De Ruyter: Should she be T6?

[LiveWire___]

See my thread De Ruyter: under tiered? for my reasons why "Yes"

 

For those wanting to know why here, my reasons are as follows:

 

I believe that it is about 2 tiers too low. I believe that it should have been T6.

 

The reasons for this are numerous.

 

Firstly, this was a modern cruiser at the time of WW2; she was launched on 11th March 1935, making it a newer ship than HMS Leander, (launched 24 September 1931) a T6 ship. 

 

De Ruyter and Leander were virtually capable of the same speed, had similar armour, similar crew complements, and, other than DE Ruyter's lack of torpedoes, were similarly armed.

 

De Ruyter was a unique ship, and I believe that she deserved a unique place in game. For example, she could have been a stealthy, accurate DD hunter (De Ruyter's fire control was reputed to be excellent, hence good accuracy), with good concealment and a nice set of consumables.

 

Her "Admiral" pack, furthermore, could have included Rear Admiral Karel Doorman, which would have been a great start to a Dutch naval line.

 

Finally; Her wreck, the wreck of HNLMS Java, and HNLMS Kortenaer were disgracefully and illegally salvaged shortly after being discovered in the early 2000s. I have read that any crew remains were dumped in pits dug for the purpose. She could have been included as both a memorial and "protest" of this act, not only to bring it to the attention of the gaming community, but the public at large.

 

These dutch ships were not the only casualty of this; HMS Electra & HMS Exeter were also illegally salvaged, along with the US submarine, USS Perch. 

 

A missed opportunity, I feel.

 

 

[Pururut]

Said it before and will say it again. The main premise of the Dutch cruiser line is supposed to be heavy cruisers. Even though the line is similar Soviet cruisers as in having a ton of protected/light cruisers until tier 8, these simply exist as filler with the exception of De Zeven as that will generate revenue for Wargaming. Personally if De Ruyter was implemented as OP described it I wouldnt have it at tier 6. Leander is difficult as is... tier 5 is more appropriate for a Leander without torpedoes. As such my vote is no; not because De Ruyter cant be placed at a higher tier but simply because the ship is irrelevant to the tech tree and what it is advertised for. I would rather have that ABDA admiral as a unique commander like Yamamato.

 

Now regarding the wrecks and salvaging I think another thread was made about Hood and some propeller. It is better to accept things for what they are. There isnt much that can be done for those in and around the wrecks. It is better for the materials in these hulks to be of use for those that are still living.

[Jvd2000]

I voted no. T6 is way out of her league, a case could be made for T5 but even that is iffy.

 

The Dutch military was way underfunded. The Java class cruisers were late WW1 designs ( like Karhlsruhe) but only finished in the 1920’s being incredibly outdated the moment they were finished. Out of the 3 planned ( and out of the six cruisers seems as the absolute minimum) only 2 we’re actually finished. The number 3 , the Celebes, which now in a non historical is the T5 was not build. It was planned to be a slightly larger Java but only due to be the planned admiral commandship ( thus extra staff quarters).

 

So the Java could be considered more reasonable T4’s then the current T3 position they are now in. WG did put them in T3 because otherwise there would be nothing between Gelderland and T4.

 

And then: De Ruyter. If Java should have been T4 , then a case could be made for De Ruyter to be T5. But then De Ruyter was not that much better… More modern yes, centerline guns etc..But even less armored and less tons ( that’s why it has less HP then the T3 Java) . It was just a cruiser build to fill in the need of the 3rd cruiser with just the smallest budget. That money was made available was also due to the fact that Java sistership, the Sumatra, had chronical engine problems..

 

So, De Ruyter, is justified T4 even when built in 1935. Capabilities are leading not the year of taking into service. WG decided to make the line setup as it is. Imo De Ruyter is basicly aT4,5. So she needs buffing to make her fun at T5 and a small nerf to make her not OP at T4. WG did the latter for reasons regarding a logical line setup.

 

 

[LiveWire___]

1 hour ago, Pururut said:

The main premise of the Dutch cruiser line is supposed to be heavy cruisers

They didn't have any. The Dutch cruisers were ALL light cruisers. Ergo, any Heavy Cruiser introduced would be made up. 

 

HNLMS Jacob van Heemskerck (9.4" guns) and HNLMS De Zeven Provinciën (11" guns) were coastal defence ships.

 

De Ruyter is special.

 

She is a Premium ship.

 

She does not have to comply with any cruiser line. WG can make anything happen that they want. They should have done it this time. 

[LiveWire___]

1 hour ago, Pururut said:

Now regarding the wrecks and salvaging I think another thread was made about Hood and some propeller. It is better to accept things for what they are. There isnt much that can be done for those in and around the wrecks. It is better for the materials in these hulks to be of use for those that are still living.

I sincerely hope you are joking. 

[Jvd2000]

7 hours ago, LiveWire___ said:

 

 

De Ruyter is special.

 

She is a Premium ship.

 

She does not have to comply with any cruiser line. WG can make anything happen that they want. They should have done it this time. 

No she is not a premium or special ship. Like the earlier access ships she received a temporary status as a special ship but she will revert to a normal silver line version when the full line becomes available. Like the z- 31 german dd that today with 10.5 became regular.

[WWDragon]

2 hours ago, LiveWire___ said:

They didn't have any. The Dutch cruisers were ALL light cruisers. Ergo, any Heavy Cruiser introduced would be made up.

Yes but they are the cruisers that been added with 203mm,  240mm and  283mm  from tier VIII to X.

Tier VI is Kijkduin that is De Zeven Provinciën as that was the original name and seems to be the original design, in fact you can even spot were her torpedoes tubes are meant to be if they were added to the ship since she originally had then.

[lafeel]

No, she's definetly no more than tier 4 material. Sorry to our Dutch members that want to think otherwise.

[Onsterfelijke]

7 hours ago, LiveWire___ said:

They didn't have any. The Dutch cruisers were ALL light cruisers. Ergo, any Heavy Cruiser introduced would be made up. 

 

HNLMS Jacob van Heemskerck (9.4" guns) and HNLMS De Zeven Provinciën (11" guns) were coastal defence ships.

 

De Ruyter is special.

 

She is a Premium ship.

 

She does not have to comply with any cruiser line. WG can make anything happen that they want. They should have done it this time. 

No the build were going to start on those Heavy cruiser in 1940 all materiaal were already bought and maded. So they were certainly NOT made up

 

I think you are confused with the names just check the buildyears to keep them seperate.

 

So give WG a bit slack here Historical i find they did a good job (airstrike a bit overdone) but the plans very good

[Beastofwar]

She fought tier VII and VIII enemies IRL. Some of the ships in her fleet she commanded were tier V and VI.( although it was a bit of a rabble with much older ships too ) So in that light yes....

 

But in game not the weight of the rank of her commander ( Admiral - flagship ) is important, but her actual weapons compentence. And then it likely really is a tier IV ship.

 

Still i voted yes as she else will not see Myoko's and Kagero's in game...her real life enemies and most glorious moments as a warship.

 

As fighting superior enemies in a last stand are always glorious and inspiring no matter how grim they end. Not sure how much "glory" the men on the mauled ships actually felt, but they sure were brave and did their duty when that meant paying with your life for it.

 

Often we judge what a ships in game should be based on reputation.....and i think WG really counts the weapons and armour for that verdict. Lots of  (main belt, citadel or gun turret)  armour of ships is actually 1:1 with reality. Only the extremity plating is tier based "fantasy" balanced.

[CastorTolagi]

Vor 9 Stunden, LiveWire___ sagte:

Firstly, this was a modern cruiser at the time of WW2; she was launched on 11th March 1935, making it a newer ship than HMS Leander, (launched 24 September 1931) a T6 ship. 

The launch date is completly irrelevant for the tier of a ship. Otherwise Östergotland would be the EU T10 and Halland T9.

Or Rhein would have no place as a T4 CV beeing a project from 1942 while all the others T4 CVs are 20 years older.

 

Vor 9 Stunden, LiveWire___ sagte:

De Ruyter and Leander were virtually capable of the same speed, had similar armour, similar crew complements, and, other than DE Ruyter's lack of torpedoes, were similarly armed.

But what you're missing is that De Ruyter is with 7500t fully loaded nearly 2000t lighter than Leander with her ~9400t fully loaded and puts the ships HP in the same area as Huang He as an Arethusa class is located with 24.000HP.

Aka by far the lowest HP of any T6 cruiser and I think I don't have to tell anyone how many gimmicks Huang He has to be even remotely capable to play as a T6.

 

Vor 10 Stunden, LiveWire___ sagte:

Finally; Her wreck, the wreck of HNLMS Java, and HNLMS Kortenaer were disgracefully and illegally salvaged shortly after being discovered in the early 2000s. I have read that any crew remains were dumped in pits dug for the purpose. She could have been included as both a memorial and "protest" of this act, not only to bring it to the attention of the gaming community, but the public at large.

Thats certainly sad but also has nothing to do with the game and is no argument why the ship should be uptiered at all.

 

Sorry to tell you but De Ruyter was never more than T4 material.

[LiveWire___]

3 hours ago, CastorTolagi said:

The launch date is completly irrelevant for the tier of a ship.

Can you tell me about another equally modern ship at T4?

 

3 hours ago, CastorTolagi said:

I think I don't have to tell anyone how many gimmicks Huang He has to be even remotely capable to play as a T6.

....which is EXACTLY my point. WG could have done it. They just chose not to.

[LiveWire___]

I think I need to clarify more clearly where I'm coming from at this point.

 

I listed a number of reasons why I BELIEVE that this ship should have been at T6. These were historical reasons.

 

However, shoehorning this ship in at T6, with appropriate buffs / consumables, could easily have been carried out by WG. 

 

Examples of when they've done this already are numerous. For example:

 

1: Normandie at T6 - An early 1900s design with a fictitious modernisation, which never existed.

2: Lyon at T7 - Ditto

3: Bayern at T6 - a real WW1 ship given a fictitious modernisation

4: Prinz Eitel Friedrich at T6 - An uncompleted WW1 ship whose stats WG tweaked to fit

5: Viribus Unitis at T5 - Many believe that this ship should have been T4 or even 3, yet WG waved its wand and made it so.

 

So, my point (as though I needed to reinforce it further) is that WG COULD EASILY HAVE MADE IT HAPPEN, and damn the historicity.

 

[CastorTolagi]

Vor 3 Stunden, LiveWire___ sagte:

Can you tell me about another equally modern ship at T4?

You mean a ship from the late 1920s or younger?

1. Rhein; Blueprint from 1942
2. Italian Cruiser Alberto di Giussano; Ship launched 1930
3. French Cruiser Duguay-Trouin; Upgraded Hull from 1932
4. French Destroyer Bourrasque; Upgraded Hull from 1931
5. IJN Yubari; Ship ingame is her after 1944 Refit
6. US Battleship Wyoming; Upgraded Hull is USS Arkansas after her 1942 Refit

[LiveWire___]

5 minutes ago, CastorTolagi said:

You mean a ship from the late 1920s or younger?

1. Rhein; Blueprint from 1942
2. Italian Cruiser Alberto di Giussano; Ship launched 1930
3. French Cruiser Duguay-Trouin; Upgraded Hull from 1932
4. French Destroyer Bourrasque; Upgraded Hull from 1931
5. IJN Yubari; Ship ingame is her after 1944 Refit
6. US Battleship Wyoming; Upgraded Hull is USS Arkansas after her 1942 Refit

Well done. I thought someone would answer that one.

 

Except:

 

1: Didn't exist. WG made stats up. 

2: An older ship than De Ruyter

3: Ditto except REFITTED

4: Ditto

5: Ditto

6: Ditto

 

See my point now?

 

I repeat:

 

3 hours ago, LiveWire___ said:

Examples of when they've done this already are numerous. For example:

 

1: Normandie at T6 - An early 1900s design with a fictitious modernisation, which never existed.

2: Lyon at T7 - Ditto

3: Bayern at T6 - a real WW1 ship given a fictitious modernisation

4: Prinz Eitel Friedrich at T6 - An uncompleted WW1 ship whose stats WG tweaked to fit

5: Viribus Unitis at T5 - Many believe that this ship should have been T4 or even 3, yet WG waved its wand and made it so.

 

So, my point (as though I needed to reinforce it further) is that WG COULD EASILY HAVE MADE IT HAPPEN, and damn the historicity.

 

Which still stands. 

 

And, READ THIS, as I said before:

 

"So, my point (as though I needed to reinforce it further) is that WG COULD EASILY HAVE MADE IT HAPPEN, and damn the historicity."

 

 

 

[Yedwy]

No, reason is Balance

[CastorTolagi]

And again the Launch date has nothing to do with the Tier. Somers at T10 is from 1937 and Östergotland at T9 from 1958/9

So which Ship is wrongly Tiered?

Tiger at T8 was launched 1959, Mogador at T9 from 1938

So which Ship is wrongly Tiered?

None

BECAUSE LAUCH DATE DOESN'T MATTER

 

The main Factor that matters for the Tier of a cruiser, Battleship and Aircraft carrier and the point you dodged so far is that De Ruyter is a 7500t ship with a total of 24.000 HP --> even worse than Huang He

How can you justify a ship with such a HP Pool at that Tier?! That has to fight not only T5s but also T7/8 ships? Leander has more HP and still needed a heal, and Smoke on top.

[LiveWire___]

1 minute ago, Yedwy said:

No, reason is Balance

It could have been balanced at T6. 

[Beastofwar]

That is a nice chart but besides De Ruyter having much less displacement then other light Cruisers in game that are directly compared to it , are factors like possible having much more fuel capacity for that tonnage and not per definition that displacement being weapons weighed also ?

 

I mean De Ruyter was used for purposes that had to do with protecting long distance trade routes to and from colonies on other side of the world. So it would have had much larger fuel capacity then Cruisers meant for operating closer to "home" or as part of fleets with fleet fuelers.

 

Large fuel capacity in this game is a useless value. Only weapons count. To my knowing these were as light as possible on that ship and that does not do well in the game. ( hence the air strikes in higher tiers )

 

 

[Yedwy]

1 minute ago, LiveWire___ said:

It could have been balanced at T6. 

Without trops? Hardly TBH Way more powerfoul ships are trash at T6

[LiveWire___]

Just now, CastorTolagi said:

And again the Launch date has nothing to do with the Tier

No, the point which I have made several times does. 

 

Re read it.

 

1 minute ago, CastorTolagi said:

De Ruyter is a 7500t ship with a total of 24.000 HP

I didn't dodge it.

 

WG could have increased it.

 

What about my points do you not understand? WG is in control of how many hitpoints a ship has, or its parameters, which tier its at, what consumables it has etc.

 

It could have been done, and WG would have been able to justify it.

 

Look at all the genuinely dodgy stuff they do yet are able to justify.

[LiveWire___]

Just now, Yedwy said:

Without trops?

Yes. 

 

Pensacola doesn't have Torps. 

[CastorTolagi]

Vor 5 Minuten, LiveWire___ sagte:

What about my points do you not understand? WG is in control of how many hitpoints a ship has, or its parameters, which tier its at, what consumables it has etc. 

And you probably think WG pulls out the HP of any ship from their arses?

Sorry but there is an HP Formular that is linked directly to the displacement of a ship.

So NO you can NOT just make up an imaginary HP amount

 

De Ruyter is a T4, it is well placed as a T4 and even T5 would be too much to balance for that ship.

 

Edit:

Oh and even if it would be moved to T6

What would be your replacement for the T4??

[LiveWire___]

Just now, CastorTolagi said:

And you probably think WG pulls out the HP of any ship from their arses?

Correct.

 

[LiveWire___]

2 minutes ago, CastorTolagi said:

it is well placed as a T4 and even T5 would be too much to balance for that ship.

Incorrect. 

 

WG have messed up on tiers of certain ships a number of times. Off the top of my head:

 

1: Giulio Cesare (should have been T6 - 7)

2: Exeter (T6)

3: Viribus Unitis (T4, so they say)