bizzy - almost nothing but overpenns (!?)

[BoxOfAngryBees]

So I just played a game in my bizzy (I enjoy the ship, really like the secondary brawling aspect. There are better ships but the bizzy kinda grew on me). Playing the game though, i got nothing but overpenns ... Broadside amagi waterline shots? overpenn (funny, me in my amagi would never survive broadside shots like that). Turret citadel shot? overpenn. Almost angled hipper? Deck overpenn. Lepanto? overpenns ....

Of 24 shots, i got 17 overpenns, as opposed to 2 penns and 5 riccochets/shatters.

 

What gives? 380mm is not a big gun- specifically not in a t9 match but I may as well have been shooting HE, would have had more damage done by the end. Does the bizzy have a longer AP fuse? whats going on here?

[arttuperkunas]

Well, they are somewhat high velocity, so probably more likely to overpen then, say, American rifles? That said, there are ships with much higher velocity guns at that tier (French, Italian ships), so I don't think the Bismarck is as such much more prone to overpenning than any other T8 BB.

[Gnomus]

This is because WG is unable to make system where overpenning citadel would be something else than overpen.

 

Logic must be that shells making holes in steam engines, boilers, powder and shell storage are mostly harmless.

 

Making citadel overpen worth regular penetration would already fix most of the problem. Currently there are situations where cruisers are safer by fully exposing their side to BB (only overpens) than trying to angle (penetrating hits and citadels).

[BoxOfAngryBees]

If i was shooting through the bow, stern or superstructure ok - but not through the waterline of a fuggin amagi or the side of a 45° hipper at mid range.

[arttuperkunas]

18 minutes ago, BoxOfAngryBees said:

If i was shooting through the bow, stern or superstructure ok - but not through the waterline of a fuggin amagi or the side of a 45° hipper at mid range.

What can I say, except "it isn't supposed to happen"? :P Maybe the shells got deflected off the main belt and penned a softer part of the ship or something? Or else we're in weird bug territory.

[BoxOfAngryBees]

44 minutes ago, arttuperkunas said:

What can I say, except "it isn't supposed to happen"? :P Maybe the shells got deflected off the main belt and penned a softer part of the ship or something? Or else we're in weird bug territory.

Tis all in the right i suppose, simply thought there would be a good reason.

 

The hipper has turtleback but that wasnt necessarily relevant in that shot of mine i dont think - but hitting the ship at a 45° angle at 12km and basically having the shell pass through half the ship and not arming is infuriating.

The amagi also has turtleback, but its under the waterline. I was point blank and im firing through the overwater torp belt (32mm) and through the deck armor (top half 32 and bottom half 254) and in both cases, my shells should have armed - but nope.

Its simply beyond the pale for me ... if I was in that amagi, I would have been devastated by that - and every now and then I have been on the other side with consistent results.

 

I suppose im simply venting ... I dont see the forums flooded with my kind of problem so .... gah, probably some obscure b*llsh*te i dont know of etc.

 

If yall got nothin to do, heres the replay, maybe Its completely unjustified and Im a boinker ... 

https://replayswows.com/replay/134736#stats

[Pururut]

2 hours ago, BoxOfAngryBees said:

Almost angled hipper? Deck overpen

You are not penetrating through the deck of an Admiral Hipper with your 380mm guns unless you are firing from max range. As for the upper belt; the ships citadel is very low so most of your shots will either overpen 27mm plating or bounce off if it is angled. Even if you attack from mid to long range where the shell dips enough it still will hit the 30mm citadel deck, bounce up and likely explode inside upper belt resulting in a penetration at best. You need 406mm and above guns to reliably deal with a Hipper. 

 

2 hours ago, BoxOfAngryBees said:

Broadside amagi waterline shots? overpenn (funny, me in my amagi would never survive broadside shots like that)

Okay this is really weird. My bet is on poor connection or more likely very bad luck with dispersion. Your shots probably strayed a lot and hit the 32mm upper plating or fore/aft. For the latter part of your sentence there is a solution. Dont do hard turns in your Amagi while you are broadside while at low to medium ranges. The turn makes the ship roll which lifts your turtleback citadel, exposing it. 

[Humorpalanta]

Well, Amagi is known for overpenning a lot. I know people who like the ship but I just never could get the hang of it. So yeah IJN ships tend to have BIG guns. Or at least it was the case originally before the WeeGee curse came...

[BoxOfAngryBees]

34 minutes ago, Humorpalanta said:

Well, Amagi is known for overpenning a lot. I know people who like the ship but I just never could get the hang of it. So yeah IJN ships tend to have BIG guns. Or at least it was the case originally before the WeeGee curse came...

talkin bout shooting at an amagi in a bizzy, not the other way round ^^

 

37 minutes ago, Pururut said:

Okay this is really weird. My bet is on poor connection or more likely very bad luck with dispersion. Your shots probably strayed a lot and hit the 32mm upper plating or fore/aft.

My inet connection is supreme - i rarely have a ping of over 30ms ... that cant be the problem.

 

here are a few screenies I just made:

 

The top one and the right one I can accept as an overpenn (but is the right one really an overpenn? remember, these are 380 guns ...) but the bottom one? how is that an overpenn? either it splodes in the deck or it penns the barbette - but nope, its an overpenn - straight through the barbette armor.

 

 

Second amagi shot - the top right is the riccochet - but overpenn on the other three?! Remember, these are 380 guns, not 460s.

 

The top left is fine - but bottom right? That should miss the turtleback and splode somewhere inside. Besides, just look at the angle on that! Its going through a third of the ship before it exits out the other side .... which it has to because >over<penn.

 

Can yall discern anything here? those shots should have been, imho, penns - if not even a citadel barbette penn on that one shot.

[totally_potato]

Well that's hilarious

That never happens to me tho. This is one of those ships in fact where I got more pens than overpens.

Ig WG coding is trash, or maybe desync. Idk, neither do I care at this point coz a lot of crap is going on that is just breaking my mind

[BoxOfAngryBees]

41 minutes ago, totally_potato said:

Idk, neither do I care at this point coz a lot of crap is going on that is just breaking my mind

if yer talkin wedgie mind breakage, your not alone ....

 

its quite a sad state when wedgies b*llsh*t is so bad that things like this (which is quite game-breaking) are almost funny in comparison ... in any other online game this would be a big problem.

[BoxOfAngryBees]

This isnt even unprecedented - I remember waaay back in the day that after a patch, a bug existed that made citadels get valued and showed up as overpens. There was, back then when wedgie actually gave a flyin f*ck, outrage and wedgie fixed it relatively quickly - now, though .... not gonna bet on them wasting resources in actually fixing their game.

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

Share replay? Did you check the ribbon with the actual damage? 

 

From the screenshots it is somewhat difficult to tell whether you missed the turtleback lolz... Did you check on the armor viewer whether your shells could possibly arm on the plating you hit?

 

EDIT: Bismarck has standard fuse time.

[redraven]

5 hours ago, Gnomus said:

This is because WG is unable to make system where overpenning citadel would be something else than overpen.

 

Logic must be that shells making holes in steam engines, boilers, powder and shell storage are mostly harmless.

 

Making citadel overpen worth regular penetration would already fix most of the problem. Currently there are situations where cruisers are safer by fully exposing their side to BB (only overpens) than trying to angle (penetrating hits and citadels).

I have been saying this for about 3-4 years nows. Its simply ridiculous. Parts that WG themselves describe as "the most important, crucial parts of the ship" having half meter wide holes do "minimal damage" (overpen).

[BoxOfAngryBees]

18 minutes ago, LemonadeWarriorITA said:

Share replay? Did you check the ribbon with the actual damage? 

 

From the screenshots it is somewhat difficult to tell whether you missed the turtleback lolz... Did you check on the armor viewer whether your shells could possibly arm on the plating you hit?

 

EDIT: Bismarck has standard fuse time.

 

3 hours ago, BoxOfAngryBees said:

If yall got nothin to do, heres the replay, maybe Its completely unjustified and Im a boinker ... 

https://replayswows.com/replay/134736#stats

 

[BoxOfAngryBees]

 

this was the popup after the battle

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

20 minutes ago, BoxOfAngryBees said:

 

 

The turtleback armour on both ships (Amagi has sloped citadel armour) is ricocheting your shells into the air, causing them to explode outside of the ship = overpenetration.

[Ronchabale]

7 hours ago, BoxOfAngryBees said:

So I just played a game in my bizzy (I enjoy the ship, really like the secondary brawling aspect. There are better ships but the bizzy kinda grew on me). Playing the game though, i got nothing but overpenns ... Broadside amagi waterline shots? overpenn (funny, me in my amagi would never survive broadside shots like that). Turret citadel shot? overpenn. Almost angled hipper? Deck overpenn. Lepanto? overpenns ....

Of 24 shots, i got 17 overpenns, as opposed to 2 penns and 5 riccochets/shatters.

 

What gives? 380mm is not a big gun- specifically not in a t9 match but I may as well have been shooting HE, would have had more damage done by the end. Does the bizzy have a longer AP fuse? whats going on here?

Shells ricochet off turtleback and up through superstructure giving damage for the overpen, same goes for the Hipper that also has some turtleback

Aim for the cylindrical turret mounts

 

[BoxOfAngryBees]

3 minutes ago, LemonadeWarriorITA said:

The turtleback armour on both ships is ricocheting your shells into the air, causing them to explode outside of the ship = overpenetration.

But that cant be the whole story. Not all the shots went to the turtleback. Specifically on the amagi in the first salvo I definately didnt only hit the turtleback.

Your basically saying that an amagi/hipper is better off showing full broadside at short/med range - and I can personally attest to that being a bad idea in both ships. Like I said, Ive been in a switched situation where I was sitting in a broadside amagi at short range and I always payed for it dearly.

Either that, or your saying that the 380s of the bizzy are specifically in a niche where you simply cannot damage those specific armor profiled ships. Which i equally cannot believe because:

3 hours ago, totally_potato said:

That never happens to me tho. This is one of those ships in fact where I got more pens than overpens.

and beside that fact, other ships with 380s would have the same problem - which they definitely dont.

[BoxOfAngryBees]

19 minutes ago, Ronchabale said:

Shells ricochet off turtleback and up through superstructure giving damage for the overpen, same goes for the Hipper that also has some turtleback

Aim for the cylindrical turret mounts

 

I suppose the shot on the hipper could be attributed to the turtleback .... but the amagi shots are still a problem. Most of those shots where between the turtleback and superstructure right in the side - The deck (32mm torpbelt and 32mm deck) is definitely enough to arm those fuses.

[totally_potato]

10 minutes ago, BoxOfAngryBees said:

and beside that fact, other ships with 380s would have the same problem - which they definitely dont.

eh roma??

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

33 minutes ago, BoxOfAngryBees said:

But that cant be the whole story. Not all the shots went to the turtleback. Specifically on the amagi in the first salvo I definately didnt only hit the turtleback.

Your basically saying that an amagi/hipper is better off showing full broadside at short/med range - and I can personally attest to that being a bad idea in both ships. Like I said, Ive been in a switched situation where I was sitting in a broadside amagi at short range and I always payed for it dearly.

Either that, or your saying that the 380s of the bizzy are specifically in a niche where you simply cannot damage those specific armor profiled ships. Which i equally cannot believe because:

and beside that fact, other ships with 380s would have the same problem - which they definitely dont.

On the first picture you are hitting upper part of the hull, which is 32mm. Somehow I cannot free angle my camera in the viewer, but to fuse your 380mm shells you need a thickness of 380/6 = 63mm. You can calculate yourself whether your angle is sufficient.

 

Amagi and Hipper are better off by angling, because you cannot overmatch the hull of these ships. Also turning your ship changes the angle of the sloped armour, which could make it less effective. 

I am not saying that this is a niche of 380mm guns. I am saying:

1. You hit sloped armour which caused your shells to ricochet into the air = Overpenetration.
2. Your shells didn't arm = Overpenetration.

 

EDIT: If you disagree with me, that's fine. I am just pointing out that what I am seeing are normal game mechanics. I actually do enjoy playing Tirpitz.

 

[Animalul2012]

Shot SAP it does not overpen

[Ronchabale]

1 hour ago, BoxOfAngryBees said:

I suppose the shot on the hipper could be attributed to the turtleback .... but the amagi shots are still a problem. Most of those shots where between the turtleback and superstructure right in the side - The deck (32mm torpbelt and 32mm deck) is definitely enough to arm those fuses.

Dont think WG has every deck, bulkhead or bit of machinery in their hitboxes,  more like empty milk cartons stacked, possibly shots went through and through 

32 mm + 254 + (nothing) + 254 + 32 = 572 mm

at 2 km bis guns pen around 700mm

At any distance below 8 km (if i am reading the pen chart correctly) u risk over pen on 572 mm if the AP has slow fuses

Yeah could be about arming time but it is damn stupid like much of the mechanics in this game

fuse time is 0.033 threshhold 63mm (min thickness for shell to arm) do the math, how fast were the shells going initial velocity 820m/s, how wide was Amagi (LoL ..that never existed) around 30 meters ? (Bis had 36 meter beam)

Take a look at the flight times too, at 820m/s the flight time should be 10 sec for 8200 meters but in game it is around 4 seconds, so...

 

[BoxOfAngryBees]

1 hour ago, LemonadeWarriorITA said:

EDIT: If you disagree with me, that's fine. I am just pointing out that what I am seeing are normal game mechanics. I actually do enjoy playing Tirpitz.

I dont disagree with you - you and ronchabale pointed out quite copiously that the mechanics are such that this nonsense can happen. Disagreeing with mathematics and people who know what their talking about is ... rarely a good idea.

 

I did try to recreate this in the training room, however.

the hipper is indeed quite the cheese, as pointed out. Overpenning it completely but still disabling the guns is fukkin hilarious I suppose but .... well, as ronchabale correctly pointed out - wedgie mechanics b whack yo.

The amagi on the other hand .... nope, couldnt reproduce the overpenns (did a second training room to make sure). If it didnt go into the superstructure, I penned it every time at every distance (variably short, mid and long ranges), or it ploinked off the deck but no overpenns.

 

No idea what happened...

I thought that maybe it was the secondaries ... me and a friedrich were shooting him up with main and secondaries .... perhaps the server couldnt keep up. Being a techy myself, I can imagine the server not correctly calculating or recognizing said hitboxes or penns .... and seeing as how wedgie has already stated that their engine and servers are basically at their limit with how the game is now ....

 

dunno, was quite the mindf_ck when it happened though