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Dante_AK

Starter aka noob friendly/learning dd recomendations.

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I would like to try and play some dds, i did try them when i was starting playing wows, it was bad experience not knowing anything about game and yeah, torping some friendly players.

So are there like in title good starting tech tree lines?

I remember long time ago flamu or flambass saying that german old tech tree line is good cuz its like jack of all trades, not great in anything but also not bad in anything, is it still actual?

So i would pick german one and no clue what should i pick for second line, when one is in battle.

I was checking some other tech tree lines of most played dds in randoms, but some of them dont have smoke at all, are dds without a smoke harder to learn?

Also dds with deepwater torps seems ok. Can they defend themselfs against enemy dds with only guns?  

 

In general im looking something that have smoke, normal torps with some range, and can defend itself against dds, or at least have some chance in 1vs1 dds fight.

I dont want to play shima and similar torp dds with bad guns. Or should i?

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17 minutes ago, Dante_AK said:

I would like to try and play some dds, i did try them when i was starting playing wows, it was bad experience not knowing anything about game and yeah, torping some friendly players.

So are there like in title good starting tech tree lines?

I remember long time ago flamu or flambass saying that german old tech tree line is good cuz its like jack of all trades, not great in anything but also not bad in anything, is it still actual?

So i would pick german one and no clue what should i pick for second line, when one is in battle.

I was checking some other tech tree lines of most played dds in randoms, but some of them dont have smoke at all, are dds without a smoke harder to learn?

Also dds with deepwater torps seems ok. Can they defend themselfs against enemy dds with only guns?  

 

In general im looking something that have smoke, normal torps with some range, and can defend itself against dds, or at least have some chance in 1vs1 dds fight.

I dont want to play shima and similar torp dds with bad guns. Or should i?

Ijn dds are great for learning dd torp basics. Up to Akizuki. The downside is the guns. Slow rate of fire and slow turret traverse. But great torps and great stealth. 
Us dds are good gunboats and user friendly. short range torps up to Mahan, but good allaround dds. 
I would start with those. 
KM dds are as you say ok with most things but suffer from meh torps, guns and detection range. 
RN dds are hard until Lightning due to short range torps and bad concealment. The smoke and hydro saves them. 
Russisns and French are pure gunboats and EU dds are unforgiving due to no smoke and slow speed. 
So I would go with ijn or us. 
 

My 2 cents on the matter. 😊

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German detroyers are splitted:you have the mini light cruisers which I do not recommend for a new player. And the classic ones who lead to z-52. UP to gaede they need to be played as torpedo boats, Maass and z-46 require heavy investment in skills,needs gunther lutjens and a extremely experienced player with balls to get the most out of them. Other wise they are just torpedo boats for the average joe. Z-23 is playable at best unfortunately. 

However I can recommend for a new play the american or british destroyers. Can hold they re own in 1v1 dd fights,good concealment and handling. US ones have better torpedoes especially fletcher and geearing with those 16km torpeodes. UK ones enjoy better detection up to jutland and slighty better ballistics+defensive hydro. They have weaker torpedoes tho. 

Daring and jutland get a heal in a separate slot, however they are quite slow for a destroyer and lack engine boost. Daring and Jutland also come in with improved ap angles.

Lower tier british dd can be frustrating but lighting and daring are top notch.

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As one dd potato to another, uk dds are fun and relatively easy to play. Great cap contesters and knife fighters, good guns, “good enough” concealment and torps, good agility, great smokes, noob friendly battery of consumables.

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On 6/22/2021 at 12:54 PM, Dante_AK said:

In general im looking something that have smoke, normal torps with some range, and can defend itself against dds, or at least have some chance in 1vs1 dds fight.

German or IJN (Harugumo line, mostly).

British as well, but they play at shorter range, usually around caps, which is riskier and requires more finesse, imho.

 

USN DDs have crappy range on their torps until T7. Their smokes are almost too long to be practical and take forever to reload, so they're more for division or team play (Clan Battles). Also, their guns have really poor ballistics and fire chance.

I would not recommend them, they've been powercrept over the years imho.

 

I would also suggest Pan Asian DDs: sure, their torps can't hit other DDs, but they're great against larger enemies because they're only detected at the last moment.

Also, the line has arguably the best smokes: decent duration, decent reload, and 5 charges without upgrades: they're useful for farming large ships, disengaging from DD fights and hide from planes.

 

Keep in mind that no line is completely consistent:

- the Shiratsuyu is in the gunboat line (Harugumo), but she's more of a torpedoboat

- the Jervis has so-so concealment, while the Lightning is excellent in that regard

- same with Mahan vs Benson

- the Z-46 is a lot better than the Z-23, imho

- the Fushun has super slow turrets, the Gadjah Mada is ok, but from the Hsienyang onward they turn on a dime

- etc.

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Learn the USN DD line. Then you'll be set for learning every other line. The USN DD line is a jack of all trades master of none line. With some great ships throughout. Clemson, Nicholas and Farragut are all great low tier DD's. Mahan is balanced. Benson is solid. Fletcher is a gem. Gearing always reilaible. 

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If you want an easy line, the US or RN destroyers can be pretty forgiving, as can the main (old) German line.

 

If you want to really learn how to play destroyers well, play the Euro line: no smoke, so you have to learn map awareness and positioning; slow-loading and -rotating guns, so you have to learn how to make every shot count; fast-reloading torps with pathetic damage, so you get plenty of practice in aiming torps; they don't work very well without quite a few captain skills but there are several areas you can potentially invest in, so you get practice with planning out your commander builds. Just beware that they get a lot slower from T7, and the heal is a trap (it won't save you if you get into trouble). Think of them as the masochist's approach to learning destroyers...

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I have recently unlocked Daring. Line was comfortable and fun to play overall. They have poor top speed, no engine boost even Georgia and Hakuryu can be faster than you and shells can be considered as slow. Jervis and Lightning torpedo range can be frustrating when you have to play against 10-12 km radars. Jutland dpm is bad for tier but slaps any broadside with AP also took some topedo nerf recently. 

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2 hours ago, Dante_AK said:

In general im looking something that have smoke, normal torps with some range, and can defend itself against dds, or at least have some chance in 1vs1 dds fight.

I dont want to play shima and similar torp dds with bad guns. Or should i?

As others have said, the IJN and American lines are probably your best bet for learning to DD, although neither fits your 'ideal exactly', at least not at all tiers.

  • Americans are 'good enough' at everything, but not usually awesome at anything (unless you count their smoke).
  • IJN are mostly about the torps, until T8, where you get the first 'dakka' option (Aki) on the alternative line.
  • The Americans will teach you about gunnery with floaty arcs, and about how to ambush people (you don't get a stealth torp window until T7); making use of smoke is another skill-set that you'll develop (bonus points for not blinding your own side).
  • The Japanese will teach you about abusing vision mechanics (you will come to love the number 5.4) and how to torp; don't disregard their guns though - used judiciously, they can ruin people's day.
  • Minor note: the US get access to DefAA (can't remember from which tier - 6?) and can have sufficient AA to keep mediocre CVs at bay (don't rely on it though, or waste time building into it).

After the IJN/US lines, perhaps look at the original Germans (the new ones are meh, with the T7 being bloody awful) and/or the British (lower tiers can be frustrating, but T8+ are glorious)...

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Additional (and slightly at a tangent): whatever you choose, don't forget your 'p' key - if your AA range is longer than your air detection range, keep your AA off until it's actually needed - it's an easy way to blow stealth when planes come calling (and I don't think you need to do it on any other class).

 

If you can't remember your AA range and air detection distance (I usually can't); press and hold 'h' in-game...

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Just now, Verblonde said:

If you can't remember your AA range and air detection distance (I usually can't); press and hold 'h' in-game...

It's simpler to just turn on the circles on the minimap: sometimes you can even use them to slip past the planes undetected, as long as they weren't going *directly* for you.

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Just now, tocqueville8 said:

It's simpler to just turn on the circles on the minimap: sometimes you can even use them to slip past the planes undetected, as long as they weren't going *directly* for you.

I have all those enabled anyway. I was mainly commenting on whether you need your AA toggled off, or whether it doesn't make any difference.

 

For instance, not all the Kagero sisters are the same: some have AA/detection the same, and at least one has a 0.1 km difference; doesn't usually make a difference, but just once in a while...

 

BTW OP: if you can, it's worth mapping the 'reinforce sector' button to an alternative mouse button; clicking that also activates AA at the same time (assuming the sector thing isn't on cooldown), and can be easier/faster to do if you're trying to manage both air and surface threats at the same time...

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PA and RN are the easiest I guess. Both have fairly short reload on their smoke screens, which makes it easy to escape from planes. RN DDs also get hydro, but somewhat short on the torpedorange. 
 

USN is pretty great overall, but the reload time on the smoke is pretty high compared to RN/PA. Takes some more awareness.

 

IJN both lines are pretty okay, but somewhat more difficult to play right. 

 

KM meh line. I think only both tier 10s are good.

 

MN lots of fun to play without CV’s. With CV’s you get shafted hard every game. Less traditional and difficult.

 

SN also fun to play as gun boats. Less traditional.

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2 hours ago, arttuperkunas said:

As one dd potato to another, uk dds are fun and relatively easy to play. Great cap contesters and knife fighters, good guns, “good enough” concealment and torps, good agility, great smokes, noob friendly battery of consumables.

I agree - Daring is great at tier X, having short hydro helps dodging against torps in stressful situation where a newbie might just drive straight, firepower sufficient to pewpew back at other DDs and the short smokes are good because if you fark up a smoke, you don't have to wait 3 minutes for the waste one to regenerate. 

 

I'll take the risk to call me average DD player though :Smile_hiding:

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32 minutes ago, LemonadeWarriorITA said:

 

MN = french & SN = European?

Also, PA with radar is great fun

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Unpopular opinion:

Spoiler

 

Daring

>often outgunned 

>long reload for slow mid-range fish

>low top speed which forces you to plan your escape beforehand

>short duration smoke  hinders your HE spamming potential to the fullest nor does it help you evade faster enemies or radar ships

>not potato friendly :(

 

Gearing and Yueyang

>superior torps

>enough firepower to gun down aggressive pushers

>speed boost 

>Does everything Daring can do, but better

>No gimmicks, just pure DDs in their natural form 

 

French

0c70408c92c41f37627deecda78bb015.jpg

 

 

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14 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

MN = french & SN = European?

Also, PA with radar is great fun

Oof completely forgot to mention Europe lulz. 

 

Marine Nationale (French) and Soviet Navy.

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Vor 5 Stunden, Dante_AK sagte:

I would like to try and play some dds, i did try them when i was starting playing wows, it was bad experience not knowing anything about game and yeah, torping some friendly players.

So are there like in title good starting tech tree lines?

For me, it was / is NOT the US DD line that provides a good learning potential on how to play DD.

 

Whereas the T3 Wickes and T4 Clemson are nice, I struggled in managing the T5 Nicholas, T6 Farragut and T7 Mahan. Main issue there: you're bound to imperatively use either terrain or luck and speed to carry home a torpedo attack. The fishes do not have sufficient reach in range for stealthy attacks.

This is true in Wickes and Clemson too, but my experience told me that their health pool is large enough to either absorb mistakes in playing or unavoidable gun damage while pressing home a torpedo assault. T5-7 was not agreeable at all, the trips back to port came often all too quick.

 

If I would single out and recommend a DD tech tree for learning, it'll be the Japanese one. In my opinion, it's easier to concentrate there on an important skill in DD: managing your stealth / avoiding being detected. You don't need to expose yourself when using torpedoes. As the ships are often quite fragile, the impetus for avoiding enemy fire is really high.

 

The gimmicks as German DD with hydro will surely come in really handy later.

 

Regards, Nightowl

 

Caveat / PS. : I'm not at all anywhere near of being a good player, maybe average, that is. The text above stems from my own experience and feeling about the ships. This experience is build upon using several different DD.

I've researched: T8 Benson / USN , T7 Shiratsuyu / IJN, T7 Maas / KM, T7 Skåne / EU, and I own the premiums T7 Błyskawica / EU, T8 HSF Harekaze / IJN and T6 Anshan / Pan-Asia. By having them gotten rented out, I tried the T6 Gallant / RN too.  My ranking of enjoyability goes so, descending order: 1) IJN - 2) USN = KM - 4) EU - 5) RN = Asia.

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11 minutes ago, Northern_Nightowl said:

I struggled in managing the T5 Nicholas, T6 Farragut and T7 Mahan. Main issue there: you're bound to imperatively use either terrain or luck and speed to carry home a torpedo attack. The fishes do not have sufficient reach in range for stealthy attacks.

I struggled with these ships too (Mahan less so, as you get a stealth launch window with the upgraded torps); the reason they're so good for learning is precisely because of the characteristics you highlight i.e. it's simply not possible to stand off and spam torps - this forces you to learn how to operate at closer quarters, which is essential in learning how to DD.

 

Whilst I'm a long way from being a good player; I'm a lot less bad with DDs than I would be otherwise because the US DDs (and Russians, to a lesser extent) forced me to stop relying too heavily on torps.

 

(Of course, you generally want to launch IJN torps from closer range too, to get hits, but that's a lot easier when you're sneaky)

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Vor 1 Minute, Verblonde sagte:

I struggled with these ships too (Mahan less so, as you get a stealth launch window with the upgraded torps); the reason they're so good for learning is precisely because of the characteristics you highlight i.e. it's simply not possible to stand off and spam torps - this forces you to learn how to operate at closer quarters, which is essential in learning how to DD.

[...]

(Of course, you generally want to launch IJN torps from closer range too, to get hits, but that's a lot easier when you're sneaky)

Spamming torpedoes is quite difficult when the reload duration is located in timeframes where you will likely only get 4-6 salvoes out before the battle is decided.

I'm ignoring the "cyclic" rate here (2 minutes reload would give you 10 salvoes per 20 minutes) and I am including approximations of the time needed to get into sensible launching positions and average battle lenghts. In Japanese DD, you will surely better perform when, maybe after an initial area denial, you try to make every launch count...

 

Relying on stealth and torpedoes removes a bit the need to keep the map awareness high and removes also the need to think about smoke.

In learning in general, you would be better of in mastering a fractionated ability (as playing DD) by learning the separate skills (in DD: stealth management, best weapon usage, likely counters, effective manoeuvring, how to escape...) separately.

 

I still maintain that the IJN DD allows you to hone one skill after another much better than the US line and somewhat better than the German line. You won't be busy in trying to learn much, and likely too much, and once.

 

Regards, Nightowl

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14 minutes ago, Northern_Nightowl said:

In Japanese DD, you will surely better perform when, maybe after an initial area denial, you try to make every launch count...

Quite true, but what the Americans teach you (which is essential) is when/how to use guns as well.

 

It's very easy to sit back and launch torps from range with the Japanese; the trouble with this is that it reduces the pressure you're applying to the opposition (you have more time to spot/dodge their very visible fish, and you know their guns are less threat from a distance). The Japanese are easy 'passive' mode if you aren't careful; the more active and influential plays are a lot easier to learn with the US.

 

It's not a case of one or the other, but both - playing the IJN DDs will make you a better US DD driver, and vice versa.

 

To reiterate, I hated the US DDs the first time around, mainly because they required skills that I didn't have yet, and the IJN DDs were simply easier to do something with; forcing myself to play the short-range torp DDs (mainly the US to start with) made me a much less bad DD player, and - more importantly - gave me the ability to influence a battle (by my standards) because I wasn't reliant on the 'torp truck' style of play, that is far too easy to counter.

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British line on account of their heal and hydro.

You’ll be using guns and torps so learn skills you can apply to other lines.

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Vor 3 Minuten, Verblonde sagte:

Quite true, but what the Americans teach you (which is essential) is when/how to use guns as well.

 

It's very easy to sit back and launch torps from range with the Japanese; the trouble with this is that it reduces the pressure you're applying to the opposition (you have more time to spot/dodge their very visible fish, and you know their guns are less threat from a distance). The Japanese are easy 'passive' mode if you aren't careful; the more active and influential plays are a lot easier to learn with the US.

 

It's not a case of one or the other, but both - playing the IJN DDs will make you a better US DD driver, and vice versa.

 

To reiterate, I hated the US DDs the first time around, mainly because they required skills that I didn't have yet, and the IJN DDs were simply easier to do something with; forcing myself to play the short-range torp DDs (mainly the US to start with) made me a much less bad DD player, and - more importantly - gave me the ability to influence a battle (by my standards) because I wasn't reliant on the 'torp truck' style of play, that is far too easy to counter.

Very well, full ack for that: "It's not a case of one or the other, but both - playing the IJN DDs will make you a better US DD driver, and vice versa." :cap_like:

As the question was which line is recommended for starters, would you say that a player shall try to make work the DD guns or the DD torpedoes first?

I still say: Torpedoes. If not for anything else, then for reducing frustration of being not able to do anything visible on the engaged enemy with your guns...

 

Regards, Nightowl

 

PS. I'd like to share what was somehow a turning point in my gaming experience:

Part 1, this thread of mine, where I met several experienced gamers who taught me a more structured approach of managing a battle. It motivated me also to this one.

Part 2, I developed then a determination to explore DD after having gotten quite frustrated with them, especially the T5 Nicholas, T6 Farragut and T7 Błyskawica. I spammed games for around 35k experience only in Co-op with T7 Mahan, not even bothering to research modules, mostly for racking up torpedo damage for missions. There is only a single game that I really enjoyed back then. USS Farragut on Neighbors (also a map that I hated), In was really happy in surprising a red Massachussetts at less than 3km distance around an island. It ate most of my 8-fish-salvo and got sunk. Later on, I got another big ship, IIRC the CV. But this was a truly singular experience.

Anyway, the words of eg. those players in the threads linked above made me reconsider my opinions.

Part 3, the result. Now, I like the way of fighting in DD, as I discovered the value of stealth. I'm fond of my Harekaze, the tech tree IJN ships from T5 to T7 are nice too, I got my last Kraken in Visby and I am thinking about investing coal in the Neustrashimy... It looks like it could serve my playing way well.

The future: much more to learn and improve, but the potential for frustration is largely gone.

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26 minutes ago, Northern_Nightowl said:

As the question was which line is recommended for starters, would you say that a player shall try to make work the DD guns or the DD torpedoes first?

I still say: Torpedoes. If not for anything else, then for reducing frustration of being not able to do anything visible on the engaged enemy with your guns...

I would urge running the two lines in parallel; from my perspective (and assuming there are few CVs around, which is unlikely if you're facing T4s), IJN is more fun for a newbie, but makes you lazy, whilst the US forces you to learn stuff that is absolutely necessary at higher tiers i.e. anything to do with guns.

 

Your IJN torp DDs give you some satisfying damage games (although not necessarily influential damage), whereas the US are the equivalent of 'eating your greens' which is more useful in the long run, but more frustrating in the short-term.

 

You know those idiots you see tooling round in Shimas (especially at the weekend), spamming torps from 20 km? That's what happens if you don't eat your greens. The terrifying (minority of) Shimas are the ones that operate much closer in, giving you very little chance to detect/evade their launches, and finish off the maimed with their guns (knowing when to fire without getting annihilated because they broke stealth at the wrong moment); that sort of skill-set is much easier to acquire at lower tiers, playing things like the Americans.

 

A slightly different 'eating your greens' perspective is that IJN torp boats are - at lower tiers especially - almost entirely defenceless against CVs; if you want 'hard mode' learning to deal with CVs, play the IJN. The Americans have much less bad AA, and that at least gives you options against average CVs that the IJN simply don't have (and are balanced around weaker concealment, so lose less when perma-spotted).

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A tiny bit of advice. If you really want to learn to play destroyers I would say the most important youtube channel is Destroyer KuroshioKai. He plays huge amounts of destroyer games and explains everything. All his choices and tactics as he plays. A "must-see" for all destroyer captains.

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