cleveland <-> seattle

[BoxOfAngryBees]

Is it just me, or is the t9 seattle straight-up worse in almost every respect compared to the cleveland even directly, let alone 'the expected' upgrades to t9 in general?

[BLUB__BLUB]

You will need to get used to it, I found Seattle much much better though. 

It is more of a "keep moving around ship" than Cleveland. 

Cleveland is the better islandhugger. 

[BoxOfAngryBees]

But the guns are straight up worse than cleveland in every respect except range ... wouldnt the cleveland do that style of gameplay better than the seattle? Looking at the two hulls, the cleveland is also simply straight up better there too - better citadel protection, better maneuverability ... (the slight speed difference isnt really that important, at least not when your dodging and juking shots)

[ColonelPete]

21 minutes ago, BoxOfAngryBees said:

Is it just me, or is the t9 seattle straight-up worse in almost every respect compared to the cleveland even directly, let alone 'the expected' upgrades to t9 in general?

No.

The problem of Seattle that she plays more often on open maps where she either cannot get cover or cannot reach the enemies.

[aler1x]

The only things that I really like better about Seattle than about Cleveland are the heal and the sixth upgrade slot - which are simply perks of the higher tier, not really something about the ship itself. Otherwise there are - in my mind - a fair few straight-up downgrades:

•  Seattle is much more sluggish. Yes, she's faster, but she's also fatter and has worse rudder shift, and on top it at least seems to me as if her acceleration/deceleration characteristics were also worse
• She's a bigger target with even less armor than Cleveland, the combination making sure that most BBs she faces only need to cough in your general direction for you to fall over
• Her detectability is worse. By sea it's only 300m, although I've found those to be pretty critical 300m since it doubles the gap between her detectability and her radar range. By air, her longer-range AA nets her over a kilometer worse concealment meaning she's almost permanently detected if an enemy CV decides to play on your flank
• Her turrets are bigger, break more easily (or so it seems to me) and turn atrociously slowly. Seriously, how did her designers hope would she be able to track late-WW2 and early jet aircraft with those seemingly hand-cranked monstrosities!?

Overall and once you factor in her higher tier she's just bad. She can't play island-hugging as well as Cleveland can because she's too fat and too helpless (no torps and not really enough DPM to deter anybody from rushing you, while both Cleveland and Worcester, for their respective tiers, can at least bash anyone over the head fairly seriously that tries to dig them out). She can't play open water as well as Cleveland can (not that Cleveland is any good at that, it's just that Seattle is even worse) because her paper-thin plating and armour, floaty arcs and sluggish handling make her easy pickings with little chance to fight back. She's worse against DDs because of her worse conceal, bad agility and slow-turning turrets. And she gets nuked across the map even worse than Cleveland because she's fatter with less armour and gets shot at, on average, by bigger, meaner, and more accurate guns. She really only has the heal going for her, and she badly needs it, but it's just not nearly enough.

 

[BoxOfAngryBees]

9 minutes ago, aler1x said:

Seriously, how did her designers hope would she be able to track late-WW2 and early jet aircraft with those seemingly hand-cranked monstrosities!?

dont know the real ships stats but im pretty sure wedgie took liberties to 'balans' it - with their backwards logic, as usual.

 

but thats also pretty much the conclusion ive come to as well - besides the t9 gimmicks, its  simply worse.

 

guess ill stop at the cleveland, then - tis a shame. Maybe ill do what ColonelPete said but .... well, short ranged cruisers on open water and what happens to them there is well known.

[aler1x]

Vor 1 Minute, BoxOfAngryBees sagte:

dont know the real ships stats but im pretty sure wedgie took liberties to 'balans' it - with their backwards logic, as usual.

 

but thats also pretty much the conclusion ive come to as well - besides the t9 gimmicks, its  simply worse.

 

guess ill stop at the cleveland, then - tis a shame. Maybe ill do what ColonelPete said but .... well, short ranged cruisers on open water and what happens to them there is well known.

There was no "real ship" - it's a paper ship, and I'm pretty sure WG pulled most of it out of their behinds. All I know is that the USN had serious issues to make the mechanics of a pre-computer-age fully automated dual purpose 6inch turret work prior to the twins on the Worcester class, so maybe they took that as an inspiration - after all that line hails from days when WG at least tried to look lie they cared about historical accuracy

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, BoxOfAngryBees said:

But the guns are straight up worse than cleveland in every respect except range ... wouldnt the cleveland do that style of gameplay better than the seattle? Looking at the two hulls, the cleveland is also simply straight up better there too - better citadel protection, better maneuverability ... (the slight speed difference isnt really that important, at least not when your dodging and juking shots)

I like it better than the Cleveland, but that can also be because Cleveland  faces +2 and Seattle can only face +1 (and -2...).

That said, it isn't much good in randoms (but Cleveland is even worse, IMO). Both depend on other teammates. 

All T8/9 cruisers do, and well, I haven't grinded them all yet: Donskoi, Riga, Neptune - best one was Neptune. 

 

I found Seattle quite OK though in previous Clan Battle. Much better than being stuck in Riga.

But... there you actually a have teammates to assist. In randoms, mostly you do not. 

My WR is shite, damage (average) is shite as well. That's not the point though. 

Just SOMETIMES you do get those teammates, and then, I'd prefer Seattle. Wayyy better than Cleveland.

I got much better games in it, much longer "alive". And I kept it, sold Cleveland right away. 

 

 

[BoxOfAngryBees]

well, i play exclusively random battles ... cant be bothered with clans etc.

If i have credits to burn, I suppose ill give it a try - as you indirectly pointed out, paper stats arent necessarily everything.

[Verblonde]

Although there will certainly be a significant element of user error, Seattle is almost certainly my least favourite ship in the game; trying to play her in Randoms was an entirely miserable experience...

[GarrusBrutus]

2 hours ago, BoxOfAngryBees said:

Is it just me, or is the t9 seattle straight-up worse in almost every respect compared to the cleveland even directly, let alone 'the expected' upgrades to t9 in general?

The Seattle is a beast in the right hands. Yes, she's got worse turret angles and yes she has worse concealment than her predecessor, but her increased DPM makes up for it.

 

Meanwhile, she does play fairly the same:

 

At the start of the game seek opportunities to break line of sight with the enemies and rain HE on big targets. When those are either crippled or dead, you turn into a nasty DD hunter. Don't be one of those "Must. Suicide. To. Radar. Dd. Once." type of Seattle's...

 

Just as with cleveland and worcester: you have insane dpm so don't worry about not doing much in the first half of the game. You can rack up ludicrous amounts of damage mid to late game, when you can isolate your targets and choose your fights. 

 

Mastering Seattle will make you love Worcester even more. 

[OldPappy]

Cleveland feels better because you face worse enemies. But I find her guns meh and slow. Seattle is a good ship in itself. Good aa, good dpm etc. But she just faces big guns bbs on more open maps that just blasts her out of existanse. The radar paints a target on her back! She cannot kite properly due to bad angles and shows broadside if she tries using all guns. 
in the right circumstances she is great! In normal ones she is a suicide on the level of Donskoi - one of my most hated ships. But Donskoi could at least do long range he spamming if sorts. 
I an just trying to get through to Worchester….

[159Hunter]

4 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

I like it better than the Cleveland, but that can also be because Cleveland  faces +2 and Seattle can only face +1 (and -2...).

That said, it isn't much good in randoms (but Cleveland is even worse, IMO).

You wut? 

Cleveland is a solid TVIII cruiser.

[Wulf_Ace]

12 hours ago, BoxOfAngryBees said:

Is it just me, or is the t9 seattle straight-up worse in almost every respect compared to the cleveland even directly, let alone 'the expected' upgrades to t9 in general?

same as Baltimore and Buffalo, Baltimore is amazing while Buffalo is crap.

[Bindolaf_Werebane]

Sure. Some people can make Seattle work. I skipped it. Buffalo is the worst ship in the game. Skipped. Well done, WG. Well played.

[BLUB__BLUB]

9 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

You wut? 

Cleveland is a solid TVIII cruiser.

Problem is, with my luck I get uptiered 9 out of 10 games. 

And in T10 the Seattle is better, it gets blapped only half the times. 

When toptier... and even T8 vs T8 and T9 vs T9 I'd still prefer the Seattle. 

[159Hunter]

3 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Problem is, with my luck I get uptiered 9 out of 10 games. 

And in T10 the Seattle is better, it gets blapped only half the times. 

When toptier... and even T8 vs T8 and T9 vs T9 I'd still prefer the Seattle. 

You do realize the aim is to position in a non blappable position

[BLUB__BLUB]

5 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

You do realize the aim is to position in a non blappable position

Yes I understand how to do it, goes pretty well in CB....

Sometimes I do find them, I make mistakes though. Not all the time... given the occasion, I know how to farm .

But  the problem is there are so many others that have the task to find a position where they can blap you.

Depending on who is the biggest N00b, I farm them or they blap me. 

 

When there is 5 BBs, and 3 cruisers, and I am the T8 vs all T9/10... 

I prefer to be the T9 at that point. If they find you (and they will...), you have a chance to survive. 

In Cleve, not a chance. And it is not ME that decides, I'm not that good... 

 

What happens, I support my DDS and BBs by going dakkadakka, but hey, they die.

And guess then who is next on the menu. The difference is clear, look at the divs.

My clan-mates are no unicums - but at least:

- they do not tater their DD into cap, smoke up, die...

- they do not sail their BBs straight into the enemy DDs torps (after foresaid DD dies);

- they'll usually not sit behind islands being blind and doing nothing. 

[aler1x]

Vor 6 Stunden, BLUB__BLUB sagte:

And in T10 the Seattle is better, it gets blapped only half the times.

I humbly disagree with that statement on the basis of personal experience: Seattle is less maneuverable and even less armoured than Cleveland with worse turret angles while being a way bigger target, meaning that she is both worse at trying to hide (that is,if you want to dakka at the same time) and at trying to play open waters. Where Cleveland gets missed due to smaller silhouette, gets overpenned, or simply is able to dodge with rudder and throttle, Seattle gets chunked hard, sometimes even outright deleted.

 

Will a Cleveland blow up spectacularly when she's caught broadside on? Sure, at least if RNGesus isn't with you in that instant. But so will Seattle under the same cicumstances. The difference is that Seattle is caught way more often and way more easily and is sometimesnot even safe when she's taking measures, in situations where Cleveland would be.

 

The only thing Seattle is more durable against is chip damage, such as DDs shooting back while you vaporise them or random pot shots from 25km away, courtesy of her heal and slightly higher health pool. But that, in my mind, doesn''t really count because it's just the perk of being a T9 instead of a T8 and as such gets offset by other ships of the same tier having the same advantage.

[BLUB__BLUB]

8 minutes ago, aler1x said:

The only thing Seattle is more durable against is chip damage, such as DDs shooting back while you vaporise them

Well, that is my favorite hobby with it, so that might explain it. 

My stats are pretty bad in both ships, though not as bad as in Tallin/Riga. 

I liked the lower tier US cruisers a lot though. Maybe I'll learn. 

[aler1x]

Vor 1 Minute, BLUB__BLUB sagte:

I liked the lower tier US cruisers a lot though.

Me too. Though this might be a controverse opinion, I really enjoy Omaha, with all her tendencies of games in her ending very rapidly and violently. I actually got to Cleveland just before she was moved to T8 so I kinda skipped Helena, but instead got Dallas for free and liked that one very much. And then I had to learn the hard way (you know, the explody one) that the "cruising about spamming HE, roasting DDs and evading BB salvos in open waters" playstyle that I very much liked with Omaha and Dallas, and for the few T6 games I had in her also with Cleveland, just doesn't work (as well) at T8 any more, especially if you want to make regular use of her radar. So I adapted to that and liked the new playstyle of hugging islands, being aware of firing alleys and blasting DDs up close and personal just as well as I liked the old one. Such did Seattle become one of my first T9s, partially also because I had a headstart into that line by skipping T7 and most of T6. And I was just… disappointed, and still am, that I got this (in my opinion) straight-up downgrade of a ship that was bad in both of these playstyles and instead had to go for some kind of inelegant combination and sometimes was just crap outta luck. I played her a lot in that time because for some reason I had ambitions to further the Halsey campaign and needed a T9+ american cruiser for many of the missions, and still I didn't get warm with her. T9 is easily my most favourite tier in the game (followed by T7) which is probably the reason whyI don't hate her so much as that I just don't like her, but still… I think she's just a frustratingly meh ship in an otherwise great line…

[flagd]

8 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

You do realize the aim is to position in a non blappable position

Side question from a noob who's grinding this tree but otherwise has nothing else to add to this discussion:  HOW????  Any replays/videos of it being done right?  Watching videos of pros parading around in the open shooting continuously and mysteriously not getting shot at isn't helping me at all.

 

K, I'll go back to my miserable red PR hovel now...

 

[159Hunter]

8 hours ago, flagd said:

Side question from a noob who's grinding this tree but otherwise has nothing else to add to this discussion:  HOW????  Any replays/videos of it being done right?  Watching videos of pros parading around in the open shooting continuously and mysteriously not getting shot at isn't helping me at all.

 

K, I'll go back to my miserable red PR hovel now...

 

Islands are your friends.

Almost always keep islands between the enemy and you when firing. You don't need to hug the island as you need to be able to shoot over the island. But you can't be too far (easier to get spotted and get shot).

 

It's a matter of finding the good spots ( experience when playing maps, seeing how others position, youtube videos...)

 

Open water gunboating can be done, but it is far more risky and requieres a lot more situational awareness ( is the enemy engaged in another combat with his guns trailing the other side...)

[BruceRKF]

On 7/14/2021 at 2:13 AM, GarrusBrutus said:

... but her increased DPM makes up for it.

Her increased DPM is exclusively based on the tier 9 module however, without it is identical to Cleveland. Bit more health (plus the heal), slightly better AA plus half a knot of speed is all the advantage she has over Cleveland. Cleveland is stealthier, more maneuverable, has better firing angles, faster turrets and is a smaller target. If you were to give Cleveland a heal and the tier 9 module, I think I would prefer her over Seattle. In fact, a Fargo class ship at tier 9 would be quite nice, now that I think about it.

[BoxOfAngryBees]

9 hours ago, BruceRKF said:

In fact, a Fargo class ship at tier 9 would be quite nice, now that I think about it.

that sparked a synapse in me noggin - I now remember a post talking about this exact same problem neigh 4 years ago, where the split was fresh:
https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/162993-seattle-vs-cleveland-not-a-tier-better/

pretty much the same grumblings as from me and others - subtract the posts speaking of experience, of course, because they were new then

 

edit:
yeah, back then the izumo was trash xD

ye olden times x)