Suggestion for European Cruiser Line

[capt_and]

We need an european cruiser line, so I decided to propose one:

 

 

European Cruiser Line:

-Tier I: ORP Gryf (Already in game)

-Tier II: SMS Admiral Spaun

-Tier III: SMS Helgoland

-Tier IV: SMS Ersatz Zenta

-Tier V: RHS Antinavarhos Kontouriotis

-Tier VI: RHS Elli

-Tier VII: HSwMS Tre Kronor

-Tier VIII: HSwMS Gota Lejon (1953)

-Tier IX: Baleares

-Tier X: Canarias (1960)

https://www.naval-encyclopedia.com/ww1/Austria-Hungary/k-u-k-kriegsmarine/

https://www.naval-encyclopedia.com/ww2/swedish-navy

https://www.naval-encyclopedia.com/ww2/spain/armada

https://www.naval-encyclopedia.com/ww2/polish-navy

The cruiser line is composed by Austro-Hungarian ships at tier II-III-IV, Polish ships at tier I, Swedish ships at tier VII-VIII, Greek ships at tier V-VI.

These ships can only fire HE and SAP shells (no AP), they have good range (17Km at tier X), rate of fire and flat trajectory, but the number of guns and their caliber are not the greatest. Their AA suit is among the most powerful ones in the game, and can be further enhanced by the Defensive AA Fire consumable available from tier 6, which has a shorter cooldown time and an infinite number of charges. Every ship in the tech tree, besides from Tier VI HSwMS Fylgja, has a torpedo armament which, like European Destroyers, features fast, long range, low damage torpedoes. The armor layout of these ships is very good for light cruisers, but cannot compete with heavy or large cruisers, and like the HP is very similar to british light cruisers. Speed and maneuverability are very good, almost every ship has a speed of around 30-33 knots and the turning circle is small for a cruiser, the concealment values are average. The consumables are the standard ones for a cruiser, besides from the infinite quick reload short burst DF-AA the ships posses a very good Hydroacoustic Search consumable with 5Km ship detection at tier X, a short burst Repair Party from tier IV (similar to EU DDs).

The role of these cruisers is to contest capture points and give AA fire support to allied ships, they are especially very good at supporting destroyers in their many roles. Historically many ships were meant to operate as destroyer flotilla leaders, which is the role they have to assume in game.

 

*I tried to not include paper ships, but probably there are many of them out there.

 

[Aragathor]

So the line has a total of 5 gimmicks? SAP, infinite DefAA, improved Hydro, short burst Heal, Radar.

That's a yikes! for me buddy.

 

Spoiler

 

While the ship line up is nice, the general characteristics of the line put the ships into the "aw, hell no!" category.

 

Besides WG will come up with their own line that will suck donkey balls and be boring and under-powered AF.

 

[ColonelPete]

NO SAP! At least not in its current form.

[totally_potato]

30 minutes ago, capt_and said:

We need an european cruiser line, so I decided to propose one:

 

 

 

European Cruiser Line:

-Tier I: ORP Gryf (Already in game)

-Tier II: SMS Admiral Spaun

-Tier III: SMS Helgoland

-Tier IV: SMS Ersatz Zenta

-Tier V: ORP Dragon

-Tier VI: HSwMS Fylgja

-Tier VII: HSwMS Tre Kronor

-Tier VIII: HSwMS Gota Lejon 

-Tier IX: Baleares

-Tier X: Canarias (1960)

https://www.naval-encyclopedia.com/ww1/Austria-Hungary/k-u-k-kriegsmarine/

https://www.naval-encyclopedia.com/ww2/swedish-navy

https://www.naval-encyclopedia.com/ww2/spain/armada

https://www.naval-encyclopedia.com/ww2/polish-navy

The cruiser line is composed by Austro-Hungarian ships at tier II-III-IV, Polish ships at tier I-V, Swedish ships at tier VI-VII-VIII and Spanish ships at tier IX and X.

These ships can only fire HE and SAP shells (no AP), they have good range (17Km at tier X), rate of fire and flat trajectory, but the number of guns and their caliber are not the greatest. Their AA suit is among the most powerful ones in the game, and can be further enhanced by the Defensive AA Fire consumable available from tier 6, which has a shorter cooldown time and an infinite number of charges. Every ship in the tech tree, besides from Tier VI HSwMS Fylgja, has a torpedo armament which, like European Destroyers, features fast, long range, low damage torpedoes. The armor layout of these ships is very good for light cruisers, but cannot compete with heavy or large cruisers, and like the HP is very similar to british light cruisers. Speed and maneuverability are very good, almost every ship has a speed of around 30-33 knots and the turning circle is small for a cruiser, the concealment values are average. The consumables are the standard ones for a cruiser, besides from the infinite quick reload DF-AA the ships posses a very good Hydroacoustic Search consumable with 6Km ship detection at tier X, a short burst Repair Party from tier IV (similar to EU DDs), and from tier VIII they also receive a decent Radar consumable (8Km-20s at tier X).

The role of these cruisers is to contest capture points and give AA fire support to allied ships, they are especially very good at supporting destroyers in their many roles. Historically many ships were meant to operate as destroyer flotilla leaders, which is the role they have to assume in game.

 

*I tried to not include paper ships, but probably there are many of them out there.

 

Very nice line but too many gimmicks

 

Hell no to 6km hydro (what's the point of German cruisers if you do that). Not SAP. AP is fine. Make it good AP. We have enough HE ships in the game. The infinite DFAA could be short duration (15 secs max), short cooldown with the infinite or large number of charges. You can put torps on the T6 for the sake of the line. Maybe 2x3s??

Repair party is fine. My idea for the radar could be short range (8 km) but very long duration (maybe 60 seconds) with standard number of charges and reload time. 

 

There we have a good line

[doerhoff_damian]

Tier 1: Small Patroll Ship like Gryf

Tier 2: SMS Admiral Spaun

Tier 3: Novarra Class (z.B SMS Helgoland)

Tier 4: SMS Ersatz-Zenta

Tier 5: Almirante Cervera Class

Tier 6: Canarias Class

[fumtu]

1 hour ago, capt_and said:

-Tier VII: HSwMS Tre Kronor

 

-Tier VIII: HSwMS Gota Lejon

 

So two ships from the same class at consecutive tiers? What is a point, especially as there was no significant difference between two.

 

1 hour ago, capt_and said:

-Tier IX: Baleares

-Tier X: Canarias (1960)

 

Spain has enough ships to be separate nation in the game, just like Netherlands. But anyway ... not sure if those two ships you proposed are Canarias heavy cruisers. If they are they are too high. T8 is the highest they could bee, but T6-T7 is probably more fitting.

 

T9 and T10, maybe even T8 would need to be paper ships or pure WG imagination. Probably both.

 

1 hour ago, capt_and said:

... and from tier VIII they also receive a decent Radar consumable (8Km-20s at tier X).

 

How about no to radar. There is already too much radar in the game.

 

28 minutes ago, totally_potato said:

My idea for the radar could be short range (8 km) but very long duration (maybe 60 seconds) with standard number of charges and reload time.

 

Hell no.

[Yedwy]

@OP I wont go into the choice of ships themselves but That’s is s lot of gimmicks and we dont need more radar in the Game…

 

i d say - normal DCP, normal RP for all of them through the line same as RN CLS have is suffitient, standard hydro and maybe DFAA in a separate slot (no need for special kind) and that only if AA is worth a damn im the first place and maybe it can be exchanged for a spotter Plane otherwise…

 

Other then that normal HE/AP choice is fine, individual Shell ma can be tweaked as needbe

[invicta2012]

I like the idea of a smaller line of DD leaders but I'm not sure whether this line is it. With the Dutch large cruisers and De Zeven Provincien having been used in their line there doesn't seem to be much left for another European cruiser line at higher Tiers. If you take actual DD leaders, though, and there's plenty - perhaps ending up with Tromp at Tier IX (similar era to Mogador) and some improved version of that at X?

 

 

 

[capt_and]

55 minuti fa, fumtu ha scritto:

So two ships from the same class at consecutive tiers? What is a point, especially as there was no significant difference between two.

For the Gota Lejon I was thinking at the 1953 model, with improoved AA, and better electronics, and also an increase in rof.

 

57 minuti fa, fumtu ha scritto:

T8 is the highest they could bee, but T6-T7 is probably more fitting.

The thing is that would be better to have a linear increase in gun caliber and number, putting them at t6 results in a jump from 152mm to 203mm to then get back down to 152mm again, and a gun number from 6 to 8 to 7 which is quite unbalanced.

1 ora fa, fumtu ha scritto:

How about no to radar. There is already too much radar in the game.

Yeah I agree, it was just to have some more gymmich, but at the end after a bit more thinking is better without it.

 

1 ora fa, totally_potato ha scritto:

Make it good AP.

The thing is that these ships are mainly to be used against DDs and CLs which are the ships that usually hunt destroyers and contest caps, SAP and HE are better to destroy these types of ships.

 

As seems from this image below the 203 of the canarias and baleares are DP guns, is it possible for such a caliber?

[fumtu]

6 minutes ago, capt_and said:

For the Gota Lejon I was thinking at the 1953 model, with improoved AA, and better electronics, and also an increase in rof.

 

What better electronics means in WoWs? Those are same ships so ... no chance that they would be used for two tiers, not to mention that Kroner is to small for T8.

 

6 minutes ago, capt_and said:

The thing is that would be better to have a linear increase in gun caliber and number, putting them at t6 results in a jump from 152mm to 203mm to then get back down to 152mm again, and a gun number from 6 to 8 to 7 which is quite unbalanced.

 

I understand logic but Canarias is to small for T9/T10. Even at T8 there were more modern and bigger ships.

[RossijskijAxisFlot]

the EU line should fire LGBTQ+ confettis, +75% damage to "mmmmmmmmuuuuuh fascist" ships. 

[NobleRipper]

6 minutes ago, capt_and said:

As seems from this image below the 203 of the canarias and baleares are DP guns, is it possible for such a caliber?

They were indeed DP mounts, as with the 8" guns on the rest of the earlier County-class variants (everything before the Norfolks if I recall correctly); the turrets allowed elevation of up to 80 degrees although experience in service showed that trying to use that size of gun against aircraft was pretty futile. Then again, there were beehive rounds for bigger guns (battleship-calibre), so apparently naval planners weren't too worried about practicality...

[EpicGoldenCat]

yes i can read this

https://prnt.sc/18k6fwb

 

nice formatting

[capt_and]

19 minuti fa, fumtu ha scritto:

What better electronics means in WoWs? Those are same ships so ... no chance that they would be used for two tiers, not to mention that Kroner is to small for T8.

Also Edinburgh and Fiji are essentially the same ship, and one has some better stats than the other so...

Better elctronics means for example better hydro, and more accuracy and range, and possibly higher rof.

Also, always using fiji and edinburgh for comparison, these 2 british light cruisers have 12 guns and 114mm of armor, where the tre kronor have 7 guns and 130mm of armor, so they are worst in some aspects, but they are better in other, another example is that the tre kronor has no secondary battery but better AA but for fiji and edinburgh is the opposite.

[totally_potato]

1 hour ago, capt_and said:

The thing is that these ships are mainly to be used against DDs and CLs which are the ships that usually hunt destroyers and contest caps, SAP and HE are better to destroy these types of ships.

 

As seems from this image below the 203 of the canarias and baleares are DP guns, is it possible for such a caliber?

look at Elbing (spahkruzer) and give me your conclusion

[totally_potato]

1 hour ago, NobleSauvage said:

Then again, there were beehive rounds for bigger guns (battleship-calibre), so apparently naval planners weren't too worried about practicality...

I remember reading an article saying that Yamato guns were dual purpose. Care to share some light on that

[fumtu]

41 minutes ago, capt_and said:

Better elctronics means for example better hydro, and more accuracy and range, and possibly higher rof.

 

Sorry, but that is not how this game works. Hydro is always the same, only difference is range and duration. For WG better electronics mean jack sh*t, only thing that matters are tier and nation and how they want to balance it.

 

Quote

Also, always using fiji and edinburgh for comparison, these 2 british light cruisers have 12 guns and 114mm of armor, where the tre kronor have 7 guns and 130mm of armor, so they are worst in some aspects, but they are better in other, another example is that the tre kronor has no secondary battery but better AA but for fiji and edinburgh is the opposite.

 

Those are two different classes of cruisers. One one of them, Edinburgh, is significantly bigger than the other one, Fiji. Edin and Belfast are even bigger than their other "sister" ships of Town class. Don't just count number of guns, ships are much more than just that. For WG everything matter, unless they think that it doesn't matter. So no ... Tre Kronor and Gota Lejon can't be on two respective tiers and Kronor class can't be T8.

[totally_potato]

2 hours ago, fumtu said:

Hell no

I mean I would agree with you on no radar. But the Euro DDs in testing had radar. And this guy wants radar in his line. 

So introducing a short range long duration radar isn't the worst idea (not saying its the best coz the whole concept of radar is weird, but then again it kept the DDs from getting as OP af). Coz 8km isn't even that far, so you can avoid it. The offset is probably very long cooldown. Not spotter amount of ridiculous but close. So you can sit outside of 8km detecting the ship, and once radar is over (if you can count that is), just go back in and murder it. More of a cap contest/self defense radar than an offensive one of the Russians where the crew shoots potato guns in all directions and if they hit something its detected.

[totally_potato]

46 minutes ago, capt_and said:

Better elctronics means for example better hydro, and more accuracy and range, and possibly higher rof.

yeah radar for that probably

Problem is that this is a game not a simulator, so better hydro becoz better electronics means jackshit

[WWDragon]

5 minutes ago, totally_potato said:

I remember reading an article saying that Yamato guns were dual purpose. Care to share some light on that

No, they werent ... there was a specific type of shell for multiple calibers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Shiki_(anti-aircraft_shell)

.

 

[fumtu]

4 minutes ago, totally_potato said:

I mean I would agree with you on no radar. But the Euro DDs in testing had radar.

 

What kind of argument is that? Pan Asian DDs have both radar and smoke in testing, RN BBs had radar in tasting so were SU BBs, just a gimmicky one. So that would mean ..... what exactly?

 

4 minutes ago, totally_potato said:

So introducing a short range long duration radar isn't the worst idea (not saying its the best coz the whole concept of radar is weird, but then again it kept the DDs from getting as OP af).

 

Maybe not THE WORST, but among the worst for sure.

 

 

 

 

 

[invicta2012]

53 minutes ago, fumtu said:

So no ... Tre Kronor and Gota Lejon can't be on two respective tiers and Kronor class can't be T8.

Mysore and Fiji can, though. 

 

(I actually think the CL line is a dead-end for a European alt-cruiser tree - you would want to find a way to move to CAs with the Caniaras class at Tier VII - which could work in the same way that the "improved County" Surrey does, and then perhaps look to make some larger calibre cruisers using coastal defence tech (Sweden and Finland were using 10 inch guns, firing every 15 seconds,in coastal defence ships in the 1940s, and there were plans for 12 inch gunned ships of that sort which might be viable). 

[fumtu]

5 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

Mysore and Fiji can, though.

 

I would guess that one of them is a premium ... and one of them could be represented in different form ... I don't know ... maybe like post war modification/modernization .... am I close?

[NobleRipper]

1 hour ago, totally_potato said:

I remember reading an article saying that Yamato guns were dual purpose. Care to share some light on that

What @WWDragon said. Guns being dual-purpose (that is, able to engage surface and air targets from the same mount; the term HALA (High-Angle/Low-Angle) comes up in relation, often specifically with regard to fire directors) is usually a factor of how high they can elevate rather than ammo type. Best I can find with a quick search on Yammie's main battery is that they had a 45-degree elevation, which is ideal for long-range naval engagements and shore bombardment but I think at least 70 was usually considered necessary (if barely adequate) for AA work.

[totally_potato]

5 hours ago, NobleSauvage said:

What @WWDragon said. Guns being dual-purpose (that is, able to engage surface and air targets from the same mount; the term HALA (High-Angle/Low-Angle) comes up in relation, often specifically with regard to fire directors) is usually a factor of how high they can elevate rather than ammo type. Best I can find with a quick search on Yammie's main battery is that they had a 45-degree elevation, which is ideal for long-range naval engagements and shore bombardment but I think at least 70 was usually considered necessary (if barely adequate) for AA work.

huh that article was actually jack crap

Oh well. 

Yeah but regarding Yamato weren't there som AA guns which had special AA shells that exploded in front of planes with shrapnel killing them where concept was dope but practically it was crap?