WG lied to me and I got punised

[Asta__Roth]

Před 14 minutami Sunleader řekl/a:

 

Ok. So Basicly You ARE exactly that kind of Person which will Order Stuff. Use it for some Days and then ask for a Refund.....

 

 

Indeed. There is no Agreement to be had there. Because Frankly. In my Eyes this kind of Behavior is the Actual Fraud.

 

It is exactly this kind of Abuse of Good and Customerfriendly Systems. Which causes ever more Companies to instead use Systems that are not Customerfriendly but also cant be abused.

 

Because People like you will abuse the Tolerance provided by such Systems for Personal Gain and thus force them to limit everything as far as possible and not have any Tolerance.

 

 

 

I'll try to explain it once more for you, ok?

 

It is well within my rights to order something via internet, try it, return it and get my money back. It is a right granted to me by my country's law system as well as EU's.

The right to do that is granted to me in a LAW made by my goverment.

 

I don't understand how can you consider exercising my rights to be a fradulent move. It literally is the opposite.

 

Exercising my right (granted by a law) isn't and cannot be considered abuse or fraud.

 

By ordering, trying and returning a shirt I do not abuse any tolerance. I also get no personal gain. I act within my rights.

This is not about any tolerance, this is simply the law.

 

You can dispute the aforementioned law but the chance to success is null.

[Verblonde]

5 minutes ago, Asta__Roth said:

By ordering, trying and returning a shirt I do not abuse any tolerance.

If you wear the shirt, you are taking the pi$$. If you receive your order, try the thing on and decide it doesn't fit, and return it unused, that isn't taking the pi$$.*

 

Although, as someone alluded to earlier, digital goods are - I believe - treated slightly differently, playing multiple battles in a premium before you realise you don't like it are (roughly) equivalent to wearing your shirt down the pub for an evening before trying to return it, whereas simply looking around the thing in port and assessing stats etc. there are roughly equivalent to trying the shirt on for size (presumably, WG consider that single battle to come under the same heading).

 

*Edit: assuming no manufacturing defects.

[_Kokushibo_]

20 minutes ago, Asta__Roth said:

I'll try to explain it once more for you, ok?

 

It is well within my rights to order something via internet, try it, return it and get my money back. It is a right granted to me by my country's law system as well as EU's.

The right to do that is granted to me in a LAW made by my goverment.

 

I don't understand how can you consider exercising my rights to be a fradulent move. It literally is the opposite.

 

Exercising my right (granted by a law) isn't and cannot be considered abuse or fraud.

 

By ordering, trying and returning a shirt I do not abuse any tolerance. I also get no personal gain. I act within my rights.

This is not about any tolerance, this is simply the law.

 

You can dispute the aforementioned law but the chance to success is null.

It's hilarious to see how someone is judging you from an ethical / moral standpoint, while defending at the same time a company that tries to get its profit mostly by using deceptive practices.

[pra3y]

2 hours ago, Asta__Roth said:

I see, thank you for quoting that part.

 

All I can say is that information given by WG staff (refund after no more than 5 games) and by support (refund after no more than 1 game) is in contradiction with their Terms of Service (not refundable). How can a customer make an informed decision if he gets 3 different pieces of information, all actually coming from WG?

 

I don't mind spending some cash here and there. Afterall its everyone's decision and right. But I want to and (in normal cases) I have a right to know the terms. WG's are unclear, half-hidden or half-ignored.

Then just take the Terms of Service as WG's stance on refund, and anything outside of that is merely whether WG decides to or not (eg; due to a backlash). There is nothing unclear, half-hidden or half-ignored, nor a contradiction.

 

Scummy business practice? Maybe. Within the law? I would assume so. Given that WG is a pretty big company, they would have tailored whatever terms of service they have within the limits of what they can do (before it becomes illegal). Otherwise the penalties for them would be pretty serious.

 

Even if your country has such a law, WG has probably complied with it in some form or another.

 

Plus, your don't return underwear that you have tried on do you  I doubt any reasonable businessmen or government would accept that.

 

 

[Humorpalanta]

1 hour ago, Verblonde said:

If you wear the shirt, you are taking the pi$$. If you receive your order, try the thing on and decide it doesn't fit, and return it unused, that isn't taking the pi$$.*

 

Although, as someone alluded to earlier, digital goods are - I believe - treated slightly differently, playing multiple battles in a premium before you realise you don't like it are (roughly) equivalent to wearing your shirt down the pub for an evening before trying to return it, whereas simply looking around the thing in port and assessing stats etc. there are roughly equivalent to trying the shirt on for size (presumably, WG consider that single battle to come under the same heading).

 

*Edit: assuming no manufacturing defects.

TBH it is WG's fault for not providing any chance for trying out the item.

They could easily create a system within armory where you could borrow a ship for a try out. But if they do not provide it they have to accept that we have the right for fair treatment. Rolling back an account is not it.

[Verblonde]

8 minutes ago, Humorpalanta said:

They could easily create a system within armory where you could borrow a ship for a try out. But if they do not provide it they have to accept that we have the right for fair treatment. Rolling back an account is not it.

They absolutely could (and, effectively, have in WOT - the aforementioned rentals); the reason they haven't - I'm guessing - is that it would cost money to implement and harm sales if they did. Or, at least that is what WG most likely believe would happen.

 

Presumably, WG's legal people have opined that what they're doing is legal; my work involves the selling of real tangible stuff, rather than digital goods, so I don't have an informed view on this aspect.

 

Of course, what's legal and what is the right thing to do aren't necessarily entirely aligned...

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, Asta__Roth said:

I'll try to explain it once more for you, ok?

 

It is well within my rights to order something via internet, try it, return it and get my money back. It is a right granted to me by my country's law system as well as EU's.

The right to do that is granted to me in a LAW made by my goverment.

 

I don't understand how can you consider exercising my rights to be a fradulent move. It literally is the opposite.

 

Exercising my right (granted by a law) isn't and cannot be considered abuse or fraud.

 

By ordering, trying and returning a shirt I do not abuse any tolerance. I also get no personal gain. I act within my rights.

This is not about any tolerance, this is simply the law.

 

You can dispute the aforementioned law but the chance to success is null.

 

Well Mate.

Its also Perfectly in WGs Rights to make the Refund come at the Cost of a Rollback of your Account.

So WG is Simply Excercising their Rights here arent they.

 

So if thats your Opinion I am not sure what this Topic is about.

WG Simply Excercised their Rights.

 

 

[WWDragon]

2 hours ago, Whrrrrr said:

It's hilarious to see how someone is judging you from an ethical / moral standpoint, while defending at the same time a company that tries to get its profit mostly by using deceptive practices.

I am sorry but one does not negate the other, this is a slippery slope.

The fact is WG doesnt have a rental system, using the refund system in a attempt to use it as a rental system is abusing the refund system and all you achieve is companies altering their refund policy to be further restrictive or just abolish it because the refund system was created to refund faulty products.

 

[Yedwy]

17 hours ago, WWDragon said:

I am sorry but one does not negate the other, this is a slippery slope.

The fact is WG doesnt have a rental system, using the refund system in a attempt to use it as a rental system is abusing the refund system and all you achieve is companies altering their refund policy to be further restrictive or just abolish it because the refund system was created to refund faulty products.

 

Well lets see them restrict it further then 1 battle then

[KillStealBoss]

Imho the best thing to do for WG in that case is to give access to each premium ship for 3 battles, 2-3 premium ships a month for account. No stats will be counted. It's very easy since the armoury is here they can make a tab of "Test leasing of dubloon ships". It would be a win win for both WG and playerbase. 

 

[Sunleader]

25 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Well lets see them restrict it further then 1 battle then

 

On a Legal Level. They already did.

Because they are already Excluding your Right of a Refund in the Purchase Contract by saying that your Refund is Forfeit the moment the Service is Completely Provided.

Which According to WG. Is the moment that the Ship is Added to your Account.

 

Meaning even now. The Refund they are giving by Offering to Rollback your Account to the Time before your Purchase. Is already Voluntary from their Side of View.

And on a Legal level. It is actually very Likely. That if they Simply Refused a Refund Based on that Purchase Contract you Agreed to. And in which you Voluntarily Forfeit your Right on a Refund for getting the Service (the Ship) Immediately.

You would be Unable to actually do anything about it.

 

You can try to not Agree to Waive your own Right of Refund. But then they will Simply not give you the Ship for 30 Days. Thus waiting out the Refund Timer before you even get the Ship.

[Taliesn]

12 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Imho the best thing to do for WG in that case is to give access to each premium ship for 3 battles, 2-3 premium ships a month for account. No stats will be counted. It's very easy since the armoury is here they can make a tab of "Test leasing of dubloon ships". It would be a win win for both WG and playerbase. 

 

 

Looking at this from a purely cynical point of view, I don't think that's a win win for WG who probably stands to lose some impulsive buying from trigger happy wallets out there that won't be compensated for the couple guys who look at one ship and decide hey, lets buy it, it's actually nicer than I tought it would be.

 

Being even more cynical about it, I can already see the posts claiming WG is giving those tryout customers better MM/RNG so that they get a false, great first impression, opening another huge can of worms.

 

Yeah, definately not a win win.

[MimosA_A]

EU law is really not unclear on this subject...

EDIT: source https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/shopping-consumer-rights/index_en.htm#changed-mind-distance-1

 

Quote

 

However, the 14-day cooling off period does not apply to all purchases. Some of the exemptions are:

 

online digital content, if you have already started downloading or streaming it and you agreed that you would lose your right of withdrawal by starting the performance
 

 

[KillStealBoss]

42 minutes ago, Taliesn said:

 

Looking at this from a purely cynical point of view, I don't think that's a win win for WG who probably stands to lose some impulsive buying from trigger happy wallets out there that won't be compensated for the couple guys who look at one ship and decide hey, lets buy it, it's actually nicer than I tought it would be.

 

Being even more cynical about it, I can already see the posts claiming WG is giving those tryout customers better MM/RNG so that they get a false, great first impression, opening another huge can of worms.

 

Yeah, definately not a win win.

It won't be for new released ships but those which are already in armoury for coupon - and as i said it would be limited to 2-3 ships per update per account. 

And people claming the MM is rigged or better for CCs to present the game better - I heard a lot of such BS. 

[MimosA_A]

21 hours ago, Asta__Roth said:

I'll try to explain it once more for you, ok?

 

It is well within my rights to order something via internet, try it, return it and get my money back. It is a right granted to me by my country's law system as well as EU's.

The right to do that is granted to me in a LAW made by my goverment.

 

I don't understand how can you consider exercising my rights to be a fradulent move. It literally is the opposite.

 

Exercising my right (granted by a law) isn't and cannot be considered abuse or fraud.

 

By ordering, trying and returning a shirt I do not abuse any tolerance. I also get no personal gain. I act within my rights.

This is not about any tolerance, this is simply the law.

 

You can dispute the aforementioned law but the chance to success is null.

Except the EU and possibly your country have different rules/exceptions for digital goods. So at least in EU law, it is not well within your rights. It's actually courtesy of WG to even consider a refund.

[WWDragon]

34 minutes ago, MimosA_A said:

EU law is really not unclear on this subject...

Thats because EU law that doesnt apply because there is no sovereign nation called European Union.

Laws have to be approved by those members and became their country law, EU cannot override the sovereignty of its member states, in theory the EU can "strong arm" its members to accept it but in reality they wont because the last thing they want is kicking a country out since that will start a domino effect over what still is supposed to be "voluntary" membership.

 

So each nation have their own consumer protection laws, they follow the same basic outline as the EU "law" but they can go beyond it, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 for example also includes Freemium content (so the whole "we arent responsible for damage by installing or using this software" in the EULA? doesnt help up in the UK).

[MimosA_A]

45 minutes ago, WWDragon said:

Thats because EU law that doesnt apply because there is no sovereign nation called European Union.

Laws have to be approved by those members and became their country law, EU cannot override the sovereignty of its member states, in theory the EU can "strong arm" its members to accept it but in reality they wont because the last thing they want is kicking a country out since that will start a domino effect over what still is supposed to be "voluntary" membership.

  

So each nation have their own consumer protection laws, they follow the same basic outline as the EU "law" but they can go beyond it, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 for example also includes Freemium content (so the whole "we arent responsible for damage by installing or using this software" in the EULA? doesnt help up in the UK). 

Quote

 

According to the precedence principle, European law is superior to the national laws of Member States. The precedence principle applies to all European acts with a binding force. Therefore, Member States may not apply a national rule which contradicts to European law.
 

 

Do you people actually read something on the subject sometimes before posting?

 

And yes, the implementation of the directives can vary a bit, but AFAIK, especially the digital goods section is very much unified across pretty much every European country.

 

Digital goods have a separate treatment in virtually all countries (often through national regulations as in the UK, where the 14 day cool-off also doesn't apply to digital goods, or/and EU regulation). Basically, unless a digital product is not as advertised or faulty, you are out of luck.

 

[tocqueville8]

I was under the impression that refunds are for players who accidentally purchased a ship or other item, or maybe they did it on purpose, but then read a review that made them change their mind ("now that I look at it, that other premium seems a better deal!"), and just want to roll things back.

 

I never understood it to be a ***TRY THIS SHIP FOR FREE (5 games, refund 100%)*** policy. There was never such a policy, afaik.

 

I had some free trials about two years ago (Gallant, Massachussetts, Duke of York), just like I had an unexpected coupon (Dunkerque), and I don't think I was the only one to get a free trial for the Kaga last year, but those were advertised to me personally, in the Armory or in Port. Granted, they were time-limited, not games-limited, but the point stands.

 

The idea that one can simply buy all premiums, use them to farm credits and level up captains, and then return each of them after 5 games, seems extremely suspicious to me. This isn't a library, it's a company. And there are, what, 200 premium ships? Clearly that's not what the refund system is for, which is why I find it reasonable that you can ask for a refund, but they're not obligated to give you one.

 

If I want to figure out a ship, I'll read reviews, I'll watch some replays available on the website, and I'll ask people in battle.

 

TL;DR:

 

I would certainly not call this "a new scam":

1) WG never advertised a generalized "you can try any and every premium ship for 5 games, refund guaranteed" policy

2) a two months old post by a community manager telling someone he could *ask* for a particular refund doesn't create such policy

[WWDragon]

3 minutes ago, MimosA_A said:

Do you people actually read something on the subject sometimes before posting?

Oh I do but I am saying that because Germany Supreme Court decided that no, that is unconstitutional when it goes against the German Constitution.

Unless you want to argue EU law is superior to their members constitution, BTW even if the EU law is "supperior" its still have to be rectified and signed into law by its member states ... what happens if a member state rejects doing (and that have happened, see Lisbon Accords) depends on their pecking order, Portugal or Greece would get f**ked but German and France would get away with it.

[MimosA_A]

10 minutes ago, WWDragon said:

Oh I do but I am saying that because Germany Supreme Court decided that no, that is unconstitutional when it goes against the German Constitution.

Unless you want to argue EU law is superior to their members constitution, BTW even if the EU law is "supperior" its still have to be rectified and signed into law by its member states ... what happens if a member state rejects doing (and that have happened, see Lisbon Accords) depends on their pecking order, Portugal or Greece would get f**ked but German and France would get away with it.

Cool. But in this case not super relevant as Germany has fully implemented the EU directive, including the  provision that allows companies to ask you to waive your 14-withdrawal period.

 

(and AFAIK consumer rights aren't in the constitution of any country).

 

Bottom line, for all countries I know the rules of, WG is completely within their rights here. They even went further than they had to. So unless I'm missing some country that has implemented the directive differently, there's only a moral argument here, but legally, taking any steps against WG is a waste of your time and money.

EDIT and for some technical clarification, there's a difference between EU directives and regulations. Regulations are binding as is and do not allow for implementation by member states. Directives (like the consumer ones) are outlines that need to be implemented by member states.

 

And as a sidenote

The Court of Justice has ruled that national constitutions should also be subject to the precedence principle. It is therefore a matter for national judges not to apply the provisions of a constitution which contradict European law.

 

so if there was ever a conflict between a constitution and EU ruling, that would be interesting.

[YabbaCoe]

On 7/24/2021 at 10:51 PM, Asta__Roth said:

Hello,

 

I'd like to warn y'all about a new scam (at least new for me) that WG pulled off on me.

 

I was considering buying a premium ship for some time, for the sake of anonymity let's call it Apollo. Apollo is available for doubloons.

 

I felt like I will not go for it.

 

While checking something on the forum I've came across YabbaCoe's post from May, here:

What was interesting for me was the second part of the post. Porpoise asked if he can get a refund on Saipan after the rework, said he hasn't played a single game since.

YabbaCoe told him that refund was possible during the rework and that now (May) is too late.

YabbaCoe's second sentence is important here:

After buying a premium ship you can usually ask for refund if you don't play more than 5 battles and its 2 days max since the purchase.

 

I was like "Wow, I can actually try Apollo and give it back if I dislike it!"

 

So I've bought Apollo and tried it in 2 games. I've disliked Apollo. I've contacted the support right away and explained everything.

 

They told me they can rollback my account, thus deleting anything and everything I've done in the game, nothing else can be done. I have played the game meanwhile so I was not interested in rollback.

 

I've told them I know they can simply remove the ship - same way the did it with 2020 Santa Scamtainers.

 

Support told me that those containers were exception and that they can't do that for me now.

 

Well, knowing that they can do what I've asked for, and that they do have the tools to do so, I was kinda... Puzzled? So I have explained my problem as best as I could.

I've said that I've made the purchase following the info that was written by a WG staff, I've given them the link to the YabbaCoe's post and I have provided a translation.

 

They refused.

 

I've asked them if the information provided by WG staff should be considered misleading in order to gain financial resources dishonest way. If WG staff purposedly lie on a public forum and lead customers to a trap where the customer is cheated.

 

The kinda shocking answer came back. Basically it said "As Yabba said, support can't cancel a ship purchase if the ship was used."

 

I have once again (for the third time already) pointed to Yabba's post that literally said "... refund...if you don't play more than 5 battles..."

I have also stressed the fact that I was mislead by a WG staff member, that I've played only 2 (out of alleged 5) games with Apollo and I should get what I was asking for.

 

Another hilarious answer came back. They said there's no contradiction between what Yabba wrote and the support wrote.

Yabba said you can play maximum of 5 games and ask for refund, support said you can't play the ship at all to get refund. I don't know but I see clear contradiction.

Anyway, after telling them I've played just 2 games they told me they can remove the ship if I played maximum of 1 game with it.

 

Somehow WG considers 5=0=1.

 

In the end I've just agreed with the rollback. I've been told that to simply remove the ship from my account, I'd have to have max 1 game played with it, and that its rare exception and gesture of good will from WG.

Well, example of WG's good will is decribed above.

 

tl;dr

WG lied to me and to make it right I had to pay a price. Looks like they are unsure of their wording and the customer pays the price in the end.

Hello.

I need to say, that I made mistake over there. Some time ago it was like this, but I never remembered how exactly. True is, that even though I mentioned before, that I don't remember that much, I should have investigate on that further.

I did just now, asked my colleagues and discovered that there is only one rule with that, mentioned in: https://eu.wargaming.net/support/en/products/wows/article/10213/

" Purchases through the Armory can be refunded when no more than one (1) battle is played with the ship. "

Also it doesn't matter when you ask for that refund, so if you purchase a ship and play 1 single battle with that, you can ask for refund even after several months etc.

 

So there is few things connected to this particular case

• I personally made a mistake and I acknowledge that. As I already saw, that there were some exceptions, if you would poke me before, normally I would be able to ask for exception, especially if you played only 2 battles soon after the purchase. Ship happens and everybody make mistakes.
• Before posting this you already agreed with the rollback, which already can't be reversed, so unfortunately I can't help you with that anymore.
• It is always adviced to read all the details before making a purchase. Also that article is available on Customer Support page, so you could have searched for that yourself to find that info.

 

But as I mentioned, this all happened due to my mistake and I would like to apologize for that.

That is why I will send you in PM a code for few days of premium time as my apology for this situation.

[Wulf_Ace]

8 hours ago, YabbaCoe said:

 

 

But as I mentioned, this all happened due to my mistake and I would like to apologize for that.

That is why I will send you in PM a code for few days of premium time as my apology for this situation.

too bad wg didnt apologize for Satans crates like this, maybe people would at least forgive the company for scamming, hope they look up on your example.

+1 to you bro.

[Asta__Roth]

Thank you @YabbaCoe, I appreciate that WG still have some decent people around.

 

I know I could have waited for you but being unsure if WG would just refund me instead of doing a rollback, I didn't want to wait over the weekend and just went for the rollback. I've lost some progress but if the rollback would be the only way, I'd lose more.

 

I don't know if you have an access to support tickets, but I have told the support guys that it could have just been a mistake or miscommunication on your/WG's side, they would still not care.

While I agree that I could have search for all the possible info on Support Page, the overall info is still confusing (5 games/1 game/0 games).

 

Could you bring some extra info about that 1 game with ship purchesed in Armoury?

1) The ships I can buy for real cash I can buy with doubloons via Armoury. The refund being possible only for Armoury purchases is due to some bank fees, right? Its easier to refund ingame currency than to real money to a real bank.

2) If I use a coupon to buy a ship in the Armoury, will you refund the coupon as well?

3) Is this actually a legal way how to try a premium ship?

4) Does refunds have some limit? Can I buy a premium ship, play 1 game, refund it, buy it again, play 1 game and so on? Or is it 1 refund per ship (once in a lifetime refund per ship)? Or 1 refund per ship per month?

5) Are Armoury refunds available for all currencies (steel, research points, doubloons, coal)?

 

I know these might be really stupid questions (and might grind some people's gears) but that 1 sentence kinda sparks more questions. I just wanna know what I can do and what to expect.

 

 

[YabbaCoe]

1 hour ago, Asta__Roth said:

Thank you @YabbaCoe, I appreciate that WG still have some decent people around.

 

I know I could have waited for you but being unsure if WG would just refund me instead of doing a rollback, I didn't want to wait over the weekend and just went for the rollback. I've lost some progress but if the rollback would be the only way, I'd lose more.

 

I don't know if you have an access to support tickets, but I have told the support guys that it could have just been a mistake or miscommunication on your/WG's side, they would still not care.

While I agree that I could have search for all the possible info on Support Page, the overall info is still confusing (5 games/1 game/0 games).

 

Could you bring some extra info about that 1 game with ship purchesed in Armoury?

1) The ships I can buy for real cash I can buy with doubloons via Armoury. The refund being possible only for Armoury purchases is due to some bank fees, right? Its easier to refund ingame currency than to real money to a real bank.

2) If I use a coupon to buy a ship in the Armoury, will you refund the coupon as well?

3) Is this actually a legal way how to try a premium ship?

4) Does refunds have some limit? Can I buy a premium ship, play 1 game, refund it, buy it again, play 1 game and so on? Or is it 1 refund per ship (once in a lifetime refund per ship)? Or 1 refund per ship per month?

5) Are Armoury refunds available for all currencies (steel, research points, doubloons, coal)?

 

I know these might be really stupid questions (and might grind some people's gears) but that 1 sentence kinda sparks more questions. I just wanna know what I can do and what to expect.

 

 

1) Refund should be possible for both purchases in Armory and also Premium shop. But that really depends on your payment method, because for example for PaySafeCard it is not possible due to technical reasons.

2) Most likely no according to https://eu.wargaming.net/support/en/products/wows/article/10208/

3) It is definitely not recommended way. When it happens really occasionally, it is ok. But if you would do the same thing all over again, several times per month, you could be marked as something like a spammer and it would be strongly advised you to check the ship carefully before purchasing. Also this would be painful to argue with Customer Support, painful for you and also for them. Also in the article there is a sentence: Some payment providers have their own time limits for refunds. Once it has elapsed, we will no longer be able to process your refund request.

4) Stats are gathered for each ship. So if you would purchase the same ship again and play 1 battle, it would already be 2nd battle on that ship.

5) Yes, all currencies in Armory can be refundable.

[Hugh_Ruka]

32 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

 and it would be strongly advised you to check the ship carefully before purchasing.

Care to enlighten us HOW ? There are several key aspects of ships you cannot check by just looking at the ship in port.

 

At some point in time there were rental options for premiums considered and the idea never came back. You can simply disable XP/credits generation for rental ships leaving players with expenses (modules, service costs) so the option is not abused ...