Udaloi 'B' hull - A downgrade?

[Matt_FSR]

So I've been having quite a bit of fun lately with the Soviet "torpedo" DD line, and recently got the Udaloi.  

 

Good set of tools to be useful, heal, smoke, defAA, gives you plenty of options on how to play the match, and the 10km torpedoes are sufficient 'stand off' weapons to have a decent chance of landing hits, or pushing away BB's.    Doubly so in the Grand Battles mode!

 

Thing is, I'm looking at the stats on the 'B' hull and I just can't see how it's entirely an upgrade?   Yes, you get a small amount more HP and better rudder shift, which is always nice, but the upgrade to the torpdoes is a double-edged sword.  Yes, they're 5x launchers rather than 3x launchers, but they reload in almost DOUBLE the time, so you lose a lot of flexibility, and often you can only land 1 hit from a spread anyway, regardless of if it's a 5 or 3 spread.

 

Now here's the kicker.  You LOSE 500m of concealment!!      Yep, I'm already at an 800m disadvantage against the likes of Halland and Daring, but I'm expected to lose even more stealth, yet gain nothing in torpedo range or gun firepower to compensate. 

 

Anyone else tried the Udaloi and found they do better with the 'A' hull rather than the 'B' hull?

 

I mean, if I want to zoom around in a 3x2 130mm gun armed Soviet destroyer with lousy stealth, I'm just doing to grab the Trashkent and AFT surely?  

[Animalul2012]

Powercreeped ship along with all soviet destroyers except grozovoi. German mass and z-46 make they re existence obsolete, same go for the french and japanese gunboats. 

Also you need B hull, trading rudder and HP for some concealment on what is already a very non stealthy destroyer is not worth it.

[ColonelPete]

7 minutes ago, Animalul2012 said:

Powercreeped ship along with all soviet destroyers except grozovoi. German mass and z-46 make they re existence obsolete, same go for the french and japanese gunboats. 

Also you need B hull, trading rudder and HP for some concealment on what is already a very non stealthy destroyer is not worth it.

Udaloi seems to perform well.

Spoiler

 

[Prophecy82]

Its not a downgrade. 

Just deal with the bad concealment. Its a russian Gunboat, so apply the following ruleset:

 

1. Kill first, Cap later. 

2. You kill, Spot, disengage by shooting. 

3. If you dont shoot, you are out of position or trying to cap. 

4. Smokes are defensive, you dont sit in them to farm dmg. 

5. You help your team by being shot at, so learn to dodge.

 

For the last 3 Seasons of ranked Udaloi has been my top-pick and never disappointed. Its utility has no match. 

My stats from last ranked season

 

[Beastofwar]

When i played those 2 tier IX Soviet DD i really had the impression their design is incredibly old ( first versions of WOWS ?  ) and originates from a time gun focussed and fast DD were very special.

 

So although they still perform - quite well -  they feel antique compared to newer DD with the same traits.

 

 

[Prophecy82]

1 hour ago, Beastofwar said:

When i played those 2 tier IX Soviet DD i really had the impression their design is incredibly old ( first versions of WOWS ?  ) and originates from a time gun focussed and fast DD were very special.

 

So although they still perform - quite well -  they feel antique compared to newer DD with the same traits.

 

 

 

Both have pretty much no competition in what they do. Morgador is the only competitor (and maybe some weird Paolo Emilio build). 

They will get outgunned at close ranges by kitakaze and alike but at about 10km you just murder any other DD that dares to oppose you. 

 

Udaloi can use defensive smoke if Morgador fires its MBRB while Tashkent just outheals the Morg (given same player skill - as always -). 

 

In fact there are only very few (surface) ships that pose a threat to both RU-DDs... ofc those with high shell velocity. 

But fighting even cruisers like Alaska, Des Moines and all those medium/slow shell ships at 12+ km pffff these both really dont care. 

 

Getting 2 Mio potential damage in both ships is normal, if you know how to dodge. 

 

Edit: To all that might be reading this: FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, TAKE HEAL FOR TASHKENT! No wonder Tashkent has such $hitty stats when ppl take smoke. Makes me sad every time I see it.  

[ForlornSailor]

as @Prophecy82 said, Udaloi is a gunboat. You use AFT to get the gunrange to ~15 km and torture everything you see, especially BBs. You want them to shoot you aswell, thats why the upgrade in ruddershift. A good player, that pays attention to incoming fire and is using WASD + speedboost is almost impossible to hit. With Udaloi you also prepare for the playstyle of Grozovoi - both which are very different to Ognevoi. Ognevoi isnt a gunboat.

[ColonelPete]

3 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

When i played those 2 tier IX Soviet DD i really had the impression their design is incredibly old ( first versions of WOWS ?  ) and originates from a time gun focussed and fast DD were very special.

USSR DD came after US and IJN DD.

And these gunboats made up 1/3 of all available tech tree DD.

[FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor]

Dude, it's a gunboat, not a torpedo boat.

[Fatal_Ramses]

4 hours ago, Prophecy82 said:

Its not a downgrade. 

Just deal with the bad concealment. Its a russian Gunboat, so apply the following ruleset:

 

1. Kill first, Cap later. 

2. You kill, Spot, disengage by shooting. 

3. If you dont shoot, you are out of position or trying to cap. 

4. Smokes are defensive, you dont sit in them to farm dmg. 

5. You help your team by being shot at, so learn to dodge.

 

For the last 3 Seasons of ranked Udaloi has been my top-pick and never disappointed. Its utility has no match. 

My stats from last ranked season

 

How have you equipped your Udaloi and her captain? I unlocked Udaloi some time ago and been training her captain in coop and testing her out.

I haven't taken her to Random or Ranked but I'm tempted.

Ognevoi is quite different than her.

 

*edit

I had a Udaloi on my ranked team earlier today. He hold the A cap vs Z-46 supported by Neptune.

It was awesome to watch.

[Prophecy82]

48 minutes ago, Fatal_Ramses said:

How have you equipped your Udaloi and her captain?

 

Its a bog standard-build for me.  It may be better to take heavy AP instead of fire (also take that one last). Personally I cant live without priority target, it gives so many valuable informations. But if you can... well... what ever floats your boat. 

The only really mandatory skills are AFT and Last stand. 

Spoiler

 

 

A bit unusual gameplaywise for me but it shows a lot of the abilities Udaloi has (also quite a funny loss) 

 

20210618_134636_PRSD107-Pr-35-Udaloy_18_NE_ice_islands.wowsreplay

[GarrusBrutus]

5 hours ago, Matt_FSR said:

Thing is, I'm looking at the stats on the 'B' hull and I just can't see how it's entirely an upgrade?   Yes, you get a small amount more HP and better rudder shift, which is always nice, but the upgrade to the torpdoes is a double-edged sword.  Yes, they're 5x launchers rather than 3x launchers, but they reload in almost DOUBLE the time, so you lose a lot of flexibility, and often you can only land 1 hit from a spread anyway, regardless of if it's a 5 or 3 spread.

As a gunboat you rarely use your torps anyway, so it is not that big of a deal. It is HP and manoeuvrability you need, as they keep you alive longer. More time to use your guns.

5 hours ago, Matt_FSR said:

Now here's the kicker.  You LOSE 500m of concealment!!      Yep, I'm already at an 800m disadvantage against the likes of Halland and Daring, but I'm expected to lose even more stealth, yet gain nothing in torpedo range or gun firepower to compensate. 

The bad concealment can also be turned into an advantage. How? Because the bigger your concealment the earlier you get a warning that an enemy DD is close. Then you know you have to turn, to avoid a knife fight. As the Udaloi excells at long range gunnery but not at close range combat. Most of the time enemy DDs will get greedy as they spot you at 9km and open fire. Only to be met by very accurate Russian gunfire. At 9km+ the Udaloi can outgun almost all of its T9 counterparts.

"Bad" concealment is not bad as a gunboat.

With 8.9km concealment and 14.6km range its one of the most fun T9s ive played.

[Fatal_Ramses]

22 minutes ago, Prophecy82 said:

Its a bog standard-build for me.  It may be better to take heavy AP instead of fire (also take that one last). Personally I cant live without priority target, it gives so many valuable informations. But if you can... well... what ever floats your boat. 

The only really mandatory skills are AFT and Last stand. 

I've managed to live without PT, but it might be a mandatory skill for more visible DDs like the soviets or french.

I took AFT for Taskent but was thing of taking the Brawler? (-10% reload if spotted) for Udaloi. Even with CE and Cons.mod the detection is quite horrible and I was thinking of dropping CE or the mod.

[Prophecy82]

6 minutes ago, Fatal_Ramses said:

I've managed to live without PT, but it might be a mandatory skill for more visible DDs like the soviets or french.

I took AFT for Taskent but was thing of taking the Brawler? (-10% reload if spotted) for Udaloi. Even with CE and Cons.mod the detection is quite horrible and I was thinking of dropping CE or the mod.

 

I think you can drop CE for brawler. Should work fine. I would never drop AFT tho. You really want that range, especially since you cant take rangemod. 

 

PT helps me to see if I can push into a yet concealed DD or better run away or how many targets I have to dodge (over 5 lock ons is critical). 

[BruceRKF]

Udaloi is completely fine, especially since they buffed the torpedo range to 10km. Before, you had a (small) reason to spec CE to get a (small) stealth torp window, but now just don't bother. Just go AFT and shoot as much as possible from range. Not using the B hull is a big mistake. Her rudder shift is quite bad even with the B hull and extra health always helps, a bit of concealment is not enough compensation. Having bad concealment can be useful, since you can turn away earlier when spotted. Udaloi does not have quite enough DPM and is too large and clumsy for a close range fight with other DDs, but at range your ballistics and speed will give you the advantage. Smoke should mostly be used for covering your retreat if necessary. Tashkent plays almost the same, only that she trades some safety (smoke) and torpedo range for even more speed and health. You can argue that Udaloi (and Grozovoi) are a bit more skill-point intensive than their pure gunboat counterparts, since they have fewer charges on their consumables, but they are more versatile.

[Prophecy82]

Another reason why Udaloi is the dominant Gunboat can be found here, since it has the same turrets. 

 

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/151560-you-will-never-unsee-this-very-important-thing/?tab=comments#comment-3916093

[Hugh_Ruka]

Udaloi is out of position in that line unfortunately. In the previous arrangement the line went Tashkent -> Udaloi -> Khabarovsk with stats to match. However at the line split, the new branch was created for what you see today: Ognevoi -> Udaloi -> Grozovoi. Ognevoi had its concealment adjusted to match the line  traits, Udaloi did not.

 

The result is: Udaloi still plays better in the Tashkent/Khaba style than the Ognevoi/Grozovoi style due to serious lack of concealment.

 

It's not a bad ship, just out of place in that line as it pays the price (Smoke+heal configuration) without the benefits (concealment). Ideally a full concealment built Udaloi should be in the 6.2 - 6.0 km concealment range. Also the rudder shift is more in the Tashkent/Khaba line as well ....

[Prophecy82]

1 hour ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Udaloi is out of position in that line unfortunately. In the previous arrangement the line went Tashkent -> Udaloi -> Khabarovsk with stats to match. However at the line split, the new branch was created for what you see today: Ognevoi -> Udaloi -> Grozovoi. Ognevoi had its concealment adjusted to match the line  traits, Udaloi did not.

 

The result is: Udaloi still plays better in the Tashkent/Khaba style than the Ognevoi/Grozovoi style due to serious lack of concealment.

 

It's not a bad ship, just out of place in that line as it pays the price (Smoke+heal configuration) without the benefits (concealment). Ideally a full concealment built Udaloi should be in the 6.2 - 6.0 km concealment range. Also the rudder shift is more in the Tashkent/Khaba line as well ....

 

Personally I think that Ognevoi is the odd duck in the line, since Grozo is closer to Udaloi playstyle-wise then to Ogne.

[Hugh_Ruka]

1 hour ago, Prophecy82 said:

 

Personally I think that Ognevoi is the odd duck in the line, since Grozo is closer to Udaloi playstyle-wise then to Ogne.

Ognevoi is the first stealth torpedo boat in the Russian line, Grozovoi adds good guns to that. Udaloi has neither of those two. Yes the guns are decent and the torps are not bad as well (now, it used to get 8km torps). but the combination does not work with either playstyle (Ognevoi or Grozovoi).

[Prophecy82]

3 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Ognevoi is the first stealth torpedo boat in the Russian line, Grozovoi adds good guns to that. Udaloi has neither of those two. Yes the guns are decent and the torps are not bad as well (now, it used to get 8km torps). but the combination does not work with either playstyle (Ognevoi or Grozovoi).

Beginning at T8 all RU-DDs are able to stealth-torp (with full concealment build), except for Khaba. 

 

Why would you want to press Grozo in the role of a Torp-Boat or cap contester? There are so many other DDs that surpass him in either of this roles. 

On the other hand you have this fast fireing extremly accurate long range guns... how about putting them to use?

[Hugh_Ruka]

32 minutes ago, Prophecy82 said:

Beginning at T8 all RU-DDs are able to stealth-torp (with full concealment build), except for Khaba. 

 

Why would you want to press Grozo in the role of a Torp-Boat or cap contester? There are so many other DDs that surpass him in either of this roles. 

On the other hand you have this fast fireing extremly accurate long range guns... how about putting them to use?

the problem is Grozovoi has the flexibility, Udaloi does not because "reasons". You can cap contest in the Grozovoi quite well when you are aware of the limitations. You have no chance to do that in an Udaloi. Also the stealth torp range difference makes the Grozovoi more flexible. there's no progression in that line, Udaloi needs a different captain that will maybe work on Grozovoi, but will definitely not work on the Ognevoi.

[S_h_i_v_a]

Radio Locator skill.

When you know the direction of your closest target, you can choose where to engage.

[Prophecy82]

11 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

the problem is Grozovoi has the flexibility, Udaloi does not because "reasons". You can cap contest in the Grozovoi quite well when you are aware of the limitations. You have no chance to do that in an Udaloi. Also the stealth torp range difference makes the Grozovoi more flexible. there's no progression in that line, Udaloi needs a different captain that will maybe work on Grozovoi, but will definitely not work on the Ognevoi.

To be honest: I have the same build on Grozo and Udaloi (see above). 

I agree its easier (or possible at all) to contest caps with Grozovoi, but I see it as the progression from Udaloi (the concealment that is). 

The torps are the same but less with worse arcs, so there is no progression. 

The guns on Grozo feel like an upgrade (cant check the stats atm). 

[BruceRKF]

26 minutes ago, Prophecy82 said:

To be honest: I have the same build on Grozo and Udaloi (see above). 

I agree its easier (or possible at all) to contest caps with Grozovoi, but I see it as the progression from Udaloi (the concealment that is). 

The torps are the same but less with worse arcs, so there is no progression. 

The guns on Grozo feel like an upgrade (cant check the stats atm). 

Agreed. I don't use CE on Grozovoi either, since I would have to give up gun power or survivability for it. The guns are too good for that, imo, with even better ballistics than Udaloi's. While her 6km (with CE) concealment is competitive, she has the same problem as Udaloi: Too fat and not enough DPM for short range engagements. You can always come back to cap later.

[Matt_FSR]

Cheers for the replies everyone, some pretty useful tips.

 

It does seem a bit wierd that you spec a captain for full stealth / torpedoes on Ognevoi, which I did enjoy as a change from the pure gunboats on the way up to her...   then you have to change the captain back again for a full guns build for Udaloi!  

 

I might stick the 'B' hull on her and play around in Grand Battles a bit, (no AFT on my captain) and see how she does, maybe re-spec the Captain at the free re-spec for full on gun build. 

 

Whilst I'm aware she isn't a torp boat per se, being able to dump 10-20k raw unhealable DMG into BB's from 1-2 torps every 35-40 seconds (when they connect) is still pretty valuable I find, so im still going to look for chances where I can dump fishies and cackle heartily  :-)