The torpedo paradox

[___V_E_N_O_M___]

Hi all, 

 

I have recently started using my HSF Harekaze I in order to "GIT GUD" at DDs.

 

The thing I find most annoying about destroyers and this is not just something I have experienced on my own ships but also when free viewing other players using DDs.

 

It seems a lot of the time when destroyers release their torpedoes, the ship is moving broadside to them so they should hit. But at the last second for some reason, a target makes an instinctual move to turn into the paths of the torpedoes. So the target ship slips between them.

 

Even in situations where a target is distracted by more than one enemy, they are still able to turn into the face of oncoming torpedoes.

 

How is this possible, when the target ship does not have the range to see the torpedoes coming before it's too late??

[Pukovnik7]

6 minutes ago, ___V_E_N_O_M___ said:

Hi all, 

 

I have recently started using my HSF Harekaze I in order to "GIT GUD" at DDs.

 

The thing I find most annoying about destroyers and this is not just something I have experienced on my own ships but also when free viewing other players using DDs.

 

It seems a lot of the time when destroyers release their torpedoes, the ship is moving broadside to them so they should hit. But at the last second for some reason, a target makes an instinctual move to turn into the paths of the torpedoes. So the target ship slips between them.

 

Even in situations where a target is distracted by more than one enemy, they are still able to turn into the face of oncoming torpedoes.

 

How is this possible, when the target ship does not have the range to see the torpedoes coming before it's too late??

Simple: player is not an idiot. If you a) suspect you are being targeted, b) know you are being targeted or c) suspect there may be destroyers around, you never sail in straight line for long. At least, I make a random turn every couple dozen seconds, and sometimes I will sail in an outright zig-zag pattern. It is excellent for countering long-range torpedo "sniping", but also long-range attacks in general (such as battleship salvoes).

 

If somebody sails in a straight line all the time, they have either fallen victim to target focus / tunnel vision, are a n00b, or both.

[ColonelPete]

Random movement.

 

One has to be pretty ignorant to move in a straight line for too long.

 

Many players use rudder for:

• making turrets turn faster
• opening up broadside to use all turrets and then angling again, depending on who and how many enemies are aiming at you
• angling towards planes

Just the way your teammates AIM at your target, can make your target use the rudder.

[Molly_Delaney]

There is a Captain skill which shows how many ships are aiming guns at you.

If this suddenly goes up one it is a good indication that a DD or other torpedo equipped vessel has just launched and switched back to guns.

This can also be used to spook targets by switching between torps & guns and checking their reaction.

[Bear__Necessities]

10,000 games and only just now clocking that other have access to the the A and D keys??...

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

7 minutes ago, Bear__Necessities said:

10,000 games and only just now clocking that other have access to the the A and D keys??...

 

This.

 

Also @OP what you should know about the Harekaze torps is that they create huge gaps at max range and you should always stack both sets to make the gaps a bit smaller. 

[KillStealBoss]

1 minute ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

 

This.

 

Also @OP what you should know about the Harekaze torps is that they create huge gaps at max range and you should always stack both sets to make the gaps a bit smaller. 

Those gaps are really big with Neustrashimy, someone even thought that I’m torping widespread. 

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

The thing about the Harekaze torps is that they not only create large gaps, but they also leave a long reaction time to the enemy. 

 

So it's really advisable to stack them. 

[SodaBubbles]

Yep. IJN torps leave BB sized gaps and they are easy to spot. Getting hits with them is not easy, especially against fast moving and agile higher tier BBs.

 

 

[Itwastuesday]

Try to see where they are going. If it's "to the next map to snipe more!" it's going to be pain to hit them since they don't have anywhere to be in their mind.

[tocqueville8]

5 hours ago, ___V_E_N_O_M___ said:

It seems a lot of the time when destroyers release their torpedoes, the ship is moving broadside to them so they should hit. But at the last second for some reason, a target makes an instinctual move to turn into the paths of the torpedoes. So the target ship slips between them.

 

4 hours ago, Molly_Delaney said:

There is a Captain skill which shows how many ships are aiming guns at you.

 If this suddenly goes up one it is a good indication that a DD or other torpedo equipped vessel has just launched and switched back to guns.

 

I think it's only partially people paying attention to Priority Target, and a lot of it is simply the fact that torps take a long time to reach a target beyond the DD concealment range, and in the meantime the target has all sorts of unrelated reasons to turn in, turn out, slow down, run aground, or get sunk by someone else...

 

Basically:

 

1) if the target knows you're sniping him (you've launched torps and missed before, or you've been spotted recently in the area, or he's just paying attention to the minimap), take some turns into account and aim short

 

2A) if the target has no idea you're there, and sailing in a straight line, strategically, makes sense for him (he's otherwise free to push that flank, let's say), go for the indicator, or even a bit ahead if the target was accelerating. I often miss out on Dev Strikes because I assume the target will slow down for some reason, but many simply don't, because they have no other reason to.

 

2B) if the target has no idea you're there, but in his place you wouldn't be sailing in a straight line (he's under air attack, he has to wiggle to dodge incoming BB shells, he has to sail around an island, he has to turn away to survive or turn in to stay relevant in the game...anything), try to predict their move and aim there.

In short, either the target makes a good move, and you get torpedo hits, or you get nothing but the target makes a bad move, which is better than nothing.

 

3) Unless maybe you have 3 launchers, don't stagger your drops: the 2nd one is easier to dodge once you've turned in to avoid the 1st one. Most people will attempt to dodge, even if it makes no difference: it's just an instinct.

 

4) Sometimes it looks like the target is sailing away and you won't hit it. However, if it's the only target available, drop torps on the assumption that he will slow down/turn in or whatever would allow you to hit. If he keeps sailing away, ah well, your torps will reload by the time you get another target, but there's a chance you'll get some hits right now.

[lafeel]

5 hours ago, ___V_E_N_O_M___ said:

How is this possible, when the target ship does not have the range to see the torpedoes coming before it's too late??

Situational awareness, it's not just a captain's skill.

 

Also, why I take priority target on all my ships :P

[Saltface]

Depending on your build and captain skills Harekaze Torpedoes have a speed ranging from 62 Kts (no modules no skills) to 68 (+5% speed from module in slot 3 and +5% from Captain Skill) and a detection range of 1.6 Km.

If your target does not run vigilance or TLS (slot 5) they have 9.93 second (62 Kts) up to 9.05 seconds (68 Kts) to react and dodge.

If your target runs Vigilance then the numbers are 12.41 seconds (62 Kts) to 11.31 seconds (68 Kts)

If your target has mounted TLS in slot 6 (no Vigilance) then they have a minimum acquisition range of 1.8 Km giving them from 11.17 seconds to 10.18 seconds to react. As TLS and Vigilance can be stacked the numbers can go up to  13.96 seconds to 12.73 seconds.

If your target have their Hydro active then they can detect torpedoes from 3 Km to 4 Km. Now the time to react has gone up to 18.61 seconds for 3 Km hydro and 62 Kts torpedo speed.

 

9 hours ago, ___V_E_N_O_M___ said:

But at the last second for some reason, a target makes an instinctual move to turn into the paths of the torpedoes. So the target ship slips between them.

so what you describe is a player paying attention to the torpedo alert on their screen and making good of the 11 to 13 seconds they have to dodge your torps.

 

Depending on the angle of impact, the target can evade by turning in your torpedoes 0 to 90 degrees from the bow or turn out 0 to 90 degrees from the stern (or 90 to 180). The worst case for the target is angle of impact as close as possible to 90 degrees. You can see that by observing the intersection of your bearing line and the target course line on your minimap. Assuming they will turn in to your torps try sending the second launch with 2 - 3 seconds delay a tiny bit short. This will angle your two launches at the impact point. Alternatively, you can try to send the first set 10% long and the second 10% short while launching as fast as possible both tubes. This method, while still stacking the torps, creates a bit bigger spread overall.

 

Also take note that at about 6.5 Km your spread is as wide as a broadside Kremlin. 

 

 

 

.

[MementoMori_6030]

Vor 5 Stunden, SodaBubbles sagte:

Yep. IJN torps leave BB sized gaps and they are easy to spot.

Makes you wonder why WG thinks the Long Lance should have an obcenely high visibility. After all, they were oxygene powered and were emitting only carbon dioxide (highly soluble in water) and vaporized water, so there was almost no visible bubble trail.

 

I guess Tshushima revenge syndrome is still prevalent in St. Pete.

[Panocek]

7 minutes ago, MementoMori_6030 said:

Makes you wonder why WG thinks the Long Lance should have an obcenely high visibility. After all, they were oxygene powered and were emitting only carbon dioxide (highly soluble in water) and vaporized water, so there was almost no visible bubble trail.

 

I guess Tshushima revenge syndrome is still prevalent in St. Pete.

Or its residue of WG balancing hammer from early days, when "20km Shima spam" was deemed by Wargaming as no bueno, so they axed torps in entire tech tree and spawned "OP premium" when doing so (Kamikaze twins)

[MementoMori_6030]

Vor 40 Minuten, Panocek sagte:

Or its residue of WG balancing hammer from early days, when "20km Shima spam" was deemed by Wargaming as no bueno, so they axed torps in entire tech tree and spawned "OP premium" when doing so (Kamikaze twins)

It might have been like that:

"Viktor, if we represent IJN and RU ships as they existed, the Tsar wouldn't have won the naval war against Japan."

"But Anatoly - the Tsar totally lost that naval war."

"Oh. Why don't our history books mention that? Anyway - nerf IJN ships!"

[Adm_Andre]

Vor 1 Stunde, Panocek sagte:

Or its residue of WG balancing hammer from early days, when "20km Shima spam" was deemed by Wargaming as no bueno, so they axed torps in entire tech tree and spawned "OP premium" when doing so (Kamikaze twins)

I think there's a reason why it's called "wall of skill" and the Kamikaze twins were before the nerf, iirc

 

[Panocek]

4 minutes ago, Adm_Andre said:

I think there's a reason why it's called "wall of skill" and the Kamikaze twins were before the nerf, iirc

 

Kamikaze twins when they were introduced were seen as "meh copy of a tech tree Minekaze" back then. But the moment WG took those 7km 68kts torps away from Minekaze, suddenly they became "OP" ships

[MimosA_A]

12 hours ago, Pukovnik7 said:

Simple: player is not an idiot. If you a) suspect you are being targeted, b) know you are being targeted or c) suspect there may be destroyers around, you never sail in straight line for long. At least, I make a random turn every couple dozen seconds, and sometimes I will sail in an outright zig-zag pattern. It is excellent for countering long-range torpedo "sniping", but also long-range attacks in general (such as battleship salvoes). 

 

If somebody sails in a straight line all the time, they have either fallen victim to target focus / tunnel vision, are a n00b, or both. 

This.

 

And torpedo detection range :)

[Sunleader]

12 hours ago, ___V_E_N_O_M___ said:

Hi all, 

 

I have recently started using my HSF Harekaze I in order to "GIT GUD" at DDs.

 

The thing I find most annoying about destroyers and this is not just something I have experienced on my own ships but also when free viewing other players using DDs.

 

It seems a lot of the time when destroyers release their torpedoes, the ship is moving broadside to them so they should hit. But at the last second for some reason, a target makes an instinctual move to turn into the paths of the torpedoes. So the target ship slips between them.

 

Even in situations where a target is distracted by more than one enemy, they are still able to turn into the face of oncoming torpedoes.

 

How is this possible, when the target ship does not have the range to see the torpedoes coming before it's too late??

 

Feel Free to Ignore the Haters.

Its a Good thing to Try and get Better and to Ask for Advice when you dont Understand why something isnt Working.

 

 

In General you have to Consider that your not the only Human Player.

Other Players are also Human. So they will know a Trick or Two as well. Many also have actual Experience in the Game due to Playing for quite some Time.

Beyond that there is also Skills and Consumables that give you an Early Warning from Torps.

 

Therefore there is several Possible Reasons due to which Players can Dodge Torps.

 

 

1.

A Trick that Experienced Players know. Is that when you have the Skill Priority Target. You get a Warning when someone is Targeting you with their Main Battery Guns.

This Warning however does not Count for Torpedo Launchers.

So if you are being Targeted by One Person but Nobody is Shooting at You. And then Suddenly the Target Lock Dissappears and then a few Seconds Later comes back again.

There is a Good Possibility that the Reason you got a Target Warning was that a Destroyer which was Aiming at you before. Has then Switched to his Torpedo Launchers to Drop Torps on You. And has then Returned to his Main Guns again.

Thus creating the Short Gap in the Warning. As such when this Happens. Many Battleship Players will Alter their Course to make sure they are not in the Path of any Torps Launched at them.

 

2.

Something many Players also dont Notice too much because many Players just consider the Skill Useless.

Is the Skill Vigilance. Which Increases the Range at which you will See Torpedoes.

This Skill gives you a bit more Early Warning against Torpedoes.

And Especially Japanese Torpedoes have a Fairly low Concealment. Meaning they get Detected Fairly Far out.

Which with this Skill Creates a Decent Chance to See them in time to Dodge them.

 

3.

Hydroacoustic Search. A Consumable especially Found on Cruisers as well as German Battleships. Gives a very Large Warning Area against Torpedoes. Especially for Cruisers Allowing them Plenty of Time to Evade Torpedoes when the Consumable is Active.

It only Runs for a Limited Time and has a Fairly long Cooldown. But while its Active. It makes Torpedo Attacks very Inefficient. As it effectively Doubles or even Triples the Range at which the Ship sees Incoming Torpedoes.

 

4.

Then there is the Option that other Ships are in between You and the Enemy.

Enemy Destroyers and Cruisers will often be inbetween You and the Enemy Battleships.

And just like you. They have Good Concealment and thus wont be Spotted unless you get very Close before Dropping the Torps.

As such it can often be that an Allied Destroyer Opened up your Torpedoes thus Informing his Battleship that there is Torpedoes Incoming on his Current Path.

 

5.

Experience, Intuition and Situational Awareness.

As Players Play the Game for Years. And Participate in Hundreds or even Thousands of Battles.

They will over time get a Certain Feeling for the Games Timing.

They Learn to Periodically Change Course so that any Torpedoes Launched at them from Further Away wont be Suddenly Appearing on their Broadside.

They Learn where DDs Spawns are and Learn about certain Locations on the Map where DDs will often Drop Torpedoes towards. For example Spaces between Islands, Capture Points, Smokescreens or certain Islands on their Side of the Map which are Commonly used by Cruisers or BBs to hide behind in a Bow in Position etc etc.

And they Learn to Pay attention to the Battlefield. If an Enemy DD was Spotted within Torpedo Range. If they are Spotted but none of the Enemy Ships that is Firing on them is Within their Concealment Range or if they Watched a Torpedo Salvo from a certain Direction a bit Earlier. They will be Wary of a Potential Destroyer being Close to them. And will therefore Randomly Change Course or Turn into or Away from the Location where they Suspect the Enemy Destroyer to make themselves a more Difficult Target.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok.

Now as to how you can Deal with that.

 

Pls Note. I am a BB and CV Player. Not a DD Player. As such while I am very Aware on how to not get Hit by Incoming Torpedoes. I am not exactly an Expert as to how to Hit others with Torpedoes.

As such my Advice is likely not the Best you.ll find. But I.ll try anyways.

 

Experienced DD Players will often not Directly Aim for the Torpedo Prediction the Game gives you. Instead Expecting the Enemy Ship to make certain Moves and Aim for those Positions instead.

Most commonly when Firing Torpedoes at a Longer Range. Many DD Players will Aim Shorter than the Torpedo Prediction as they will Expect the Enemy Ship to at least maneuver somewhat in the Time while the Torpedoes Travel there. Thus likely not getting as far as the Torpedo Aim Prediction is Expecting them too. As that would Require them to maintain Speed and Direction for the entire Time till the Torps Arrive. Which happens only Rarely.

They will Fire Torps at Locations which they know Enemy Ships like to Hide at. Like Island Corners or Gaps between Islands etc.

They will also Wait for an Enemy Ship to first Turn and Choose a New Direction so that the Torpedoes have the Largest Possible Time Window before the Enemy Changes Course again.

They Pay Attention to the Battle. Thus Dropping Torpedoes into the Way of an Enemy Push when they Flank is Retreating and thus they know that the Enemy will want to Follow.

 

They also will Counteract the things Stated above.

For example. They will not Aim with their Main Guns at an Enemy Ship which they might want to Torpedo Later.

So they dont give them the On Off Effect of Priority Tartget when actually Dropping Torps.

They will also not Immediately Torp a Target they Spotted. Instead waiting for other Ships to also Close in. So its not entirely Obvious that they are the ones Spotting them.

And they will try to Guess where the Enemy DDs are. If Torpedoes came out of the Direction of an Enemy Battleship they want to Torpedo. Then they will know that very likely between them and the Enemy Ship there is an Enemy DD which might Spot their Torpedoes before they Reach the Enemy Battleship. Thus maybe Choosing a Different Target.

Likewise they know which Ships have Hydro and thus will be wary of Torping these Ships from Longer Ranges as they Know that if they Torp them from 10km away the Gaps between the Torpedoes will be easy to Evade for them due to the Hydro Warning them early.

Furthermore they will Use the 2 Torpedo Launchers to Drop the Torpedoes with a Small Delay/Nudge to them. So that the 2nd Torpedo Set Runs inside the Gaps of the 1st Torpedo Set. Thus making Gaps Smaller and thus the Torps Harder to Dodge.

 

 

 

 

 

[Northern_Nightowl]

Hello @___V_E_N_O_M___, may I quite shamelessly advertise for a hopefully nice thread, Tutoring thread, BDA and tactics corner? It's build to serve as a learning resource and to collect exactly the kind of questions that you posted here.

 

BTW, you're actually doing the same thing as I did, or rather, I'm still doing: using the HAREKAZE as a learning vessel. For me, it works to use the limits of your own detectability and sail there (5,4 km visual with commander skills, generally 6km against hydro and the respective radar ranges when confronted with that kind of vessel), so as you will stay unspotted but have the opportunity for as short as possible ranges for your weapons. Otherwise, I can confirm that by conforming to these hints posted above and that I'm also applying, you're taking a step to get better.

 

Regards, Nightowl

[Pikkozoikum]

23 hours ago, ___V_E_N_O_M___ said:

Hi all, 

 

I have recently started using my HSF Harekaze I in order to "GIT GUD" at DDs.

 

The thing I find most annoying about destroyers and this is not just something I have experienced on my own ships but also when free viewing other players using DDs.

 

It seems a lot of the time when destroyers release their torpedoes, the ship is moving broadside to them so they should hit. But at the last second for some reason, a target makes an instinctual move to turn into the paths of the torpedoes. So the target ship slips between them.

 

Even in situations where a target is distracted by more than one enemy, they are still able to turn into the face of oncoming torpedoes.

 

How is this possible, when the target ship does not have the range to see the torpedoes coming before it's too late??

The thing is, that torpedos have a long travel time mostly. They are way slower than shells. So if you drop your torpedos perfectly with the enemies movement, then it can hapen a lot, while they travel

 

1) There is a torepdo bug, that your torps drop in a different angle, when you are turning your ship

2) The enemy is somehow aware of a DD by looking at the map, enemy movement, team composition and default approaches of the DDs etc

3) The enemy ship is just maneuvering, because of another event (enemy firing at the ship, planes are attacking)

4) The enemy just decides to go to another position and maneuvers.

5) Someone spotted the Torps

 

There is a lot that can happen, that the enemy is moving and I like I said, torpedos give a lot time, that this can happen

[Gnirf]

It also depends on the ship if you fire torps at a battleship f.e. it is a slower rudder response than a DD which makes the BB sometimes seem like he has luck but he has done the turning motion earlier than you think.

[___V_E_N_O_M___]

What makes things worse and dont laugh..

 

I am using the torpedo reload booster option instead of smoke. So I aimlessly spam 16 torpedoes and they still slip through the net.

 

10k range I think the speed is 62

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

26 minutes ago, ___V_E_N_O_M___ said:

What makes things worse and dont laugh..

 

I am using the torpedo reload booster option instead of smoke. So I aimlessly spam 16 torpedoes and they still slip through the net.

 

10k range I think the speed is 62

 

 

Torpedo reload booster can be fun :3