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LiveWire___

De Ruyter: under tiered?

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I just got hold of this ship.

 

I am disappoint.

 

I believe that it is about 2 tiers too low. I believe that it should have been T6.

 

The reasons for this are numerous.

 

Firstly, this was a modern cruiser at the time of WW2; she was launched on 11th March 1935, making it a newer ship than HMS Leander, (launched 24 September 1931a T6 ship. 

 

De Ruyter and Leander were virtually capable of the same speed, had similar armour, similar crew complements, and, other than DE Ruyter's lack of torpedoes, were similarly armed.

 

De Ruyter was a unique ship, and I believe that she deserved a unique place in game. For example, she could have been a stealthy, accurate DD hunter (De Ruyter's fire control was reputed to be excellent, hence good accuracy), with good concealment and a nice set of consumables.

 

Her "Admiral" pack, furthermore, could have included Rear Admiral Karel Doorman, which would have been a great start to a Dutch naval line.

 

Finally; Her wreck, the wreck of HNLMS Java, and HNLMS Kortenaer were disgracefully and illegally salvaged shortly after being discovered in the early 2000s. I have read that any crew remains were dumped in pits dug for the purpose. She could have been included as both a memorial and "protest" of this act, not only to bring it to the attention of the gaming community, but the public at large.

 

These dutch ships were not the only casualty of this; HMS Electra & HMS Exeter were also illegally salvaged, along with the US submarine, USS Perch. 

 

A missed opportunity, I feel.

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You realize that ship faced Myoko's class IRL when it was sunk ?  Kagero and Shiratsuyu class ?

 

I would soil my trousers on that bucket if i were to see real Myoko's steaming up to to kill me.....

 

It was meant to impress or intimidate colonies in a PR role....serve as a token force in distant regions.....not fight superior naval enemies in a war.

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Just now, Beastofwar said:

You realize that ship faced Myoko's class IRL when it was sunk ?  Kagero and Shiratsuyu class ?

 

It was meant to impress or intimidate colonies in a PR role....serve as a token force in distant regions.....not fight superior naval enemies in a war.

Yes. I realised this some two decades or more ago when I first read about the battle of the Java sea. 

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40 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

It was meant to impress or intimidate colonies in a PR role....serve as a token force in distant regions.....not fight superior naval enemies in a war.

Actually, she was built to bolster the cruisers of the Java class, so that if one cruiser was in for repairs or similar, there would always be two available. 

 

In fact, the ship was originally designed with fewer guns and less armour due to a pacifist movement in holland at the time. 

 

Atlanta, a T7 ship, with similar armour and the same guns, somehow found herself a unique niche in game. Why not De Ruyter?

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4 minutes ago, LiveWire___ said:

Actually, she was built to bolster the cruisers of the Java class, so that if one cruiser was in for repairs or similar, there would always be two available. 

 

In fact, the ship was originally designed with fewer guns and less armour due to a pacifist movement in holland at the time. 

 

Believe me, i know all about that country, how they think about defence budget spending ( never changed ! ) and how well trained their military would have been.

 

The only thing these ships had going for them was the bravery of the men on them....and we do not get that in game. Only an air strike substitute to make up for it i guess.

 

I can recall having read somewhere De Ruyter  even had a mock gun barrel at some point in her career......go figure !

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1 minute ago, LiveWire___ said:

Actually, she was built to bolster the cruisers of the Java class, so that if one cruiser was in for repairs or similar, there would always be two available. 

 

In fact, the ship was originally designed with fewer guns and less armour due to a pacifist movement in holland at the time. 

She looks like a Tier V, and has that late WW1 influence of ships like Hawkins, Emerald, Omaha - and the German Emden II (which is hardly surprising!). But she is a bit smaller than all of those and without smoke... probably a bit fragile and undergunned, so they went for that not-particularly-historic version of Celebes instead. 

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Just now, Beastofwar said:

 

Believe me, i know all about that country, how they think about defence budget spending ( never changed ! ) and how well trained their military would have been.

 

The only thing these ships had going for them was the bravery of the men on them....

None of which has much to do with what tier that this ship (IMHO) should have been placed in.

 

With the right consumables and  "flavour", she could have been awesome. I couldn't believe she was only T4: I read it as T6 when she first dropped in my port!

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3 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

She looks like a Tier V, and has that late WW1 influence of ships like Hawkins, Emerald, Omaha - and the German Emden II (which is hardly surprising!). But she is a bit smaller than all of those and without smoke... probably a bit fragile and undergunned, so they went for that not-particularly-historic version of Celebes instead. 

Remember; HMS Exeter, an older (launched 18th July 1929) ship of similar dimensions, with slightly more armour and larger guns, was placed at T5 (should have been T6).

 

She doesn't have smoke.

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5 minutes ago, LiveWire___ said:

None of which has much to do with what tier that this ship (IMHO) should have been placed in.

 

With the right consumables and  "flavour", she could have been awesome. I couldn't believe she was only T4: I read it as T6 when she first dropped in my port!

 

Yes sorry, the game play of ships should be interesting. As i said she has fought tier VII and VIII enemies IRL, so as a tier IV she is indeed too undertiered to be interesting.

 

So i agree with you.

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2 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

 

Yes sorry, game play ships should be interesting. As i said she has fought tier VIII enemies IRL.

...then being T6 would also have been historically accurate! :cap_haloween:

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5 minutes ago, LiveWire___ said:

Remember; HMS Exeter, a ship of similar dimensions, with slightly more armour and larger guns, was placed at T5 (should have been T6).

Exeter was at least 8000 tons, though, De Ruyter is about 6500. Emerald is a more apt comparison but the E class have that massive torpedo loadout. De Ruyter is just a bit undergunned, really. 

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12 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

Exeter was at least 8000 tons, though, De Ruyter is about 6500. Emerald is a more apt comparison but the E class have that massive torpedo loadout. De Ruyter is just a bit undergunned, really. 

Weight and guns don't come into it, I don't think. 

 

USS Atlanta, a T7 ship, weighed in at 6,718 Long tons to De Ruyter's 6,545 Long Tons. She also had the same weapons, but more of them. 

 

De Ruyter could easily have been a ship from a similar mould, but T6. No problem. 

 

And there is NO WAY that De Ruyter could be compared with Emerald. Emerald was a WW1 design! Launched in 1920!

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1 hour ago, Beastofwar said:

 

 

The only thing these ships had going for them was the bravery of the men on them....and we do not get that in game.

Well put, sir.

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1 hour ago, LiveWire___ said:

Finally; Her wreck, the wreck of HNLMS Java, and HNLMS Kortenaer were disgracefully and illegally salvaged shortly after being discovered in the early 2000s. I have read that any crew remains were dumped in pits dug for the purpose. She could have been included as both a memorial and "protest" of this act, not only to bring it to the attention of the gaming community, but the public at large.

 

These dutch ships were not the only casualty of this; HMS Electra & HMS Exeter were also illegally salvaged, along with the US submarine, USS Perch.

 

I read similar about the Prince of Wales and the Repulse too. Things like such can make my blood boil, probably i would get a forum ban if i had wrote down what i think about this and what my " rewards" would be for doing this.

 

:etc_swear: graverobber scum.

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22 minutes ago, K82J said:

 

I read similar about the Prince of Wales and the Repulse too. Things like such can make my blood boil, probably i would get a forum ban if i had wrote down what i think about this and what my " rewards" would be for doing this.

 

:etc_swear: graverobber scum.

 

Yup..but everyone requiring low background steel has butter on his head when purchasing that......it is not just steel they are looting....it is low background steel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel

 

These ships were made before dozens of atmospheric nuclear explosions and accidents tainting everything on the surface* and were deep under water when they happened.

 

*If you are born after the nucealr testing and accidents you have even traces of radiation in your hart cells, that people born before these tests and accidents do not have.

 

Btw : So people who buy or use these, or get examinated or treated by these are scum too right : ( because that is where the robbed steel ends up in )

 

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11 minutes ago, K82J said:

:etc_swear: graverobber scum.

This.

 

(If anyone doesn't know about this stuff, this article from a few years back is a good primer: https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2017/nov/03/worlds-biggest-grave-robbery-asias-disappearing-ww2-shipwrecks)

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10 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

 

Yup..but everyone requiring low background steel has butter on his head when purchasing that......it is not just steel they are looting....it is low background steel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel

 

These ships were made before dozens of atmospheric nuclear explosions and accidents tainting everything on the surface* and were deep under water when they happened.

 

*If you are born after the nucealr testing and accidents you have even traces of radiation in your hart cells, that people born before these tests and accidents do not have.

 

Btw : So people who buy or use these, or get examinated by these are scum too right :

 

 

It is still grave robbery in my eyes. Imagine someone digging out your relative cause (s)he has something scientifically precious in the grave, throwing around every bone, and even steal the remains of the coffin too.

 

Probably you wouldnt just say : " But it is for science ! "

 

BTW, those who need it could get it from legal sources if they want ; there is quite alot of ship that are not war graves. Scapa Flow, for example.

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34 minutes ago, K82J said:

BTW, those who need it could get it from legal sources if they want ; there is quite alot of ship that are not war graves. Scapa Flow, for example.

Agreed.

 

Low background steel is, as we know, rather valuable. Scapa Flow is (obviously) under UK control, and so we have something of a monopoly on low background steel (thanks to ships like SMS Grosser Kurfurst,  Markgraf and several more having been scuttled there)

 

This is Indonesia's equivalent. But, as you pointed out, these sites being war graves....well. I think I made my opinion on that desecration clear in my first post. :etc_swear:

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Dutch cruiser line is supposed to focus on heavy cruisers at high tiers. Most of the nations with heavy cruiser lines start with protected cruisers and continue with light cruisers until mid tiers with exceptions like USSR heavy cruiser line. Dutch cruisers seem to be like the latter so De Ruyter can be a tier higher but at the same point it doesnt really need to as it is not the selling point of the tech tree. History doesnt matter to Wargaming; for them it is just filler content no matter what they claim.

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10 minutes ago, Pururut said:

History doesnt matter to Wargaming; for them it is just filler content no matter what they claim.

Yes. I realised this some time ago.

 

But De Ruyter, being a unique ship, could easily have been shoehorned into T6.

 

It's not like WG haven't done it before. 

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12 hours ago, LiveWire___ said:

USS Atlanta, a T7 ship, weighed in at 6,718 Long tons to De Ruyter's 6,545 Long Tons. She also had the same weapons, but more of them. 

 

Atlanta and De Ruyter don't have same weapons. Atlanta has 5inch guns, while De Ruyter has 150mm guns.Also Atlanta has 16 guns, 14 guns broadside, to De Ruyter 7, with much better DPM, plus torps which De Ruyter lacks. Atlanta is armed to teeth, De Ruyter is very far from Atlanta. Emerald and Nurnberg are much better comparation and both are much stronger, thanks to very strong torpedo armament. 

 

12 hours ago, LiveWire___ said:

De Ruyter could easily have been a ship from a similar mould, but T6. No problem. 

 

De Ruyter would need to be a premium with a lot of gimmicks to be at T6. Year or origin is not important for tier, its size and armament is. Foe example, you have Tiger '59 on the same tier as Mogami from 1934. As premium T5 would be its maximum, as regular it probably could be T5, but T4 is also fitting.

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2 hours ago, fumtu said:

De Ruyter would need to be a premium with a lot of gimmicks to be at T6.

....and that's exactly what I have been saying. 

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De Ruyter should be premium ship 5 or 6 tier.

Why? Because was one of newest light cruisers in early episode of 2ww with many new solutsolutions and mainly... because it history 

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