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The_EURL_Guy

New German Destroyers Review

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"The biggest mistake you can make when playing ships from the new branch is to rush to a Key Area at the very beginning of a battle"

the biggest mistake is to play them at all :Smile_facepalm:

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Spoiler

Tactics

The biggest mistake you can make when playing ships from the new branch is to rush to a Key Area at the very beginning of a battle. The enemy team will quickly notice your ship due to her high detectability. At the beginning of a battle, German destroyers serve best as support ships that can deal damage over long distances.

 

It's worth noting that they come equipped with the Defensive AA Fire consumable and good AA defenses with a long firing range, which is an atypical feature for destroyers. This will help you fend off enemy squadrons. However, if you don't want to fall under focused enemy fire as a result of being detected by aircraft, we recommend that you deactivate your AA defenses.

 

Their artillery defines a special approach to combat. Their powerful AP shells are most effective against cruisers and battleships. You should have no difficulty hitting enemy ships—the destroyers enjoy good ballistics and high accuracy. You can inflict maximum damage to cruisers by hitting their sides. The most effective tactic to deploy against battleships is to strike their fore and aft ends, as well as their superstructures. Thanks to the enhanced ricochet angles of their AP shells, you can deal significant damage to destroyers if the enemy is turned toward you at a 45-degree angle. However, firing salvos at any destroyers that expose their full broadsides to you will often result in overpenetrations, so it's better to use HE shells. When you encounter armored targets, it's better to use HE shells only when your opponent has turned their bow or stern to face you.

 

In the middle of a battle, when the destroyers have an opportunity to act more freely, you can start capturing Key Areas. However, before doing so, you should carefully study the situation and assess the locations of any enemy ships. If the situation doesn't allow you to capture a Key Area, continue with the tactic of dealing damage from afar.

Don't forget that the German destroyers are equipped with torpedoes that can be effectively deployed against low-mobility targets over long ranges. Due to their short reload time and long range, you can try to surprise the enemy by launching torpedoes into smoke, straits, or Key Areas.

  • too bad that they are DD and occupy a DD slot, so it is kinda their job to spot around key areas
  • Def AA will not help much, as their base AA is just too weak
  • while their guns are powerful, they lack DPM and better make sure that your targets do not shoot back or things can get ugly as they have more firepower and hitpoints than you
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3 hours ago, Zigiran said:

From the wiki: https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Felix_Schultz

 

Pros:

- It floats

 

Cons:

- At least for a while

Its also great for extended cries of "Schuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuultz!" when things go down, which is very often.

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22 hours ago, HMS_Edinburgh_C16 said:

"The biggest mistake you can make when playing ships from the new branch is to rush to a Key Area at the very beginning of a battle"

the biggest mistake is to play them at all :Smile_facepalm:

I understand if the line isn't catering to your playstyle, but I personally disagree. They are a nice line if you like to play gunboats and they're somewhere in between DDs and CLs, without a citadel. I find their accuracy very satisfying and the slow torps catch some players by surprise.

 

17 hours ago, Ubertron_X said:

Its also great for extended cries of "Schuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuultz!" when things go down, which is very often.

Hahahaha :D

 

22 hours ago, ColonelPete said:
  Reveal hidden contents
  • too bad that they are DD and occupy a DD slot, so it is kinda their job to spot around key areas
  • Def AA will not help much, as their base AA is just too weak 
  • while their guns are powerful, they lack DPM and better make sure that your targets do not shoot back or things can get ugly as they have more firepower and hitpoints than you

I disagree a bit about the DPM - since you get more shells on target due to accuracy, which makes up for DPM to a certain degree. You can't outgun everything and you won't be able to dictate the fight, but you got the smoke to disengage if necessary. I play them more like light cruisers and then go in more towards the mid-battle and it has been working for me quite well. I understand the point about a DD slot but then again it's rare that you would have them fill up all DD slots and the same "issue" exists with ships like Khaba.

 

The line won't cater to most players but that's the beauty of our game - if you don't like this line, play one of the many, many others we have available in the game.

 

Greetings, Crysantos

 

 

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On 6/18/2021 at 1:51 PM, Crysantos said:

I disagree a bit about the DPM - since you get more shells on target due to accuracy, which makes up for DPM to a certain degree. You can't outgun everything and you won't be able to dictate the fight, but you got the smoke to disengage if necessary. I play them more like light cruisers and then go in more towards the mid-battle and it has been working for me quite well. I understand the point about a DD slot but then again it's rare that you would have them fill up all DD slots and the same "issue" exists with ships like Khaba.

 

The line won't cater to most players but that's the beauty of our game - if you don't like this line, play one of the many, many others we have available in the game.

Normal DD are already quite accurate, that will not make much difference.

The problem with the DD slot is that there is a good chance that you are the lone DD at your spawn position and your cruisers cannot do the DD job and you cannot wait for another friendly DD being victorious on his flank and coming over, so you have to do the DD job. This is probably one of the reasons Khaba is not that popular either.

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9 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Normal DD are already quite accurate, that will not make much difference.

The problem with the DD slot is that there is a good chance that you are the lone DD at your spawn position and your cruisers cannot do the DD job and you cannot wait for another friendly DD being victorious on his flank and coming over, so you have to do the DD job. This is probably one of the reasons Khaba is no that popular either.

I really feel the difference, I find it very satisfying - about the role, I don't disagree there. But you know what you get yourself into when playing these ships and you adjust accordingly.

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47 minutes ago, Crysantos said:

I really feel the difference, I find it very satisfying - about the role, I don't disagree there. But you know what you get yourself into when playing these ships and you adjust accordingly.

The problem is that when you can not do your "role" this is not only affecting you. Most of the time I as a single player can adjust reasonably well to the ships I play, however doing so may very well "doom" an entire flank or the whole game if the players on that flank do not adjust accordingly. And even then, evasive tactics like surrendering a flank / cap comes with its own set of problems. Thats a general and DD heavy problem, be it either Marceau or Khaba spamming HE from range, or a Friesland or Kitakaze shooting from smoke. Who is doing your job (aka providing spotting and warding off enemy DD torpedo attacks) when your DD isnt doing it?

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Ubertron_X said:

The problem is that when you can not do your "role" this is not only affecting you. Most of the time I as a single player can adjust reasonably well to the ships I play, however doing so may very well "doom" an entire flank or the whole game if the players on that flank do not adjust accordingly. And even then, evasive tactics like surrendering a flank / cap comes with its own set of problems. Thats a general and DD heavy problem, be it either Marceau or Khaba spamming HE from range, or a Friesland or Kitakaze shooting from smoke. Who is doing your job (aka providing spotting and warding off enemy DD torpedo attacks) when your DD isnt doing it?

But that's always the case - we have over 450 ships in the game by now, they all have different playstyles, roles, etc. As a team you need to adapt and leverage these strengths or try to balance out the weaknesses. A Khaba might provide great kiting and remove an important target from range, but you will lose out on cap control. Or the Khaba could work in tandem with a DM and focus down a DD during radar. This challenge is ofc more prominent with DDs since they play such a significant role for caps and spotting, but it also applies to other classes in different ways. At the end of the day it's all about communication and teamplay to get the upper hand, every battle & MM is different.

 

I wouldn't play Elbing in Ranked, but in Randoms it's a fun ship and there it's much more forgiving in its lack of ability to contest caps as well as other DDs.

 

Greetings, Crysantos

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Just now, ColonelPete said:

Normal DD are already quite accurate, that will not make much difference.

I disagree there.

 

DDs often need to shoot at other DDs, which are also small, so the accuracy still matters.

For instance, the Z-31 has about half the linear dispersion of the Maass at the same distance, meaning the target ellipse will be about 25% the size. That's insanely accurate. With the Mass, if you're anywhere past suicidal range, you will miss some shots at the enemy DD even if our aim is on point, while with the Z-31 you will often hit 4/4 even at considerable distance.

 

And since in order to damage BBs and cruisers you often need to hit specific points (citadel, superstructure, upper belt, broadside bow sticking out of an island...), the accuracy matters there, as well.

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1 minute ago, tocqueville8 said:

I disagree there.

 

DDs often need to shoot at other DDs, which are also small, so the accuracy still matters.

For instance, the Z-31 has about half the linear dispersion of the Maass at the same distance, meaning the target ellipse will be about 25% the size. That's insanely accurate. With the Mass, if you're anywhere past suicidal range, you will miss some shots at the enemy DD even if our aim is on point, while with the Z-31 you will often hit 4/4 even at considerable distance.

 

And since in order to damage BBs and cruisers you often need to hit specific points (citadel, superstructure, upper belt, broadside bow sticking out of an island...), the accuracy matters there, as well.

So you notice the difference at long range DD duels....

It is not the new lines job to fire at DD. 

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Just now, ColonelPete said:

So you notice the difference at long range DD duels....

Even at mid-range (i.e. someone else is spotting the enemy DD, or we were basically alone so neither smoked up and we kept shooting at each other as we increased the distance) you can feel the accuracy working in your favor.

 

Also, I notice that it's a lot easier to hit citadels on those juicy mid-tier cruisers: I've had 3 or even 4 critical hits in a single salvo, occasionally.

 

Finally, 4k salvoes on broadsiding BBs are pretty common, and it's also easier to set fires to specific sections of the target.

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I really don't get the what the role of these ships is supposed to be. Having no heal and no dpm means you will trade terribly unless you fire from smoke. But your smoke is pretty bad so it's very limited option. Being a light cruiser without citadel? What's the point when almost no one is going to fire AP at you anyway and HE wrecks you (remember, no heal). Firing from "long" range? While your range (at least on tierX) is comparable to for example french DDs, you don't have the speed to dodge and you're a huge target. And afaik you don't have french saturation either (correct if I'm wrong). You are pretty bad against BBs; AP salvos of couple thousand points each are nice, but not reliable enough and again, you don't have dpm. Torpedos are not reliable enough because of slow speed. You're not much of a spotter because of mediocre stealth. Sure you're accurate but that mostly helps against DDs and CLs which you should not fight anyway. I'd trade it with dpm gladly. You can citadel CLs? Nice but not enough to win against one unless it's already low or you have help.

 

So, in any role, you are worse than <insert ship or line that's good in that role>. And on top of that you take a spot from another, probably much more useful DD.

 

I can think of only one role these ships are somewhat succesful. Benefitting from more useful team mates and selfishly farming damage. If your team isn't performing better than the enemy team, there's very little you can do.

 

Well one thing these ships are very good at is finishing in top three of the losing team.

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On 6/17/2021 at 6:05 PM, Zigiran said:

Also from the wiki: Gustav Julius Maerker - Global wiki. Wargaming.net

Quote

Performance

Gustav-Julius Maerker is a Tier VIII German destroyer currently in early access.

 

Pros:

  • Pro

 

Cons:

  • No engine boost or hydroacoustic search consumables.

 

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On the point, I also can't understand the point of these ships while French DDs exist. I think they fill the light cruiser hunter/ light cruiser role perfectly already. Sure they aren't as accurate and have worse concealment, but their damage output is insane, the accuracy on DDs don't matter much when you're going for the upper belt, they're super fast, they have speshul French DD saturation to make up for the tankiness and guess what they can actually yolo and duel all enemy DDs as well. 

 

And the armor on these ships is really not an upside from my experience. Sure, it will shatter DD HE, but if your opponent knows anything about how the game works they will immediately shift to AP and you're done. That's from experience. With Marceau and Mogador I've practically won literally every single fight I got into against these DDs. Neither of these ships could penetrate the extra thicc side armor, but this line isn't the only line with good AP, you know... If they angle (which takes a lot of time) you don't deal with the extra side plating so you're just fighting a bigger Shimakaze. Couldn't ask for an easier battle. They're extremely vulnerable to torpedoes so smoke farming is not really an effective strategy for these ships. They are huge, they have very bad maneuverability and they don't have any hydro. It's so easy to torp them that I sometimes feel bad. 

 

Perhaps I should play more Vampire II to milk damage from these giant ships, while there are some around. 

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I really enjoy Schultz and Elbing also seems to be good (but I hate the turret layout on her). 

 

They can stand their ground against other DD's (except pure gunboat) thanks to 25mm mid section armor and extremely accurate guns. Even against DD's 10km away most bullets hit, and if they are angled you can use AP and wreck them. 

 

Right know Schultz is one of my favorite DD's. 

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Ok This is my review of this line

I might hurt a lot of sentiments, but whatever ig

 

So I would give this line a rating of 6 or 7 out of 10.

 

These ships are different, and interesting. A breath of fresh air from all the HE spammers. The AP on these things go from good-amazing. This is a branch of mini cruisers. Min cruisers are ships that aren't DDs or cruisers. They are more of a second line DD gun ship. Familiar examples are Khaba, Kleber, Harugumo, Druid, etc. So main points are:-

  • Apart from the T7, their handling is pretty bad
  • Apart from the T7, their conceal is pretty mediocre 
  • The survivability is pretty good, considering these bois don't have a heal
  • Their guns are pretty good, apart from the T7. They have a lot of range, good shell ballistics on the Tier 9 and 10, and good AP shells in all categories, with exceptionally amazing accuracy, high alpha due to a lot of these factors. Her HE shells are subpar considering the reload and caliber, but it still can bring high dmg salvos thnx to the accuracy
  • The torpedoes are what I would describe as sea mines. They have good range, good reload rate, good number (except for GJM), good damage, very good conceal, but very low speed in return. You use these torps for spamming caps, channels, against BBs. The T7 gets all of them except for the dmg. GJM gets the good torps but she doesn't get a high salvo weight on a broadside, but thnx to her torp reload, she can use these torps and guns to kite well. On felix the torps get all the features, and Elbing takes it a step further
  • They are big targets and are not fast 
  • Limited consumables
  • Above average AA on the higher tier ones.
  • At longer ranges, there are major gaps in their superstructure for the torps, and at longer ranges, the freeboard isn't high enough to stand out, so you can get some troll misses on these DDs.

 

So you play these DDs, like cruisers. Or you play them like support gunships. You have good range, so use that range. You want your fights to happen at mid range. That's where you can fight DDs pretty effectively. On the Tier 7, you can citadel cruisers at your tier and lower tiers quite well. On the Tier 8, you gain an extra gun, but that's it, and you can deal good chunks of AP dmg but you can't cit many ships, Felix punishes CLs hard. It can cit CAs at around 6km. She gets a ton of shell velocity (Russian levels) and with that accuracy and with all that, you apply your damage surprisingly well. Elbing is the bane of all cruisers. Her AP alpha is so high that even with over pens you hurt DDs with the same alpha that other DDs would have got with HE. Her turret positioning makes her a good kiter. You spam the torps all the time. You want to fire a lot. This line requires you to think about your strategy to be the most useful to your team. Either as a second line DD, assisting a normal DD in your team, or your DD div mate. Basically where the DD provides torpedo power, spotting and cap contesting, while your sit a few km behind, supporting with your guns, additonal torp power, AA coverage, and smoke if needed. Or as a distracting damage farmer. Where you just pump out damage and enemies start focusing and angling towards you so that your allies can dumpster them, or you chunk them down yourself. The cherry on top is the amazing Iron cross camo which is just amazing (Maple leaf and the American flag perma camo many of the US cruisers get to wear are better, but its a close third in my list of favourite camos).

 

Now why do I rate this 6/10

 

Well that's coz these DDs can't do many DD things and is basically taking a DD slot. I mean you can do it, but you can't do them well. That's the least of my complaints tho. My biggest complaint, is the fact that the T7 and T8 are so meh. T7 is a pile of junk. Like, it cits lower tier cruisers well, but can't cit cruisers of its own tier that well (most cruiser at its tier that is). The AP is still good, coz high alpha and more effectiveness coz DM pen angles. And the 25mm plating is more troll than actual use (GJM suffers from the same problem) unlike the Elbing or Schultz). Everything else about the T7 is trash. Its maneuverability is ok, but not amazing. Conceal is decent at 6.3km. But your offensive power is so limited. The torps have long reload for some reason, and the dmg each torp deals is quite bad. GJM gets better. Her torps get the good reload and good dmg, but you only fire 6 per side. Its a double edged sword. The guns are ok. Good accuracy, good ballistics (ain't getting amazing till the T9), but the AP doesn't have enough pen to cit cruisers. The French DDs have more pen then GJM. But it gets good range and good HP (25k at T8 is no joke). Is it worth it for the T9 and T10? Yes. But it doesn't get a high rating coz its another example of a line where the lower tiers suck, and higher tiers are good.

 

 

Good games Y'all

 

 

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On 6/18/2021 at 7:51 AM, Crysantos said:

The line won't cater to most players but that's the beauty of our game - if you don't like this line, play one of the many, many others we have available in the game.

There's nothing wrong with this line of reasoning, apart from the fact that the new German DDs occupy a DD slot, so putting your team at a disadvantage because - in these ships - it's *much* harder to do a proper DD's job.

 

So, this line not only doesn't cater to most players, but it also puts your team-mates at a disadvantage.

 

(FWIW I don't entirely dislike the T9 and T10, but I certainly don't play them if winning matters.)

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On 6/18/2021 at 5:47 PM, ColonelPete said:

Normal DD are already quite accurate, that will not make much difference.

That is cap. Normal DDs have about 100m disp at 12km, these DDs have about 50m. That's half the disp. It makes so much of a Difference. I suggest playing these DDs first before saying that

On 6/18/2021 at 5:47 PM, ColonelPete said:

The problem with the DD slot is that there is a good chance that you are the lone DD at your spawn position and your cruisers cannot do the DD job and you cannot wait for another friendly DD being victorious on his flank and coming over, so you have to do the DD job. This is probably one of the reasons Khaba is not that popular either.

If you are the lone DD in your team yes. But you can go to a different area of the map and do that role. If your are the only DD on one flank (its quite rare actually, its often 4 or so DDs per team), it can be a problem in domination, but most of the time, the DD is going to come after you, coz ez target. Then you can bait him to shoot you, and the rest of your team will delete him from the server.  And if you are outnumbered on your flank, or outgunned, you can always play the defending role. Khaba was not popular before the rework and buff, but now she is quite common. She ain't smaland popular, but she is popular.

On 6/18/2021 at 7:45 PM, ColonelPete said:

So you notice the difference at long range DD duels....

It is not the new lines job to fire at DD

May I know, where you found this written? If you do find a DD, you can fire at him. In fact the only place where I don't notice the difference is about 4km or less. At long range duels in particular these guns are quite powerful. The HE wrecks modules and does about 2k dmg that DDs struggle to do at those ranges. The AP wrecks them if they angle. You can argue, on paper the DPM is quite low, but it is applied very well, and that was always a characteristic of ze Germans (except for their BBs). Their dmg might not be the highest, but they definitely make up for it by applying it well.

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3 hours ago, totally_potato said:

That is cap. Normal DDs have about 100m disp at 12km, these DDs have about 50m. That's half the disp. It makes so much of a Difference. I suggest playing these DDs first before saying that

 

If you are the lone DD in your team yes. But you can go to a different area of the map and do that role. If your are the only DD on one flank (its quite rare actually, its often 4 or so DDs per team), it can be a problem in domination, but most of the time, the DD is going to come after you, coz ez target. Then you can bait him to shoot you, and the rest of your team will delete him from the server.  And if you are outnumbered on your flank, or outgunned, you can always play the defending role. Khaba was not popular before the rework and buff, but now she is quite common. She ain't smaland popular, but she is popular.

 

May I know, where you found this written? If you do find a DD, you can fire at him. In fact the only place where I don't notice the difference is about 4km or less. At long range duels in particular these guns are quite powerful. The HE wrecks modules and does about 2k dmg that DDs struggle to do at those ranges. The AP wrecks them if they angle. You can argue, on paper the DPM is quite low, but it is applied very well, and that was always a characteristic of ze Germans (except for their BBs). Their dmg might not be the highest, but they definitely make up for it by applying it well.

And I usually hit what I aim at even in other DD. Improving that does not really make a difference. And I also managed to hit the water in front and behind the target with one salvo in german DD at around 6 to 7km.

 

That happens every time you are the lone DD at your spawn position, meaning most of the time (with 4 DD, only 1 of 3 spawn positions have 2 DD). And changing spawn positions from the start is usually a waste of time. You have to know what you are facing that this makes sense. Your enemy DD counterpart can be at a different spawn and changing spawns can make you meet him. Your DD counterpart can also be AFK and changing spawns just costs your team points.

And please look at the Khaba numbers before making such a claim...

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.2dc253a0ec7ed722b1075c76369875b8.png

 

The DPM difference should make this obvious. And yes, my Shima can also shoot at a Minotaur, but that is not her job. Just because you can do something, does not mean it is intended to be so.

And that KM AP wrecks DD happens very rarely. I have tested  that in scores of battles. While some salvos give good results, on average HE does slighty more damage than AP vs DD. Maybe that changes with the Tier IX or X.

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1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

And I usually hit what I aim at even in other DD. Improving that does not really make a difference. And I also managed to hit the water in front and behind the target with one salvo in german DD at around 6 to 7km.

 

That happens every time you are the lone DD at your spawn position, meaning most of the time (with 4 DD, only 1 of 3 spawn positions have 2 DD). And changing spawn positions from the start is usually a waste of time. You have to know what you are facing that this makes sense. Your enemy DD counterpart can be at a different spawn and changing spawns can make you meet him. Your DD counterpart can also be AFK and changing spawns just costs your team points.

And please look at the Khaba numbers before making such a claim...

  Reveal hidden contents

image.thumb.png.2dc253a0ec7ed722b1075c76369875b8.png

 

The DPM difference should make this obvious. And yes, my Shima can also shoot at a Minotaur, but that is not her job. Just because you can do something, does not mean it is intended to be so.

And that KM AP wrecks DD happens very rarely. I have tested  that in scores of battles. While some salvos give good results, on average HE does slighty more damage than AP vs DD. Maybe that changes with the Tier IX or X.

I've got some numbers for you too

image.thumb.png.00d8df42cbc7ad853cca47486522b9aa.png

It shows Khaba is at the middle of the pack when it comes to the number of battles played. She also has mid of the pack WR and highest avg dmg (not counting druid coz she was released this patch). So calling her unpopular is cap and a half

 

You hit with every DD, but these Germans hits more shells on their target especially DDs. Also ofc these guns will miss at times. Its so pin point, that a slight mis aim will miss your shots. But with proper aim you will hit atleast 5 out of 6 shells at around 12 km. Try that in any other 6 gun armed DD. 

 

And while you can't cap. Doesn't mean you can't spot. If you have to face a DD, you can just bait him to shoot you, and your team will either drive him out or kill him. Yes while its hard to fight a DD head on, in particular the full on gunboats, or even the good gunboats with fair torps like Daring, there a number of ways to fight him. 

 

The guns on Shima are relatively weak so she isn't supposed to shoot, offensively anyway, unless a DD is chasing it. In Elbing your job is to use your guns, deal dmg, no matter the target. So saying its not supposed to shoot DDs, is completely wrong. She isn't suited to fight DDs on a head to head fight using one ammo braindeadly, but that doesn't mean, if she gets the opportunity she shouldn't shoot them.

 

Her AP on DDs deals on average, 2k dmg, with 4 or 5 overpens on Elbing. So she (or he, coz its German) can do about the same amount of dmg to DD with AP overpens, as other DDs would do with HE. Her HE on full HP, unsaturated DDs, can do a lot of dmg coz she hits more shells. 

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