Citadel mechanic

[yagron_the_real]

Cruisers and battleships, so the classes with citadels, as we all know, can take huge amount of damage in one salvo, if the stars align for the enemy player (showing broadside, or being overmatched). On the other hand, destroyers have no citadels, and while they can also take excessive amount of damage in a single salvo, in my findings it's a noticeably less common occurrence (multiple cruiser SAP hits, or a lot of HE pens). So I'd argue, that DDs are less prone to devstrikes than bigger ships (especially cruisers). Do you think it's good as it is, or some adjustments would make the balance better? Discuss! 

Also don't take it as a "Nerf this, buff that! Immediately!" sort of thread I'm just interested what others think.

[bakmaita]

DD's already end up being most focus fired ships in game with lowest HP pool and worst survival rate.

They once had a citadel, which was removed for a good reason.

[Srle_Vigilante]

9 minutes ago, yagron_the_real said:

in my findings

Would you mind sharing your findings here online?
 

Also I do not agree,  DDs by far are the most squishy and targeted class in the game.

Survivability is not measured by the amount of Dev strikes the class has received.

 

 

[Sink_Different]

18 minutes ago, yagron_the_real said:

Cruisers and battleships, so the classes with citadels ....in my findings

CVs too have citadel.

So much for the quality of your "research".

For deeper answers see above.

[ColonelPete]

23 minutes ago, yagron_the_real said:

Cruisers and battleships, so the classes with citadels, as we all know, can take huge amount of damage in one salvo, if the stars align for the enemy player (showing broadside, or being overmatched). On the other hand, destroyers have no citadels, and while they can also take excessive amount of damage in a single salvo, in my findings it's a noticeably less common occurrence (multiple cruiser SAP hits, or a lot of HE pens). So I'd argue, that DDs are less prone to devstrikes than bigger ships (especially cruisers). Do you think it's good as it is, or some adjustments would make the balance better? Discuss! 

Also don't take it as a "Nerf this, buff that! Immediately!" sort of thread I'm just interested what others think.

It is good as it is, as most DD do not have armor and would get citadelled all the time.

HE, SAP, planes and torps are already deadly enough. DD have the lowest survivalrating in game.

[Echo_519]

Maybe if Wg did fix the bug where He shells can overpen(yes, HE shells actually do overpen quite often, despite not being able to overpen by design.) more DD's would take huge damage salvos....

[Pandafaust]

12 minutes ago, Echo_519 said:

Maybe if Wg did fix the bug where He shells can overpen(yes, HE shells actually do overpen quite often, despite not being able to overpen by design.) more DD's would take huge damage salvos....

Am I the only person who hasnt seen or heard anything about HE overpens? Have you got any screenshots of it happening?

[Animalul2012]

Dont think dds need survivability nerfs. They had citadels and could eat 283mm ap full pens in the past and it was not pleasant. Nowadays they tend to get focused as soon as they are spoted. After hp of some destroyers drops below 50%(notably gun boat destroyers) theyre impact starts to drop,now they have to take risky plays that could end up in losing the ship. Also a one shot gun boat is next to useless while a one shot shimakaze/halland is still a pain the [edited]. 

Another thing to note is that the game has been dumbed down...back in the days beight caught broadside resulted in dead or coma. Missoury/montana/Iowa broadside Oh boy my tirpitz is going to enjoy that. Nowadays? Iowa/montana underwater trolly citadel, new dutch cruisers with underwater citadels,american light cruisers with almost below waterline citadel and a very small one.

[Figment]

1 hour ago, yagron_the_real said:

Cruisers and battleships, so the classes with citadels, as we all know, can take huge amount of damage in one salvo, if the stars align for the enemy player (showing broadside, or being overmatched). On the other hand, destroyers have no citadels, and while they can also take excessive amount of damage in a single salvo, in my findings it's a noticeably less common occurrence (multiple cruiser SAP hits, or a lot of HE pens). So I'd argue, that DDs are less prone to devstrikes than bigger ships (especially cruisers). Do you think it's good as it is, or some adjustments would make the balance better? Discuss! 

Also don't take it as a "Nerf this, buff that! Immediately!" sort of thread I'm just interested what others think.

If you ever pointed a Thunderer's HE at a DD and hit, you'll notice that halfing or instakilling isn't an uncommon process.

 

Many DDs also can die to a single torpedo, depending what torp it is.

[yagron_the_real]

2 hours ago, Srle_Vigilante said:

Would you mind sharing your findings here online?
 

Also I do not agree,  DDs by far are the most squishy and targeted class in the game.

Survivability is not measured by the amount of Dev strikes the class has received.

 

 

I play a lot of cruisers and recently started plating more destroyers, and I was pleasantly surprised with how much open water gunboating I can get away with. I agree, focus fire can result in sudden sinking, but in randoms and even ranked it is often missing...

2 hours ago, Sink_Different said:

CVs too have citadel.

So much for the quality of your "research".

For deeper answers see above.

I am aware that carriers have citadels, thank you. However they participate somewhat less often in artillery duels...

 

 

I agree with you, I don't think giving destroyers citadels is a remotely good idea. Maybe increasing the overpen damage percentage? Just an idea.

[Profilus]

17 minutes ago, yagron_the_real said:

more destroyers, and I was pleasantly surprised with how much open water gunboating I can get away with

 

I would not call it "getting away with" open water gunboating

 

[yagron_the_real]

2 minutes ago, Profilus said:

 

I would not call it "getting away with" open water gunboating

 

I have not claimed I am very good at playing destroyers 🙂. But please show me how my personal winrate in destroyers correlate with how destroyers in general can survive certain game situations

[Profilus]

10 minutes ago, yagron_the_real said:

I have not claimed I am very good at playing destroyers 🙂. But please show me how my personal winrate in destroyers correlate with how destroyers in general can survive certain game situations

Why ppl always look wr? You said you get away with gunning open water, but you dont because your damage is too low to support that claim.

[yagron_the_real]

46 minutes ago, Profilus said:

Why ppl always look wr? You said you get away with gunning open water, but you dont because your damage is too low to support that claim.

This is getting further and further from the original topic, but I'm bored so I'll bite. 

So on a couple occasions, when I was in the Vasteras (well respected gunboat with 4 guns, 7.5 s reload iirc), I opened up open water, and even though I initially expected to be quickly sunk, to my delight usually I only took chip damage. I also saw friendly and enemy destroyers take surprisingly little damage in an encounter when they were spotted.

This prompted this topic. 

[Pukovnik7]

4 minutes ago, yagron_the_real said:

This is getting further and further from the original topic, but I'm bored so I'll bite. 

So on a couple occasions, when I was in the Vasteras (well respected gunboat with 4 guns, 7.5 s reload iirc), I opened up open water, and even though I initially expected to be quickly sunk, to my delight usually I only took chip damage. I also saw friendly and enemy destroyers take surprisingly little damage in an encounter when they were spotted.

This prompted this topic. 

That is mostly because destroyers are hard to hit to begin with. I have shot at destroyers from 10 - 20 km in my battleship when there was nothing else available to shoot, and hitting is basically impossible if destroyer player is paying any attention. Giving them a citadel would not change this, though it would make an occasional lucky hit more dangerous.

[xe_N_on]

Vor 8 Stunden, yagron_the_real sagte:

Cruisers and battleships, so the classes with citadels, as we all know, can take huge amount of damage in one salvo, if the stars align for the enemy player (showing broadside, or being overmatched). On the other hand, destroyers have no citadels, and while they can also take excessive amount of damage in a single salvo, in my findings it's a noticeably less common occurrence (multiple cruiser SAP hits, or a lot of HE pens). So I'd argue, that DDs are less prone to devstrikes than bigger ships (especially cruisers). Do you think it's good as it is, or some adjustments would make the balance better? Discuss! 

Also don't take it as a "Nerf this, buff that! Immediately!" sort of thread I'm just interested what others think.

Stats show that the survivability rate of DDs is already the lowest of all ship classes, even without having a citadel. 

 

So, apparently your individual perception is wrong.

 

 

[159Hunter]

4 hours ago, yagron_the_real said:

This is getting further and further from the original topic, but I'm bored so I'll bite. 

So on a couple occasions, when I was in the Vasteras (well respected gunboat with 4 guns, 7.5 s reload iirc), I opened up open water, and even though I initially expected to be quickly sunk, to my delight usually I only took chip damage. I also saw friendly and enemy destroyers take surprisingly little damage in an encounter when they were spotted.

This prompted this topic. 

So your personal experience in DDs prompted this topic. Yet the abysmal results yielded by the same experience are not valid in this discussion?

 

[Miscommunication_dept]

7 hours ago, Pandafaust said:

Am I the only person who hasnt seen or heard anything about HE overpens? Have you got any screenshots of it happening?

Maybe he is referring to damage to saturated sections?

[Cyclops_]

Far to many variables in hitting a DD over 10k away, rng, shell arc, AP or AP. A kiting DD is hard to hit, a broadside DD is easier to hit etc, etc, etc.

[Miscommunication_dept]

4 hours ago, Pukovnik7 said:

That is mostly because destroyers are hard to hit to begin with. I have shot at destroyers from 10 - 20 km in my battleship when there was nothing else available to shoot, and hitting is basically impossible if destroyer player is paying any attention. Giving them a citadel would not change this, though it would make an occasional lucky hit more dangerous.

I killed an Asashio the other day from 21km. Of course he was straight lining and the stars aligned but it just shows it’s worth a try.

[Figment]

7 hours ago, Pukovnik7 said:

That is mostly because destroyers are hard to hit to begin with. I have shot at destroyers from 10 - 20 km in my battleship when there was nothing else available to shoot, and hitting is basically impossible if destroyer player is paying any attention. Giving them a citadel would not change this, though it would make an occasional lucky hit more dangerous.

Aim three lengths ahead and usually that would be a good 4-12K damage per BB salvo. Since DDs operate near enemy front line, a few of those volleys from various ships and it is over. Hence why radar ships with 10-12km range are so effective as some DDs have to get within 7km to even launch torps effectively or have just 10km ballistic range.

 

The gunboating can be done, especially with Kleber, Elbing, Marceau, Blyska, Mogador, or Friesland, but circumstance must call for it. Too much exposure and you easily are overcommitted. Especially around radar ships.

[Pukovnik7]

5 hours ago, gopher31 said:

I killed an Asashio the other day from 21km. Of course he was straight lining and the stars aligned but it just shows it’s worth a try.

 

2 hours ago, Figment said:

Aim three lengths ahead and usually that would be a good 4-12K damage per BB salvo. Since DDs operate near enemy front line, a few of those volleys from various ships and it is over. Hence why radar ships with 10-12km range are so effective as some DDs have to get within 7km to even launch torps effectively or have just 10km ballistic range.

  

The gunboating can be done, especially with Kleber, Elbing, Marceau, Blyska, Mogador, or Friesland, but circumstance must call for it. Too much exposure and you easily are overcommitted. Especially around radar ships.

That is why I wrote, if destroyer player is paying attention. Granted, I still have difficulty with landing long-range shots even on battleships on occasion, but what I was referring to is the fact that if player is paying attention, such salvos can be avoided even in a battleship, let alone a destroyer. I actually do that myself quite often - that incoming fire alert skill can be awesome, but I've done it without it as well.

 

Of course, throw enough sh*t at the wall and some of it will stick, so getting focus-fired isn't healthy even for a destroyer that is paying attention...

[Figment]

5 hours ago, Pukovnik7 said:

 

That is why I wrote, if destroyer player is paying attention. Granted, I still have difficulty with landing long-range shots even on battleships on occasion, but what I was referring to is the fact that if player is paying attention, such salvos can be avoided even in a battleship, let alone a destroyer. I actually do that myself quite often - that incoming fire alert skill can be awesome, but I've done it without it as well.

 

Of course, throw enough sh*t at the wall and some of it will stick, so getting focus-fired isn't healthy even for a destroyer that is paying attention...

Aiming for DD in a turn us easy though, hold fire till you know its rudder os committed.

[FukushuNL]

@OP I understand where you came from, but your experience is waaaaay too limited to warrent a change in DD survivability. What you see as DDs surviving remarkably easy is just wrong focus of the opposite party. Yes, there are DDs that can do open water gunboating more easy, sometimes very easily (saying this from personal experience with the RN DDs), but most of the time that is the DD captain chosing the right moment for it with occupied and not many adversaries. Or the enemy just doesn't seem to care enough to focus on the DD.

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

Wouldn't mind seeing a slight nerf to DD survivability if the baby class didn't exist.