ST 0.10.7, changes to submarines and ASW upgrades and armament (DB 181)

[Pikkozoikum]

39 minutes ago, lovelacebeer said:

If a sub is chasing a sub then they are working at roughly the same speed and plenty of ships have to deal with that,

Well, I said it earlier, the speed is "slow". Is a BB chasing another BB with 15 knots? Is the BB losing his "resoruce"?

 

Imagine a DD chases another DD and locks his speed at 15 knots, but also drains his smoke. The comparison "plenty of ships have to deal with that" doesn't work, that are completly different dimensions and also different mechanics (dive capacity)

 

Submarine moves with 15 knots - Enemy submarines follows with 15 knots

Submarines lose dive capacity and also they can get dropped by ASW

 

Surface ships moves with 30-40 knots - enemy surface ship can follow with 30-40 knots

Surface ship can get shot by enemies, but has speed and more hp/armor etc

 

It's just completly different

 

When I get spotted in any surface ship, I'm mostly able to turn around and move away. A submarine will be perma spotted by the enemy submarine and with slow speed there is no real escape, also there is no "angleing" because there are only bombs and torpedos

 

 

46 minutes ago, lovelacebeer said:

The fact that also torps are getting faster this might even be intentional that subs are not meant to really counter each other directly, I'm not so certain that's the reason but it would at least be realistic, currently the only instance of a submerged sub being sunk by another was when HMS Venturer sank U-864. 

I would prefer, if submarines don't interfer each other too much.

 

47 minutes ago, lovelacebeer said:

On this we have to utterly disagree situation awareness isn't selective, its not exclusive to fast ships or long range ones. You either are paying attention or your not. 

Eh no. A bb needs way less awareness, than a DD. Because the BB sits behind and just have to wait for the spot... but who has to spot and go for the risk? The DD has nobody, who spots the enemy for him. He is the ship in the fronline and goes the risk.

 

Same with submarines. You can have awareness like a robot, that doesn't matter, if the enemy submarine never gets spotted until it runs into your proximity range. How do you pay attention on something, that you can't see, until it's too late? ^^

 

Just take the example of Shimakaze torpedos 20km, and YY deep water torpedos. The awareness makes a huge difference. If you have very good awareness, doesn't matter, if the YY have that stealth level and almost instantly hit. Shima torpedos don't need that much awareness and you still can dodge them.

 

52 minutes ago, lovelacebeer said:

True but Subs are meant to be a griefing class from the very first test that's been painfully obvious that was WGs design for them both to fellow subs and to surface ships. 

I disagree, that submarines are a griefing class by default. No class or ship is that. It depends more, what you are doing. And if one submarine chases another and both are just depleting pointlessly their DivCap, that feels like griefing.

A DD is also not a griefing ship by default, but you can group in a Division and sit around the enemy CV without killing him, just destroying his planes and keep him has hostage. That is also a griefing action.

 

I also meant, that is a "griefing like feeling", not that it is actual griefing. It just feels like. As I said, I think submarines shouldn't counter each other like that. Other ships should counter submarine or at least fight them somewhat effective

[lovelacebeer]

8 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Well, I said it earlier, the speed is "slow". Is a BB chasing another BB with 15 knots? Is the BB losing his "resoruce"?

 

Imagine a DD chases another DD and locks his speed at 15 knots, but also drains his smoke. The comparison "plenty of ships have to deal with that" doesn't work, that are completly different dimensions and also different mechanics (dive capacity)

 

Submarine moves with 15 knots - Enemy submarines follows with 15 knots

Submarines lose dive capacity and also they can get dropped by ASW

 

Surface ships moves with 30-40 knots - enemy surface ship can follow with 30-40 knots

Surface ship can get shot by enemies, but has speed and more hp/armor etc

 

It's just completly different

 

When I get spotted in any surface ship, I'm mostly able to turn around and move away. A submarine will be perma spotted by the enemy submarine and with slow speed there is no real escape, also there is no "angleing" because there are only bombs and torpedos

 

 

I would prefer, if submarines don't interfer each other too much.

 

Eh no. A bb needs way less awareness, than a DD. Because the BB sits behind and just have to wait for the spot... but who has to spot and go for the risk? The DD has nobody, who spots the enemy for him. He is the ship in the fronline and goes the risk.

 

Same with submarines. You can have awareness like a robot, that doesn't matter, if the enemy submarine never gets spotted until it runs into your proximity range. How do you pay attention on something, that you can't see, until it's too late? ^^

 

Just take the example of Shimakaze torpedos 20km, and YY deep water torpedos. The awareness makes a huge difference. If you have very good awareness, doesn't matter, if the YY have that stealth level and almost instantly hit. Shima torpedos don't need that much awareness and you still can dodge them.

 

I disagree, that submarines are a griefing class by default. No class or ship is that. It depends more, what you are doing. And if one submarine chases another and both are just depleting pointlessly their DivCap, that feels like griefing.

A DD is also not a griefing ship by default, but you can group in a Division and sit around the enemy CV without killing him, just destroying his planes and keep him has hostage. That is also a griefing action.

 

I also meant, that is a "griefing like feeling", not that it is actual griefing. It just feels like. As I said, I think submarines shouldn't counter each other like that. Other ships should counter submarine or at least fight them somewhat effective

 

Its not that difficult if you do not yolo rush forward blindly, i really cannot fathom why you seem to want subs to be immune from the consequences of over extending. 

 

Anyway its quite obvious we are incapable of agreeing on this so lets leave this futile discussion as it stands. 

[Pikkozoikum]

2 minutes ago, lovelacebeer said:

 

Its not that difficult if you do not yolo rush forward blindly, i really cannot fathom why you seem to want subs to be immune from the consequences of over extending. 

 

Anyway its quite obvious we are incapable of agreeing on this so lets leave this futile discussion as it stands. 

"not that difficult". That's what you can say to everything...

 

 

 

I wasn't pushing, I'm reversing at the beginning. I'm in a defensive position, not in an aggressive. But one hydro of the enemy submarine (which pushed aggressively) highlighted me. And than an aggressive DD moved toward me and killed me.

Has nothing to do with awareness, because I can't react with 15 knots to that. Everything would be fine, if enemy subs wouldn't counter submarines so hard

 

[lovelacebeer]

8 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

"not that difficult". That's what you can say to everything...

 

 

 

I wasn't pushing, I'm reversing at the beginning. I'm in a defensive position, not in an aggressive. But one hydro of the enemy submarine (which pushed aggressively) highlighted me. And than an aggressive DD moved toward me and killed me.

Has nothing to do with awareness, because I can't react with 15 knots to that. Everything would be fine, if enemy subs wouldn't counter submarines so hard

 

 

 

Look at the position of your team in relation to yourself, its blindly obvious you are in a position where you have isolated yourself behind hard cover from your team and therefore suffered the consequences of your actions. 

[Pikkozoikum]

2 minutes ago, lovelacebeer said:

 

 

Look at the position of your team in relation to yourself, its blindly obvious you are in a position where you have isolated yourself behind hard cover from your team and therefore suffered the consequences of your actions. 

Eh no my position is good there, but not if enemy submarines go aggressive. ALso that is a common defensive spot xD

 

But also it makes no sense, what you are saying, because a submarine is slow, in case you didn't notice. I was max range torping ,but the DD and the submarine were not spotted, so as I said, no flexibility, as soon they spot me.

 

But also "look where you team is", because I have a 40 knot dd and just adjust my self quickly? Where should I be else? There is no spot, Shall I push through? GUess what, that I'm in an extremly aggressive spot, and I would suffer maybe from the exact same fate... It has nothing to do with positioning, but with the speed + permaspotting......

[lovelacebeer]

8 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Eh no my position is good there, but not if enemy submarines go aggressive. ALso that is a common defensive spot xD

 

But also it makes no sense, what you are saying, because a submarine is slow, in case you didn't notice. I was max range torping ,but the DD and the submarine were not spotted, so as I said, no flexibility, as soon they spot me.

 

But also "look where you team is", because I have a 40 knot dd and just adjust my self quickly? Where should I be else? There is no spot, Shall I push through? GUess what, that I'm in an extremly aggressive spot, and I would suffer maybe from the exact same fate... It has nothing to do with positioning, but with the speed + permaspotting......

 

If your really that incapable of seeing what you did wrong there then clearly Submarines will not suit you, look where your battleships and cruisers are not every ship is a 40 knot DD so constantly using that excuse is getting tiresome as well as disingenuous. You miss positioned and suffered the consequence of your error its that simple. 

 

Anyway its evident your not willing to see that so I will leave the conversation there, you may continue to enjoy your self delusions. 

[Pikkozoikum]

7 minutes ago, lovelacebeer said:

 

If your really that incapable of see what you did wrong there then clearly Submarines will not suit you, look where your battleships and cruisers are not every ship is a 40 knot DD so constantly using that excuse is getting tiresome as well as disingenuous. You miss positioned and suffered the consequence of your error its that simple. 

 

Anyway its evident your not willing to see that so I will leave the conversation there, you may continue to enjoy your self delusions. 

I think rather, that you don't understand the "misposition thing". Otherwise, if you really think, that this is misspositioning, then it's always mispositioning, as you you go into a 12km radius to an enemy....

I can just repeat: Submarines are slow and have short range, that makes them inflexible. DDs can go such risks, because of smoke and speed.

There was no intel about their DD and no intel about their submarine. And you will never get this intel, unless a submarine will accidently run into them

And btw, the ship detection is lowered, when a submarine is below surface.

 

Oh and btw, I was reversing all the time, the DD never new, that I'm there and the DD was very fast away. The position of the DD resulted into the hydro of the enemy submarine. so you might get a wrong impression of the scenario

 

to make it even more clear the issue: Submarines have stealth-underwater-radar

[arczer25]

On 7/30/2021 at 10:26 AM, Pikkozoikum said:

I would actually do that the other way around, because the ping mechanic has the disdavantage to be seen on short range (though only 4km currently.) But also it alerts the enemy.

I think the hard hitting should be on short range, but they should be slow. So a submarine has not just to be in the right position and very close, but also the torps must reach the target

 

Though your idea works of course, as well ^^

well point is to create dynamic akin to AP and HE between these two, instead of just this one having more damage, but being worse at everything else.
 

[Pikkozoikum]

9 minutes ago, arczer25 said:

well point is to create dynamic akin to AP and HE between these two, instead of just this one having more damage, but being worse at everything else.
 

It's not jsut more damage, it's also the possibilty to launch them from very close at periscope depth without being spotted. (around 2.5km)

That's actually how I would expect SS gameplay

[FellRaven]

OK just come off the test server after exclusively playing submarines and I don't know if you will be asking for feedback again but a couple of observations:

 

• The end game with Submarines is really boring
• Submarines vs Submarines is really boring. I'd rather be sunk than spend eternity turning, diving, surfacing and firing torpedoes that will inevitably miss
• This idea of limiting DDs and Sub numbers won't work 3 Subs and 1 DD would just mean no spotting
• CV immunity to Pings 
• Why do submarine torpedoes miss Subs at Periscope depth while other Torpedoes do not?

You've had these feedback before but nothing has changed

[arczer25]

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It's not jsut more damage, it's also the possibilty to launch them from very close at periscope depth without being spotted. (around 2.5km)

That's actually how I would expect SS gameplay

well so you can current torps, no one forces you to ping.

still you would need 2 pings for the "citadel hits".

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, arczer25 said:

well so you can current torps, no one forces you to ping.

still you would need 2 pings for the "citadel hits".

Eh, that's the point? Having high damage torps, non-guided torpedos, that are useable on short range. Those don't need the ping, so they are good for close range... xD

The current torps need the ping for doing good dmg, otherwise they do very little dmg. So they are not optimal used on close range... why would I use them then on close range?
That makes no sense ^^

[Pikkozoikum]

3 hours ago, FellRaven said:

This idea of limiting DDs and Sub numbers won't work 3 Subs and 1 DD would just mean no spotting

Subs can spot, and when there is no DD around, it'S even more likely, they do. Also what happens in a match with only 1 DD and no subs? No spotting at all ^^

[arczer25]

50 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Eh, that's the point? Having high damage torps, non-guided torpedos, that are useable on short range. Those don't need the ping, so they are good for close range... xD

The current torps need the ping for doing good dmg, otherwise they do very little dmg. So they are not optimal used on close range... why would I use them then on close range?
That makes no sense ^^

you still can do good damage (enough for DD or damaged cruiser..) without ping and not like 4km ping detection is anything.
not like below 4km anyone will give you time to reload your torpedo tubes to "close range"..