrb]

lol played zao allot in old days, didnt touch it for years , hp is crap heal is bad and thats all  , any  new tier 9 ship can beat zao today. any!

[Prophecy82]

1 hour ago, RepSrb said:

lol played zao allot in old days, didnt touch it for years , hp is crap heal is bad and thats all  , any  new tier 9 ship can beat zao today. any!

 

Ibuki cant. 

[Nibenay78]

Wait wait, since AA is flattened, Zao should be way more fun against CVs than before!

 

Right @Pikkozoikum?

 

or wait, just play smolensk. More fire, less citadels and smoke to somewhst save your sorry behind from CV-abnormal-cell-growth and overmatch... or live by only overpens.

[Kenjiro_]

On 8/1/2021 at 10:02 PM, woppy101 said:

pounded more times than a £2 hoe

 

where can I get them £2 hoes ??

[Aragathor]

1 hour ago, Kenjiro_ said:

 

where can I get them £2 hoes ??

Wish.com

[Pikkozoikum]

4 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

Wait wait, since AA is flattened, Zao should be way more fun against CVs than before!

 

Right @Pikkozoikum?

 

or wait, just play smolensk. More fire, less citadels and smoke to somewhst save your sorry behind from CV-abnormal-cell-growth and overmatch... or live by only overpens.

Since when is AA the major aspect for the perfomance of a cruiser?

I mean, isn't this thread about the overall performance?

 

But aside that, people claimed, that the AA of Zao was good in RTS times *shrug*

[Nibenay78]

10 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Since when is AA the major aspect for the perfomance of a cruiser?

Dunno, wonder where the term AA cruiser comes from. Oh wait wait, that is an old term, not useful anymore.

 

10 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I mean, isn't this thread about the overall performance?

Of which the mentioned spesific performance is relevant, while being powercrept in all other parameters, it also lost the effect of possibly having defAA :D

10 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

But aside that, people claimed, that the AA of Zao was good in RTS times *shrug*

At least speccing for it had some effect I suppose.

[goodnames_gone]

On 8/2/2021 at 12:32 PM, st_dasa said:

P.S. Pls dont tell me how Yoshino is a good ship in the current meta, because she is not. This is coming from the 26th Yoshi player on the server.

so Yoshino not worth to spend the coal to get it ??? zoa get citadel from any angle ...is yoshino like that too ???

[tadaMonika]

42 minutes ago, goodnames_gone said:

so Yoshino not worth to spend the coal to get it ??? zoa get citadel from any angle ...is yoshino like that too ???

Yes. You get more HP of course, but you are pretty much a beefed up Zao with more range and somewhat ok-ish AA.

[tocqueville8]

On 8/2/2021 at 6:17 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

But a Des Moines vs Zao, the DM will always win under "fair" conditions.

 

Zao vs DM

40k HP vs 50k HP

178k DPM vs 274k DPM

 

Not just way less damage, but also less HP. If DM is bow in, she is a small target and still uses 66% dpm. Zao can full broadside, but then easy target, or only use rear, then only 50% dpm

If Des Moines uses only bow, she will still have 180k dpm and will have more hp and be a smaller target.

If Zao is not using full broadside, she will lose 50% of her 178k

I would say, though: many Des Moines are going to be fairly stationary next to an island, while the Zao is usually played more dynamically.

If we include the different ballistics and some competent dodging by the Zao, there comes a range where she might actually out-trade a typical DM.

[Pikkozoikum]

2 hours ago, tocqueville8 said:

I would say, though: many Des Moines are going to be fairly stationary next to an island, while the Zao is usually played more dynamically.

If we include the different ballistics and some competent dodging by the Zao, there comes a range where she might actually out-trade a typical DM.

If it's a 1vs1, there is no need for the Des Moiens to stay stationary and if a Zao outtrades a DM, then it's only because of bad player vs good player. Not because of the ships stats^^

 

[PaxtonQuigly]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

If it's a 1vs1, there is no need for the Des Moiens to stay stationary and if a Zao outtrades a DM, then it's only because of bad player vs good player. Not because of the ships stats^^

 

Des Moines wins against every TX Cruiser 1v1....

In a natural random game, the Zao will most likely be in kiting position on the flank whilst the DM will be bow in next to a cap. It is in this situation that a Zao can definitely outtrade a DM. 

[Pikkozoikum]

15 minutes ago, PaxtonQuigly said:

Des Moines wins against every TX Cruiser 1v1....

In a natural random game, the Zao will most likely be in kiting position on the flank whilst the DM will be bow in next to a cap. It is in this situation that a Zao can definitely outtrade a DM. 

Well, yes DM has a lot dpm, though no idea, if she wins against every T10 ship in a 1vs1. At least I would say the other have more chances than Zao.

 

The thing is, I would expect that IJN ships are glas canons. But they are often just glas ^^

Zao doesn't have the utility like many other cruiser, but also not very high dpm.

[General_Alexus]

What strikes me with Zao is, that litteraly Atago at T8 can be considered better or same in almost every aspect. Same HP, almost same guns, ofc. less range and reload, BETTER ARMOR (41mm plating), worse torps but BETTER Angles (even in T10 Games my Atago sees as as such more Torpedo usage than my Zao), so If WG wants to buff something on Zao, maybe have a look at Atago to look for improofments.

(I personaly would love to see better torpedoangels a little more HP and a tiny bit more DPM to counteract the loss for having to take range on 6th slot. Also, with the aboundanve of 50mm plating the HE, the so called strong point of the IJN CAs, is a bot lackluster. Maybe give it better HE Pen? In fact the guns of Zao are not far different from the 203mm I get at T5 Furutaka. At T5 I can pen BBs with it, at T10 all I have is better than avarage firechance.)

[KillStealBoss]

On 8/1/2021 at 9:50 PM, ColonelPete said:

She performs better than Hindenburg, Moskwa and Yoshino...

So take each one of those into battles few times and then you can say if you had same impact on the games or better. 

 

[KillStealBoss]

On 8/2/2021 at 3:17 PM, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

Zao still has a 30mm midship section, a citadel that cannot be overmatched by TX BBs

*406mm and below. 

A lot of those T10 BBs don't give a crap about the 30mm...

[ColonelPete]

3 hours ago, MacArthur92 said:

So take each one of those into battles few times and then you can say if you had same impact on the games or better. 

 

I think the server  stats decide that better than me.

[ghostbuster_]

On 8/4/2021 at 8:06 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

 

But aside that, people claimed, that the AA of Zao was good in RTS times *shrug*

It was if you had her full AA speced.

[LeaveMeAloneCV_Sub]

I would take better reload and turret traverse for start.

 

It has okay armor but you need be extra careful with huge caliber guns because of that low HP. That 10K+ deficit in HP department is notable.

[Ocsimano18]

5 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

It was if you had her full AA speced.

To be honest, full AA spec cruisers still works now, at least I tried it with Yoshino. The problem is that you don't see so many planes nowadays.