Does the Zao need a change?

[The_Chiv]

So recently I watched a video from Sea Lord Mountbatten talking about why the zao is bad and how there were other better cruisers in the game that does what it does.  

 

So I decided you know lets play a few games and find out.

 

(This is not a slam on Sea Lord Mountbatten video, skill, or anything else just my thoughts)

 

So the zao. The first premium ship I ever got was the Atago. I can not express how much I loved this ship as it was responsible for about 50% or more of my cruiser tactics that I still use on many other cruisers. Using these tactics I grinded up to the Zao and my god was it an amazing ship. Slap 2 salvos cause 2 fires slink away into concealment and frustrate my opponent. Then other ships came out and I played them ignoring the Zao who I once thought was a pretty awesome ship. 

 

Zao like All IJN ships has amazing fire starting ability. 22% at max with flags. It also can get 18.8km range meaning it can play very similarly to the Yoshino and just max range camp BBs setting them on fire every 13.7 seconds. What makes the zao amazing however is a combination of several factors. Great accuracy, High Fire chance and a 9.9km concealment. Combine all these together and you have an annoying counter punch against a bb. The idea is simple: Enemy bb fires a salvo, zao shoots a single salvo sets a fire and  then hold fire returning to concealment while dodging any other incoming attacks from other ships. Zao then looks for a new target to set on fire waits for them to shoot and does the same thing, all while repositioning it self and never trying to stay in the same area for too long. Zao also can use terrain to some degree as well so basic cruiser island hugging can apply.

 

 

Now 307k may look really good, however as many will tell you HE damage does not win games, and here is the crux of the matter. While yes Zao can put up some amazing  damage results and start 19 fires all that damage is easily repairable and thus much of its efforts are wasted. If a Zao attempts to be singular focused in burning down a ship it will quickly find itself being the focus of multiple bbs and well Zao handling plus thin armor means this will be a quick trip to the bottom of the sea. If a zao pushes up to be more supportive of a DD its long reload and this armor will mean it will die pretty quickly. Where most cruisers can have a bit more multi role the Zao sadly lacks in this department and will in fact suffer when trying.

 

So now here comes the issue with changing or updating the zao. Zao would need fixes both offensively and defensively, however such changes could shift it easily from being one of the worst to one of the best cruisers in the game. This sadly is because WG tends to be really trash when it comes to cruiser balancing and the margins between the ships is a lot more slimmer then you would think. While I would love to see this ship be impactful again changing to much on it would infact take it from worst to first very easily.  There is another issue I hate to bring up but it must be brought up. SUBS. So as we know sub pings can be erased by a ship when it uses it DCP. This will make ships like the zao even more annoying as a BB will 100% want to get rid of a torp ping and thus the 3 fires the zao will cause him are going to stick a bit and thus the age old argument about HE shells being too strong will come up again. 

 

So Does Zao need an update? Yes. While we can look at the negatives of what an update would mean to the meta and future meta it still does not take away from the fact that the ship is pigeon holed into a rather useless role in the game. LONG RANGE HE Fire starter. It is literally a ship that has little to no impact on the outcome of a match and is pretty much there to Farm damage. Do not get me wrong I love the Zao as I know I can use it to easily do any mission that requires x amount of Fire damage, fires, or damage totals and be done with it rather quickly without having to feel like I am trying to win ww2 all by myself. I would love for Zao to be better but to do some means we would have to sacrifice certain aspects of the ship that make it what it is or make it the best damn cruiser in the game. At best we can hope for it probably some handling changes in regards to turning circle and maybe and possibly a a change to ROF from 13.7 to 13

[SodaBubbles]

46 minutes ago, The_Chiv said:

  There is another issue I hate to bring up but it must be brought up. SUBS. So as we know sub pings can be erased by a ship when it uses it DCP. This will make ships like the zao even more annoying as a BB will 100% want to get rid of a torp ping and thus the 3 fires the zao will cause him are going to stick a bit and thus the age old argument about HE shells being too strong will come up again. 

Thats a really interesting observation. The devs had to reduce flooding damage after the rework for essentially similar reasons. I wonder if DCP will have to be reworked because of the stupidity of having torps that can ping BBs. Unintended consequences....

 

If you look at the data, it's one of the less played T10 cruisers. Of the tech tree ships only the Nevsky is played less. Zao lacks tools like radar. It used to be a relatively better ship, but the new generation of broken BBs with 17"+ guns and the supercruisers make it far less appealing.

[The_Chiv]

4 minutes ago, SodaBubbles said:

Thats a really interesting observation. The devs had to reduce flooding damage after the rework for essentially similar reasons. I wonder if DCP will have to be reworked because of the stupidity of having torps that can ping BBs. Unintended consequences....

 

If you look at the data, it's one of the less played T10 cruisers. Of the tech tree ships only the Nevsky is played less. Zao lacks tools like radar. It used to be a relatively better ship, but the new generation of broken BBs with 17"+ guns and the supercruisers make it far less appealing.

To be honest it does not need radar as it can take a hydro but yes DCP will have to be changed a bit due to subs and if it is not then ships like the Zao, Thunder, Conqueror, Colbert, Smolensk, Worchester, Des moines, Salem, and even the Super cruisers are just gonna have a field day when it comes to FIRE Damage. So the sad reality when it comes to subs is you can either take the torps for 30k damage or take the 6k in HE shells and burn another 40k but you will be able to repair it back but also suffer a concealment debuff while on fire. Kind of sucks. Though there are really only two options I see in this regard. Lessen the cool down of dcp which means you will never get a full burn on a BB again, or create a new counter ping specific function which will make subs weaker. Both are bad options as the concept of homing and pings are bad ideas for this game.

 

[Lootboxer]

Zao needs a few Ks of hp more and maybe 1 or 0.5 s shorter reload. WG It hard with UU nerf.

[Yedwy]

IMHO Zao as she is and as the T10 looks nowadays needs either 10k HP or a super heal instead of a normal one and 10-11s base reload

[Gebe_]

3 hours ago, The_Chiv said:

Zao like All IJN ships has amazing fire starting ability. 22% at max with flags.

Zao is actually pretty bad at starting fires - it has one of the worst FPM among T10 cruisers. Island huggers like Austin, Colbert, Smolensk, Worcester, DM and Salem are the best fire starters. And if we're talking open water then HIV, Hindenburg and Nevski are better at it.

[The_Chiv]

16 minutes ago, Gebe_ said:

Zao is actually pretty bad at starting fires - it has one of the worst FPM among T10 cruisers. Island huggers like Austin, Colbert, Smolensk, Worcester, DM and Salem are the best fire starters. And if we're talking open water then HIV, Hindenburg and Nevski are better at it.

So couple of thoughts here.

What is FPM? If you  mean fire per minute, no metric for how many fires in a minute you can start exist nor is tracked, at least not that I have seen.

 

Light cruiser are indeed better fires starters due to 2 factors. 1 rate of reload, and amount of guns they can fire on target. More hits equals more chance at fire and faster reloads means more opportunities. When Smolensk could reach out to 18km it was painful to say the least. In the new Commander rework most are relegated to 16km. Compared to the zao who can reach 18.8km Yes ships like the Smolensk will fire 3 salvos to one of the zao.  Zao is stealthier then the smolensk and can actually do damage against 32mm of deck and hull meaning it can actually do damage to the bow and stern of bbs where the Smolensk is relegated to superstructure if it wants to do damage which tends to get saturated pretty quickly and thus has a diminished return over time.

 

 

[Prophecy82]

Zaos guns are still amazing and sometimes the "sneak-up and nuke with AP" tactics still work. 

But If you want an HE-Spammer I would say that Yoshino is still superior, since so many battles are fought at extreme ranges. 

 

So as stupid as it may sound, her main problem is the range as it doesnt fit in todays meta anymore. All other shorter ranged cruisers have either more utility or a higher RoF or both (hello Dessi). 

 

So, to get her back in the game give her: 

a) better Range: 17km base

b) higher RoF: 10 sec reload base

c) more HP: at least 50k

 

Pick 2 from the above.

 

And for the love of God give her some AA. 

[RenamedUser_92906789]

I only wish its legendary module would be reverted to original state.

 

[Aragathor]

Here's a WG claim for all you peeps, from the recent Q&L, that is Questions and Lies:

 

Spoiler

 

Courtesy of Flamu

 

Here are the player numbers for the last two months for silver heavy cruisers:

 

Zao - 13069

Hindenburg - 20877

Henri IV - 7924

Goliath - 6121

Alexander Nevsky - 8694 (London Naval Treaty rules)

Petropavlovsk - 14255

Des Moines  - 15858

 

Zao is 4th out of 7, when it comes to popularity. WG will not touch her as WG determined that numbers of battles played is a benchmark of performance. This just proves that WG devs are lazy and don't want to work on their game, because they sure as hell aren't balancing anything else.

 

PS: The point of UUs now is to be bad, you have to deal with it. 19200 RP worth of trash.

[Nauseica]

Another link from Flamu twitter

Spoiler

 

Zao is the 1st and only silver T10 i have and played it 81 battles with decent results.

Withe the old legendary upgrade was fun and had a different role i could play close to DD's with the low concealment and blap enemy dd's and with the rudder i could avoid torps or incoming shells easy +with some luck and go stealth.

 

Now you cant cause someone genius decide to remove that rudder buff and just be a logn fire spam :(

 

Zao suffers with bad rear torp angles - way worst than all the line
Firing angles are a bit bad - with a little better angles i would be happy
i dont mind the low health its workable
 

Also dont forget that lately games last like 7-10min and are bad - Zao as firestarter needs time to do damage and influence the battle except if you are some yolo muppet and win 1 out of 20 games with 200k torp dmg and say silly thing after it.

 

I dont want radar on Zao or 9sec firing guns.
better rudder liek the old Legendary had - better torp angles on the back and maybe better gun angles for kiting

 

But yeah Zao is a jpn ship just like german ships ........

[bEtHeNs]

It has ten torps per side, in many battles they have been the cause of most  of the damage. It plays well this way against enemy ships pushing, but you have to refrain firing your guns, just like a big dd, and then end killing the enemies with the fires after repair of the floods. But it is true it has been left behind by the newest cruiser artillery in some cases, not only the HE focused but the Stalingrad accuracy, range and damage for example.

[bEtHeNs]

1 hora antes, nambr9 dijo:

I only wish its legendary module would be reverted to original state.

 

Of course this.

[The_Chiv]

1 hour ago, Prophecy82 said:

Zaos guns are still amazing and sometimes the "sneak-up and nuke with AP" tactics still work. 

But If you want an HE-Spammer I would say that Yoshino is still superior, since so many battles are fought at extreme ranges. 

 

So as stupid as it may sound, her main problem is the range as it doesnt fit in todays meta anymore. All other shorter ranged cruisers have either more utility or a higher RoF or both (hello Dessi). 

 

So, to get her back in the game give her: 

a) better Range: 17km base

b) higher RoF: 10 sec reload base

c) more HP: at least 50k

 

Pick 2 from the above.

 

And for the love of God give her some AA. 

So more health is a valid option, not sure about range or ROF. So if you give 17km to a Zao then they will all take the reload which will turn 13.7 to 12. If you give 10 seconds then that turns to 8.8 second reloads. combining both range and rof would make it broken AF. However 12 second reload via mod with 17km range plus more health could be the ticket.

 

1 hour ago, Nauseica said:

Another link from Flamu twitter

  Hide contents

 

Zao is the 1st and only silver T10 i have and played it 81 battles with decent results.

Withe the old legendary upgrade was fun and had a different role i could play close to DD's with the low concealment and blap enemy dd's and with the rudder i could avoid torps or incoming shells easy +with some luck and go stealth.

 

Now you cant cause someone genius decide to remove that rudder buff and just be a logn fire spam :(

 

Zao suffers with bad rear torp angles - way worst than all the line
Firing angles are a bit bad - with a little better angles i would be happy
i dont mind the low health its workable
 

Also dont forget that lately games last like 7-10min and are bad - Zao as firestarter needs time to do damage and influence the battle except if you are some yolo muppet and win 1 out of 20 games with 200k torp dmg and say silly thing after it.

 

I dont want radar on Zao or 9sec firing guns.
better rudder liek the old Legendary had - better torp angles on the back and maybe better gun angles for kiting

 

But yeah Zao is a jpn ship just like german ships ........

I find 0 fault in your logic.

 

[lameoll]

it needs health thats a sure thing.

 

Maybe a bit more reload.

 

Other then that zao is ok 

[Prophecy82]

8 minutes ago, The_Chiv said:

2 hours ago, Prophecy82 said:

 

So more health is a valid option, not sure about range or ROF. So if you give 17km to a Zao then they will all take the reload which will turn 13.7 to 12. If you give 10 seconds then that turns to 8.8 second reloads. combining both range and rof would make it broken AF. However 12 second reload via mod with 17km range plus more health could be the ticket.

 

On the other hand you get even better stats RoF/Range-wise with a lighthouse Hindenburg. 

Sure, not such an high Alpha and fire chance but EZ-Pen. 

[The_Chiv]

1 minute ago, Prophecy82 said:

 

On the other hand you get even better stats RoF/Range-wise with a lighthous Hindenburg. 

Sure, not such an high Alpha but EZ-Pen. 

True but you also get that german turtle back that bounce some BB shells or take little damage. Hindy also does less per shell then the Zao like 900 less. That is literally 10,800 less per salvo. with 8% less fire.

[Prophecy82]

3 minutes ago, The_Chiv said:

That is literally 10,800 less per salvo. with 8% less fire.

 

True, but its at least partially compensated by having quater pen rule on hinden. 

[Datz68]

More range with unique upgrade will be fine 

[The_Chiv]

 

26 minutes ago, Prophecy82 said:

 

True, but its at least partially compensated by having quater pen rule on hinden. 

Which gives it an advantage when aiming for the upper mid section of a ship, so Puerto Rico, Montana, Vermont, Moskva, Petro, Stalin, GK, goliath, and the CC. Everything else is either no advantage or equal advantage in regards to t10 ships. 

[Ze_Reckless]

Zao was fine when Yamato was the only BB that could overmatch her 30 mm armour. Nowadays everyone and their mothers have 430+mm guns.

 

I don't see them give her back the troll armour as most potatoes don't know how to use it anyway.

 

Zao can still be played as the stealthy assassin but newer ships are better at that role. Play Zao for fun, play Venecia/Petro/Nevsky/Goliath for results.

[Prophecy82]

1 hour ago, The_Chiv said:

 

Which gives it an advantage when aiming for the upper mid section of a ship, so Puerto Rico, Montana, Vermont, Moskva, Petro, Stalin, GK, goliath, and the CC. Everything else is either no advantage or equal advantage in regards to t10 ships. 

Since I hate Kremlins with a passion, I use IFHE on my Hinden so I can Pen his deck everywhere. But thats just my personal tick, not smth I would recommend. 

[Itwastuesday]

Well, Zao is just surpassed by the Venezia in every way. Venezia has even better DD blapping capabilities, it's tougher, more maneuverable, with less glacial turrets, better torp angles, with an exhaust smoke, more speed... If at least Zao was actually nimble maybe there was some point to her.

[MrWastee]

@SV_Kompresor, i present u: ur thread!

[SV_Kompresor]

54 minutes ago, MrWastee said:

@SV_Kompresor, i present u: ur thread!

Don't even start. With such profound wg wisdom as:

 

tl-dr: The ship is balanced because it's old. Sometimes I wonder if wg hired their developers according to who was cheapest.