Jingles on the state of Operations in WoWs

[suppenkaschperl]

Operations would be more popular if the rewards would be better.

But they even nerfed the base exp for operation narai.

 

Dynamo&Cherry blossom were pretty good for farming free exp. 2.5 - 3k base exp wasnt that difficult to get and

if they would still exist alot of players would play it to farm free exp.

 

But theres no money to get from operations and as I said rewards were too good so  two good reason for WG to dont bring old ones back or new ones in.

Saying that they were not popular is just an excuse for the reasons you see above.

[lilgoth]

WarGaming realised LONG ago that PVP content generates more Profit than PVE content, even before you take into account that PVE content is more expensive to produce in the first place

the moment they they had that realisation, PVE's long term future simply stopped existing to them.  occasionally they will throw the PVE crowd a bone in an attempt to stop all of them simply walking away

but ultimately WG simply doesnt want you to play PVE, because WG simply dont care about your enjoyment, your entertainment, all they care about is the most efficient way to hump cash out of your wallet. 

i used to LOVE pve, being a disabled gamer i find it more enjoyable, and dramatically less toxic than Randoms, the bots have never spewed hate messages at me during or after battles for instance. i do wish PVE was more of a challenge than a 2 min yolo fest, but again, that would involve someone at WG putting in a few moments of effort into a gamemode WG themselves dont believe in and no longer wish to support with anything more than token gestures once in a blue moon.  

[Admiral_H_Nelson]

7 hours ago, Aragathor said:

Yes, you may safely assume WG is lying about the lack of interest, as they have never provided any numbers to back up that claim.

Wargaming is living proof of Hitchens's razor.

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."

 

On  a personal note, I would love to dismiss WG entirely....with a bloody great axe.

[Hugh_Ruka]

3 hours ago, suppenkaschperl said:

Operations would be more popular if the rewards would be better.

But they even nerfed the base exp for operation narai.

 

Dynamo&Cherry blossom were pretty good for farming free exp. 2.5 - 3k base exp wasnt that difficult to get and

if they would still exist alot of players would play it to farm free exp.

 

But theres no money to get from operations and as I said rewards were too good so  two good reason for WG to dont bring old ones back or new ones in.

Saying that they were not popular is just an excuse for the reasons you see above.

You can do that in modern Ranked even better ...

[invicta2012]

20 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

You can do that in modern Ranked even better ...

That involves playing Ranked, though. And Ranked is the most stressful game mode of the lot, so not really comparable. 

[BlackYeti]

16 hours ago, quickr said:

"It doesn't bring enough money in, no need to further develop it" - WG

Hey WG, add decent tier 8/9/10 ops and watch the money flow (from premium ship sales and XP conversions). Keep decent XP earnings, and economy slightly worse than randoms

[SodaBubbles]

2 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:

Hey WG, add decent tier 8/9/10 ops and watch the money flow (from premium ship sales and XP conversions). Keep decent XP earnings, and economy slightly worse than randoms

Yep. I used to run the Hoperations group on NA back in the old days when we played every day, a group of about 30-40 in the core, and a few hundred drifting in and out. On weekends we could easily have three 7 player divs running. Before they nerfed Narai, we were running it with just four high DPM ships and raking in the cash. On the old Dunkirk with 200% bonuses and camos you could make 70,000 FXP in a single run.

Everything WG said was a lie. Lots of people played operations, and quite regularly. I know, I ran a Discord server full of them. Operations players don't buy ships? I bought several ships, including Flint and Abruzzi, just to run in Narai.

The problem was that operations were too much fun. Too many people (meaning, more than zero) were playing them, sucking players from Randoms. So rather than put in the effort to make the Randoms experience better, they simply shut off operations.

[Procrastes]

On 7/26/2021 at 3:19 PM, The_Chiv said:

Also WG argument does not hold water as if you look at the numbers for CV's you would see that most are not a fan of them And yet CV's are still getting a ton of new content.

My guess is that Wargaming has already sunk so much money in the CV rework that they must keep justifying its continued existence to themselves. Perhaps more importantly, the prestige of the people at the top who made the decision to push through will not let them admit that they were wrong and that the CV is a failed class. In order to cover this up, Wargaming are artificially boosting CV player numbers by a policy of deliberately making them unbalanced and overpowered. This policy will not change unless and until the company starts losing real money over it.

 

With the incoming submarine menace well underway, things are not looking to get better. CV:s are almost as boring to play as they are to play against. Submarines, being yet another class to operate outside of the boundaries of ordinary surface action, will hardly be any different in this regard. World of Warships will no longer be a game of mainly surface ship-to-ship combat. Which is too bad, since Wargaming could still turn this thing around if only they would choose to do it.

 

For the longest time, I tried to give Wargaming the benefit of the doubt when it came to their sometimes dubious design choices. Tasked as they are with providing an ongoing and inspiring game experience, it is only natural that they will be searching for ways to continually introduce new content. With this in mind, it is hard to see how they could not at some point be looking at carriers and submarines. But as things are now, they have long moved past the point where they could be excused for thinking that their choices with regard to these ship classes are in line with the wishes of the players. I would not presume to speak for others, but in view of the content of this forum and relevant youtube videos over the past two years I think it can be fairly said that CV:s are outright loathed by a clear majority of the player base; a large portion of which are equally disenchanted by the prospect of the incoming submarines. Wargaming obviously knows this, and they equally obviously do not care. They clearly believe they will still bring in the money. Fortunately, this last part is not something that is decided solely by the top people at Wargaming: We, the players, also have a say in the matter.

[NobleRipper]

I just want to address WG's point that a lot of people have mentioned, regarding Ops not bringing in much/enough money: it seems to me to be of exactly as much (or rather, little) weight as the one about not much/enough players.

 

For one thing, again we have no figures to back it up (my thanks to @Admiral_H_Nelson for reminding us of Hitchens' Razor!); for another, if WG wanted to make more money on Ops they could do so with some effort put in (have a specific weekly 'Operations Bundle' in the Armoury with some signals, camo and a bit of premium time; have a 'Grand Operations Bundle' with more of the above and a different premium ship each week; that sort of thing), and we're just not seeing it, which seems to suggest that they don't really take the financial aspect of Ops seriously enough to put any effort behind it.

 

What a couple of other people have pointed out, however, is that Ops requires more resource investment by WG to create new content/maintain, and I'd also suggest that the skills required to do so are rather different to their usual (ship modelling/artwork, occasional mapmaking, balans-by-spreadshiet) which could mean they just don't have people with those skills available and getting some in would be an extra investment.

 

Which is all to say, I think that again the idea of 'a small amount' of income from Ops is not the same as 'not enough' income from Ops as far as WG are concerned; they seem to want to stick with their cheap, minimum-necessary-effort PvP modes where the players are bringing the content themselves rather than try the more challenging task of making PvE more economically viable.

[Onsterfelijke]

On 7/26/2021 at 2:10 PM, WWDragon said:

I say this is a mix of two things.

 

Operations require a lot more work that just make a new map and how many maps we got recently? So making new Operations would mean getting people away from the next gimmick line and be far more work intensive.

 

WG seems to a culture against PvE content, there is the weird idea that PvE will take players away from PvP so development of PvE content would destroy the PvP element because we all know much effort they put into that one.

 

They dont drop Operations entirely because that would mean a loss of about 20% of the players because even PvP players grind operations as there are less losses chances, Co-Op is pretty much used by everyone to get Directives done due to their obscene requirements so they cannot get rid of that one and maintain the casual playerbase that would mean even a much, much larger drop that removing Operations.

 

I think WG have to understand one thing, in order for the game growth they have to lure PvE players because they pretty much peaked with PvP only players, they just dont do it because of the costs of developing Operations is much larger that just making new ship lines, likely they dont even have the staff considering we dont have new maps and the underwater maps are entirely meh.

Or they are making a new version modern WoWs which i saw some video's off......

 

But they should make more operation and atleast fix those already made...

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

On 7/26/2021 at 1:46 PM, NobleSauvage said:

(Because it seems like a while since we had a thread to properly complain about how Ops is being abused by WG)

 

 

One extra point I'd add: WG's argument is that Ops doesn't get enough interest to justify development; if I recall correctly (admittedly no great guarantee), support for Apple OS and Linux versions of the game were dropped completely because they were in the same situation; Ops hasn't been dropped completely, despite the benefit this would presumably have in helping to control ever-increasing patch sizes; presumably that must be because it has a number of players that WG doesn't want to casually discard; erego, 'not enough interest to justify development' may mean a different thing to WG than 'only a small number of people are playing'.

 

Also, apparently the Dutch T6 kinda sucks in Ops, which is also disappointing.

 

Anyone care to offer any thoughts on the subject?

 

Just 2 names:

 

"Operation Cherry Blossom"

"Operation Dunkirk"

 

18+ months have passed by... 

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[Onsterfelijke]

On 7/26/2021 at 1:46 PM, NobleSauvage said:

 

Also, apparently the Dutch T6 kinda sucks in Ops, which is also disappointing.

 

Anyone care to offer any thoughts on the subject?

I played the Kijkduin and that was in Killerwhale a good ship it's guns citadel easy, I shall try the Eendracht in Narai but i think it's even beter.

[Enkidu136]

entertained players = play to progress

 

bored players = pay to progress

 

WG already told us many times that their business model is pay to progress. So why should they provide entertaining content?

 

We already have naval training center, c'mon. You can ask for some phun stuphz to add, after you've completed the training center

[hgbn_dk]

Think 90% of my games the last year or two have been operations... Repetitive yes but more or less a non toxic chat and I can use all my T-VI and VII without facing double CV.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

Ah... earlier today I watched a whole episode of Jingles about some Flying purple warship eater.

 

'Except that they aren't there... they used to be...''

 

I have to agree (and you don't even have to twist my arm for it). Some ops are more enjoyable than others, and several of the more enjoyable ones.... aren't there... any more.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

On 7/26/2021 at 4:19 PM, The_Chiv said:

I loved playing operations, but after getting 5 stars in all of them I stopped playing them unless some one asked me to help in one. I like a challenge and once I complete a challenge I move to the next one. Well WG never added new ones. So I waited expecting new ones to come  into the game, yet nothing materialized. 

 

Also WG argument does not hold water as if you look at the numbers for CV's you would see that most are not a fan of them And yet CV's are still getting a ton of new content.

 

Sometimes the best challenge comes in the shape of your team mates.

[hgbn_dk]

To bad stats are not available in ops. I would sure like to see my own

[HansRoaming]

I wonder why there isn't an Operation for tier 5 ships as what is the point of playing them and buying premiums for just coop and random, should be easier at tier 5 as no carriers to worry about.

 

I like ops and coop as right now an isolating as two of my family have covid and they provide brief distractions and escapism. 

[NobleRipper]

21 minutes ago, HansRoaming said:

I wonder why there isn't an Operation for tier 5 ships as what is the point of playing them and buying premiums for just coop and random, should be easier at tier 5 as no carriers to worry about.

 

I like ops and coop as right now an isolating as two of my family have covid and they provide brief distractions and escapism. 

(Thumbs up for the T5 Ops suggestion by the way, not the COVID; hope your family folks get well soon!)

 

I'd love to see a T5 Op. too, some of my favourite ships are at that tier and it would be great to take some of them out for one (or ideally more!). I can only imagine that WG's inability to make T8 and above Ops (I seem to recall from somewhere that they said they just didn't know how to balance them) applies at least a little to the lower tiers as well: cruisers especially at T5 can be reeeeally fragile, and battleships can be either Kongo or really slow, so I can see how making an Op. with an intensity and pace that suits as many ships as possible would be even harder at T5 than some others.

[HansRoaming]

3 minutes ago, NobleSauvage said:

(Thumbs up for the T5 Ops suggestion by the way, not the COVID; hope your family folks get well soon!)

 

I'd love to see a T5 Op. too, some of my favourite ships are at that tier and it would be great to take some of them out for one (or ideally more!). I can only imagine that WG's inability to make T8 and above Ops (I seem to recall from somewhere that they said they just didn't know how to balance them) applies at least a little to the lower tiers as well: cruisers especially at T5 can be reeeeally fragile, and battleships can be either Kongo or really slow, so I can see how making an Op. with an intensity and pace that suits as many ships as possible would be even harder at T5 than some others.

Thanks for the Covid comments an we seem to be ok so far, was really using it to highlight that ops and coop can be a way to relax vs compete in pvp.

 

I see what you mean but maybe some of the smaller maps with forts could be good protecting a landing, maybe on Big Race for example.

 

I'm sure one person could work on ops and ai for coop to make it better out of their whole team.

[SodaBubbles]

11 hours ago, NobleSauvage said:

I just want to address WG's point that a lot of people have mentioned, regarding Ops not bringing in much/enough money: it seems to me to be of exactly as much (or rather, little) weight as the one about not much/enough players.

 

For one thing, again we have no figures to back it up (my thanks to @Admiral_H_Nelson for reminding us of Hitchens' Razor!); for another, if WG wanted to make more money on Ops they could do so with some effort put in (have a specific weekly 'Operations Bundle' in the Armoury with some signals, camo and a bit of premium time; have a 'Grand Operations Bundle' with more of the above and a different premium ship each week; that sort of thing), and we're just not seeing it, which seems to suggest that they don't really take the financial aspect of Ops seriously enough to put any effort behind it.

That is an excellent point. 

[DeviousDave02]

24 minutes ago, HansRoaming said:

I wonder why there isn't an Operation for tier 5 ships as what is the point of playing them and buying premiums for just coop and random, should be easier at tier 5 as no carriers to worry about.

 

I like ops and coop as right now an isolating as two of my family have covid and they provide brief distractions and escapism. 

 

Because WarGaming hates Ops.

 

Despite the way a bit of thought could make them highly profitable to them. For example:

 

-Take the current Ops.

-Make a new game mode (Hard mode Ops)

-Increase the Tier to TVIII

-Up the AI bot ship count and increase their Tiers to tiers VII through X (aka. make it very, VERY hard)

-Throw in those new Uber BB's

 

Now here's the important part.

-Increase the rewards from playing this mode to tempt players in (XP, Creds, renewing rewards for stars earned etc.) .

- Add a new consumable to the game called "Reinforcement tokens" using this consumable when sunk in a Hard mode Op will allow you to respawn as part of a reinforcement wave.

- Add a "Fleet Reinforcement token" that allows not only you but also all dead allies to come back.

-Give 3 - 5 free "Reinforcement tokens" per Ops cycle (weekly?) 

-Make the Tokens available for purchase from the shop for doubloons (or even in match if you run out and have the doubloons to spare)

 

Evil money making gameplay loop.

The rewards pull players in.

The difficulty of the Ops kills them/Kills team mates and thus makes them use tokens to keep trying in an effort to gain the rewards. 

The free tokens get them hooked.

They complete the Ops get the rewards and want to play again.

They run out  of tokens and so buy more tokens.

They complete the Ops get the rewards and want to play again.

The cycle continues.

 

WarFace does this in it's campaign mode and it's massively successful as players want that extra chance when they are so close to winning and getting the payout.

 

[WWDragon]

12 minutes ago, NobleSauvage said:

 I can only imagine that WG's inability to make T8 and above Ops (I seem to recall from somewhere that they said they just didn't know how to balance them) applies at least a little to the lower tiers as well: cruisers especially at T5 can be reeeeally fragile, and battleships can be either Kongo or really slow, so I can see how making an Op. with an intensity and pace that suits as many ships as possible would be even harder at T5 than some others.

Ops usually have lower tier ships as fodder, I mean there is a Campbeltown in Narai and it can really screw the team by getting a transport.

 

Also you can work with slow speed ships like Narai does were even Colorado can keep the pace despite pretty much every other BB being able to outrun her, a defensive Operation (that is not stupid as Newport) also allows slower ships to take part, its a question of bottlenecks as well visibility, the people that complain about CVs know that how useful they can be in Operations because they extend spotting range as DDs end up being impaired due the often small room to maneuver as well being forced into close quarters with "lower tier" ships that simply are entirely capable of out DPS then besides being forced into following a path.

 

The same can be done to higher tier ships, just make the face tier 6-7 fodder, boss ships cheat (because no way in hell that Koenig in Killer Whale is stock) and they only really need to do Tier VIII and IX Operations, even Tier X can be done using that method.

 

[The_Chiv]

5 hours ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

 

Sometimes the best challenge comes in the shape of your team mates.

So fkn true.

[Jessa_Doom]

Just to add i wonder if WG will drop the test servers development for the same reasons as the Operations.

 

WG say there is fewer player and no interest in Operations, NO there is interest it just that WG won't give us anymore of the rewards after getting them once and not making new Opts, even saying that WG won't make them opts accessible to all tier ship so new players that start with low tier ship can play opts.

 

As for the Test server i'm finding less and less players on the tester servers so it seams like the opts there is no interest in testing any new stuff, and when each tester comes around it's about ships class/country that we should be testing but WG won't put them in the test and that makes the testing a lie, i.e. like this last test was about Dutch ships WHAT BS AGAIN NOT ONE DUTCH SHIP TO PLAY IN THE TEST EVEN THE ONE YOU HAVE TO BUILD IN THE DOCKYARD completed DIDN'T GET IT,  and WG don't give out the bonus rewards after each test anymore then will WG stop the TESTER development like the opts.

 

There is one more thing some maps have littler interest too there is one that i know a lot of players on the forum in the past have requested "Epicenter map" be removed But WG won't as many player play it, WE ARE FORCED TO PLAY IT dose not mean we like it.