Christ, how bad is the Zao now

[ColonelPete]

Just now, SV_Kompresor said:

 

I know what I wrote BEFORE our argument started.

[SV_Kompresor]

Then you must also know that the only one that mentioned the word ship in your conversation with him was the other guy.

[ColonelPete]

2 minutes ago, SV_Kompresor said:

Then you must also know that the only one that mentioned the word ship in your conversation with him was the other guy.

You used that word...

 

[SV_Kompresor]

Just now, ColonelPete said:

You used that word...

 

 

4 minutes ago, SV_Kompresor said:

your conversation with him

 

[ColonelPete]

4 minutes ago, SV_Kompresor said:

 

 

And I am still talking to you, not to him...

[SV_Kompresor]

2 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

And I am still talking to you, not to him...

You did before

[Itwastuesday]

Honestly she feels more like a gimmick premium ship than a main line tech tree cruiser. The games where things go her way are great, owing to powerful guns and unrivaled torpedo broadside. They're just few and far between... 

 

Was I WG, I'd do the Soviet treatment to IJN cruiser line. Slam a torp reload booster on Zao while you're at it. 

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

3 hours ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

Don't exaggerate things now.

Zao still has a 30mm midship section, a citadel that cannot be overmatched by TX BBs and good concealment. While 17.5 km range is not very comfortable, it is also far from a death sentence.

 

(Not saying that the introduction of more and more guns that overmatch 30mm hasn't hit the Zao hard - but that's not only Zao tbh).

1 hour ago, st_dasa said:

 

1. That mid section absolutely CAN be overmatched from lots of questionable angles by all the 457mm+ caliber BBs that were added in a recent year or so.
2. Concealment is practically negated by the CVs buzzing over your head. And yeah, try to sneak up to the Petro, see how that works, will ya?

3. Range is average at best.

4. You forgot Zao's pitiful HP and bad sustainability.

5. Sh*d dpm.

 

And to conclude - what you fail to include into your ''don't exaggerate'' argument is the fact that Zao has no utility (radar) and no redeeming gimmicks to take a role of an assassin that she is advertised to be (eg. smoke), nor is she reliable at mid range firestarting as there are much better ships that fill up her role with more success.

 

P.S. 30mm deck you say can save you? Sure, the deck can troll... but it's YOU who's getting trolled.

 

I am not interested in strawman discussions.

 

In case you simply did not get the point:

Zao has not changed and the higher number of guns that overmatch 30mm is actually a problem for most curisers with a few exceptions. It does not suddenly make Zao squishy as a Minotaur while the others are still fine.

 

[st_dasa]

2 minutes ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

 

I am not interested in strawman discussions.

 

In case you simply did not get the point:

Zao has not changed and the higher number of guns that overmatch 30mm is actually a problem for most curisers with a few exceptions. It does not suddenly make Zao squishy as a Minotaur while the others are still fine.

 

 

Dude... the only strawman I see here is your initial argument. Yes, the Zao has not changed, and that IS the main problem with her. Des Moines and Minotaur always had and will have utility. You are comparing apples and oranges.

 

[Itwastuesday]

9 minutes ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

 

I am not interested in strawman discussions.

 

In case you simply did not get the point:

Zao has not changed and the higher number of guns that overmatch 30mm is actually a problem for most curisers with a few exceptions. It does not suddenly make Zao squishy as a Minotaur while the others are still fine.

 

Many are more fine, though, not sharing the weird shell trap citadel. 

 

Also what is this garbage right here

 

[ColonelPete]

19 minutes ago, SV_Kompresor said:

You did before

The key word is BEFORE, as I already mentioned....

33 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

I know what I wrote BEFORE our argument started.

Seriously, when you want to engage in wordplay with me, you should level up first.

[SV_Kompresor]

2 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

The key word is BEFORE, as I already mentioned....

Seriously, when you want to engage in wordplay with me, you should level up first.

It's almost as if you don't know what comment my original quote was referring to.

[159Hunter]

[PaxtonQuigly]

Zao is bad! 

 

Meanwhile, hindi & HIV, who bare a few minor tweaks are still the same ships as well as the Zao, who fulfill almost the same role (no ulilty other than long range HE spam), and who suffer from 457mm+ spam just as hard, are fine? 

[Aragathor]

3 hours ago, PaxtonQuigly said:

Zao is bad! 

 

Meanwhile, hindi & HIV, who bare a few minor tweaks are still the same ships as well as the Zao, who fulfill almost the same role (no ulilty other than long range HE spam), and who suffer from 457mm+ spam just as hard, are fine? 

Right, you seem to forget that both ships have a much better base range (17.8km Hindy, 19km Henri) and work well with range builds. Hindy has an extra heal, best hydro in the game, and German improved HE pen, Henri has a speed boost, guns of a higher than regular caliber, and a reload booster. Also both ships have around 12k more HP.

 

Zao has 16.2km range and the only special thing is the torps with long range and bad angles.

 

In the current meta the idea of a stealthy ship is dead, one pass from a CV and the pain train is coming. Plus, to get damage you need to shoot your guns and that negates concealment too.

[WWDragon]

3 hours ago, PaxtonQuigly said:

Meanwhile, hindi & HIV, who bare a few minor tweaks are still the same ships as well as the Zao, who fulfill almost the same role (no ulilty other than long range HE spam), and who suffer from 457mm+ spam just as hard, are fine? 

 

Zao is a natural progression of IJN cruisers, also its a old design back when the game was USN vs IJN, the ships you mentioned come later and have their nation "flavor".

In order to change Zao you would have to change the IJN line, also Hindenburg performs worst that Zao in terms of stats.

 

If you ask me what hurt the IJN line was the end of stealth firing, the gun bloom detection I think penalizes many ships that never really got proper compensation for it, latest nail was the skill rework since it forced cruisers to get too close to able to engage in safety but a lot of ships in this game seem to be set to have a few good points that they pay for with extreme mediocrity or just plain bad on other areas to "balance then" leading to rather unpleasant experiences such as the russian cruisers with good guns but no real armor and horrible handling.

[PaxtonQuigly]

8 hours ago, Aragathor said:

Right, you seem to forget that both ships have a much better base range (17.8km Hindy, 19km Henri) and work well with range builds. Hindy has an extra heal, best hydro in the game, and German improved HE pen, Henri has a speed boost, guns of a higher than regular caliber, and a reload booster. Also both ships have around 12k more HP.

 

Zao has 16.2km range and the only special thing is the torps with long range and bad angles.

 

In the current meta the idea of a stealthy ship is dead, one pass from a CV and the pain train is coming. Plus, to get damage you need to shoot your guns and that negates concealment too.

I didn't forget, as they have always had more range. Wasn't a problem back then and suddenly now their extra range is some huge benefit? 

 

Zao always has been a damage farmer and she still does that exceptionally well. Also I don't think anyone plays Zao with 16km of range... 18.8km is more than fine for a stealthy ship like Zao. 

 

8 hours ago, WWDragon said:

If you ask me what hurt the IJN line was the end of stealth firing

Back then the Zao was utterly broken. Being able to stealth farm bbs.... 

 

8 hours ago, WWDragon said:

Zao is a natural progression of IJN cruisers, also its a old design back when the game was USN vs IJN, the ships you mentioned come later and have their nation "flavor".

Nation flavor, yes. But that flavor hasn't changed since... 2017? So why is now suddenly the Zao very bad, but the HIV and Hinden are fine? 

[st_dasa]

14 hours ago, PaxtonQuigly said:

Zao is bad! 

 

Meanwhile, hindi & HIV, who bare a few minor tweaks are still the same ships as well as the Zao, who fulfill almost the same role (no ulilty other than long range HE spam), and who suffer from 457mm+ spam just as hard, are fine? 

 

Has anyone actually argued that HIV is in a fine state, or are you strawmaning just to say something? I think it's the latter.

 

Both HIV and Hindi are meh in the current meta, albeit better than Zao. Better range, better dpm and such... what was your argument again?

 

[PaxtonQuigly]

25 minutes ago, st_dasa said:

 

Has anyone actually argued that HIV is in a fine state, or are you strawmaning just to say something? I think it's the latter.

 

Both HIV and Hindi are meh in the current meta, albeit better than Zao. Better range, better dpm and such... what was your argument again?

 

Damn son. Did someone piss in your cereal or something? I never said anyone complained about either HIV or hindi. I simply asked why there is so much fuss about Zao suddenly being bad while she remained almost unchanged just as the two other examples... 

She could use better torp angles and turret traverse speed, to make playing her more comfortable and enjoyable. 

[Pikkozoikum]

14 hours ago, PaxtonQuigly said:

Zao is bad! 

 

Meanwhile, hindi & HIV, who bare a few minor tweaks are still the same ships as well as the Zao, who fulfill almost the same role (no ulilty other than long range HE spam), and who suffer from 457mm+ spam just as hard, are fine? 

You can make a thread to that, if you want ;D

 

Though I think Henri is actually better than Zao or Hindenburg, espeically because of the Reload Boost, which can change some situation.

[ghostbuster_]

Zao isnt bad. New additions are just way better than her and this makes her look bad. I would rather slam petro and nevsky with a nerf hammer instead of buffing zao.

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

17 hours ago, st_dasa said:

Dude... the only strawman I see here is your initial argument. Yes, the Zao has not changed, and that IS the main problem with her. Des Moines and Minotaur always had and will have utility. You are comparing apples and oranges.

 

"Dude", you are doing it again - Mino doesn't even have a 30mm mid section. I never compared it to Zao in this regard, read my post again. 

 

And if you want a comparable damage farming cruiser, how about Henri (which is still fine btw, even with the additions of more guns that overmatch 30mm).

 

 

[st_dasa]

18 minutes ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

 

"Dude", you are doing it again - Mino doesn't even have a 30mm mid section. I never compared it to Zao in this regard, read my post again. 

 

And if you want a comparable damage farming cruiser, how about Henri (which is still fine btw, even with the additions of more guns that overmatch 30mm).

 

 

 

LOL. Dude. Gotta say, you are not exactly in touch with the current meta, aren't you now?

 

 

1 hour ago, PaxtonQuigly said:

Damn son. Did someone piss in your cereal or something? I never said anyone complained about either HIV or hindi. I simply asked why there is so much fuss about Zao suddenly being bad while she remained almost unchanged just as the two other examples... 

She could use better torp angles and turret traverse speed, to make playing her more comfortable and enjoyable. 

 

That's your whole argument? Better torp angles? Wow. Ok...

[PaxtonQuigly]

24 minutes ago, st_dasa said:

That's your whole argument? Better torp angles? Wow. Ok...

ThAtS yOuR wHoLe ArGuMeNt

Christ almighty get off your high horse. There is no argument. There is players claiming the Zao is ultra mega bad, and there is me claiming she isnt. 

People are just really bad at playing her. 

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

1 hour ago, st_dasa said:

LOL. Dude. Gotta say, you are not exactly in touch with the current meta, aren't you now?

 

So you are one of those guys who think Henri is a bad ship now?

 

Thanks for making my point. Keep sticking with the "meta"...