200 mm SALUTING guns ???

[Beastofwar]

This is beyond rediculous....and since German CV prove it is completely unnecessary to nerf range so much ( DD do not drop dead in droves around them......) as they are still more inaccurate then German secondaries....

 

Type Naval gun Place of origin Japan Service history In service 1926 - 1945[1] Used by Imperial Japanese Navy Wars Second World War Production history Manufacturer Kure Naval Arsenal Muroran Ironworks[2] Produced 1 GÔ (Mark 1) : 1923 2 GÔ (Mark 2) : 1932 No. built ~300[2] Specifications Mass 1 GÔ (Mark 1) : 17.6 tonnes[2] 2 GÔ (Mark 2): 18.7 tonnes Length 1 GÔ (Mark 1) : 10 metres (33 ft) 2 GÔ (Mark 2) : 10.31 metres (33.8 ft) Barrel length 1 GÔ (Mark 1) : 9.144 metres (30.00 ft) 2 GÔ (Mark 2) : 10 metres (33 ft)[2] Shell 1 GÔ (Mark 1) : 110 kilograms (240 lb) 2 GÔ (Mark 2) : 126 kilograms (278 lb) Calibre 1 GÔ (Mark 1) : 20-centimetre (7.874 in) 2 GÔ (Mark 2) : 8-inch (203.2 mm) [2] Muzzle velocity 835 m/s (2740 ft/sec)[2] Maximum firing range 29 kilometres (18 mi)[2]
29 kilometer !!!   But   Aircraft carrier installations   Starboard quarter of Kaga with three casemate guns visible. Mark I guns were installed in casemates with a maximum elevation of 25 degrees limiting maximum range to 22 kilometers (14 mi). Aircraft carriers originally had four guns originally mounted in two type B twin turrets with a maximum elevation of 70 degrees. These were transferred to casemates in Kaga in 1934 and simply removed from Akagi in 1936.   Still 22 (!!) km....   Why are these useless guns ???????  5,4 km is completely unnecessaray and rediclous for the caliber.

[ColonelPete]

Why should that be saluting guns?

They do damage.

[MrWastee]

4 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Why should that be saluting guns?

They do damage.

it's a buff sec range for cv's thread in disguise. nothing really to see here.

 

*add in the make-secs-player-usable thread and the evul plan reveals itself

[Beastofwar]

2 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Why should that be saluting guns?

They do damage.

 

Not they do not....5.4 km range at Tier VIII-Tier X  is beyond rediculous and these guns do not have improved german dispersion either.

 

For guns that IRL had 22 km range !!

[MrWastee]

1 minute ago, Beastofwar said:

 

Not they do not....5.4 km range at Tier VIII-Tier X  is beyond rediculous and these guns do not have improved german dispersion either.

 

For guns that IRL had 22 km range !!

balance! bye...

[Kartoffelmos]

Because balance? Because 5 guns per side would not amount to much given the secondary accuracy? Because even if WG increased the range to 12 km, they would still not see any use? Because the damage output from said guns would be extremely low? Because you have to be some kind of potato to rely on your secondaries to do your work for you in a CV?

 

So many questions, yet apparently so few answers...

[Karasu_Browarszky]

Must be for some real big shot.

[Ronchabale]

Yeah, agree it is stupid

Even the Bofors 40mm gun i was on during my army service had an effective range of 12.5 km with decent accuracy

Max range was a lot further.

 

 

[Beastofwar]

And i forgot ot mention their reload is 15 seconds so :

 

- extreme slow ROF

- extreme low range

- extreme low accuracy ( not German )

- gun angles very limited, only toward the rear

 

So why exaclty must secondaries be nerfed in such a unreasonable way ?

 

This has nothing to do with what it's planes can or cannot do as Graf Zeppelin's  fighters are far from incapable of dealing with enemy DD either AND have the most accurate secondaries and reasonable range in game.

 

No CV captain ( except for again German ones ) will ever take the "Close Quarters Expert" or "Secondary Armament Expert" skills for guns with such bad and for the tier unusable stock values.

 

I find it hard to accept 127 mm caliber guns have such low range for CV, but heavy 200 mm ones being nerfed to extreme low values ? That should be corrected.

 

This is rediculous ( and harmful to FDR's planes bad efficency vs fast DD at tier X )  too

 

ype	Naval gun
Place of origin	United States
Service history
In service	1945 – 1993: USN 1945-1980, JMSDF 1958-1993
Used by	U.S. Navy and Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force
Wars	World War II Korean War Vietnam War
Production history
Designer	Bureau of Ordnance
Designed	1940
Produced	1945 – 1959
Specifications
Mass	5,361 lb (2,432 kg) (without breech)
Barrel length	270 in (6.9 m) bore (54 calibers)
Shell	70 lb (32 kg) Mark 42 armor-piercing
Caliber	5 inches (127 mm)
Elevation	−10° to +85°
Traverse	−150° to +150°
Rate of fire	15–18 rounds per minute
Muzzle velocity	2,650 ft/s (810 m/s)
Effective firing range	19,000-yard (17,374 m) at 20° elevation
Maximum firing range	25,909-yard (23,691 m) at 45° elevation 51,600-foot (15,728 m) at 85° elevation (anti-aircraft ceiling)

 

17km - 23 km......not 5 km .....

[ColonelPete]

31 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

 

Not they do not....5.4 km range at Tier VIII-Tier X  is beyond rediculous and these guns do not have improved german dispersion either.

 

For guns that IRL had 22 km range !!

It is a CV. How much more help do you need?

[Beastofwar]

8 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

It is a CV.

 

You do not want to acknowlegde secondaries already nerfed to be  incapable of hitting anything.........so it is completely unecessary to nerf their range as well.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

4 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

 

You do not want to acknowlegde secondaries already nerfed to be  incapable of hitting anything.........so it is completely unecessary to nerf their range as well.

 

Dunno, I've seen some CV's pushing for caps early in the battle, we don't want them to be too stronk, do we?

[ColonelPete]

1 minute ago, Beastofwar said:

 

You do not want to acknowlegde secondaries already nerfed to be  incapable of hitting anything.........so it is completely unecessary to nerf their range as well.

It does not matter.

They were also pretty useless in reality...

23 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

And i forgot ot mention their reload is 15 seconds so :

 

- extreme slow ROF

- gun angles very limited, only toward the rear

 

• they are old 203mm guns, what did you expect?
• that is how they were installed

[doerhoff_damian]

if you want to Brawl with with your CV than I am all for it in my Battleship.

But for Balance Reasons the Ranges for Main and Secondary Battery are alot Shorter and you can´t expect to have more Range than a BB from the same Nation on the Same Tier.

Maybe you can ask WG to give you 7 Km Base Range on your Secondaries but don´t expect anythink near the historic Range.

[Takethatyoubeast]

The guns on both Kaga and Akagi in the rear case mates were too low in the hull to be of practical use in anything other than a calm sea

 

Different books / programmes also indicate that they lacked the necessary range finding equipment to be accurate beyond short range 

 

Might be one to ask Drachinifel on you tube as he is a fountain of great knowledge 

[Beastofwar]

I dont want to brawl with CV unless it is another CV in rare sole survivor situations you both go for a winning cap. I am well aware lots of CV have Cruiser hulls or far worse and lack heals that high tier BB and Cruisers have. It is not a serious option to move close to enemy ships.

 

But isn't it rediculous a German CV will clap your behind with light 105 mm guns while you have heavy 200 mm's ?? Just because your guns are nerfed to extreme low range...for nothing ??

 

I  do wish for somewhat more reasonable stock defensive secondary guns, so that the option to invest points in them ( which are now completely unattractive even for German CV ) will produce somewhat acceptable defensive guns that can hit DD coming much too close ( <7 km ) at least a few times.

 

Now these absurd ranged secondaries can be made to fire at 6 km targets with unreasonable point investment, but they won't hit a barn door at stonethrowing distance. The will never have enough ROF either....So they need to be extended to at least 8 km.

 

 

[Kartoffelmos]

1 hour ago, Beastofwar said:

You do not want to acknowlegde secondaries already nerfed to be  incapable of hitting anything.........so it is completely unecessary to nerf their range as well.

 

So instead of missing at ~5 km, you want to miss harder at 10+ km?

[Karasu_Browarszky]

20 minutes ago, Kartoffelmos said:

 

So instead of missing at ~5 km, you want to miss harder at 10+ km?

 

If you look at what @Takethatyoubeast posted earlier:

54 minutes ago, Takethatyoubeast said:

The guns on both Kaga and Akagi in the rear case mates were too low in the hull to be of practical use in anything other than a calm sea

 

Different books / programmes also indicate that they lacked the necessary range finding equipment to be accurate beyond short range 

 

Might be one to ask Drachinifel on you tube as he is a fountain of great knowledge 

 

It's interesting how the gun crews were mostly futile because of lack of range finders, and being too low on the hull. Compare that to the in game destroyers, and you get the idea how distorted the dodgy spotting mechanics in the game are. It seems to me, that the effective spotting range of the DD's without radar should be somewhere around that 10 click mark or so, depending on weather/visibility conditions.

 

Whereas the taller ships should be able to spot the DD's much much more easily. Someone with better knowledge might be able to come up with more accurate ranges, but as a rule of thumb it seems to me that the ships should be able to spot almost anything large enough within the radius of their main gun range. By spotting I mean detecting, not necessarily able to reliably hit.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

2 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

 

Not they do not....5.4 km range at Tier VIII-Tier X  is beyond rediculous and these guns do not have improved german dispersion either.

 

For guns that IRL had 22 km range !!

 

I fully agree...

please give all (!) secondary guns their real ranges... not only CVs of course, but all... oh, the lulz we would have...

[bEtHeNs]

17 minutos antes, Deckeru_Maiku dijo:

 

I fully agree...

please give all (!) secondary guns their real ranges... not only CVs of course, but all... oh, the lulz we would have...

I would not mind to have a battle mode with more realistic stats.

 

[Beastofwar]

18 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

 

please give all (!) secondary guns their real ranges... not only CVs of course, but all... oh, the lulz we would have...

 

DD have 2/3 of RL gun range ( ~ 11 km )  ......so why not gimp CV secondaries of the same caliber to 1/2 their RL range ? ( ~8 km )

 

Seems fair enough as secondries still spray like drunken madmen.......what is there to fear ? The one stray 200 mm HE hit in hundreds of matches that explodes your DD instantly ? For being closer to the CV then you should be ?

 

It is however intollerable that defensive guns will not fire at all untill a DD is so close it can't miss it's torpedo aiming. Even not the most  greenhorn DD player.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

21 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

 

I fully agree...

please give all (!) secondary guns their real ranges... not only CVs of course, but all... oh, the lulz we would have...

 

To me it wouldn't be about the range per se, it would be about how effective they are against DD's. The problem here is, that DD's can do their HE spam well outside the range of the secondaries, which largely defeats their purpose. Apparently, this is the sort of 'balance' that the 'community' wants, though.

 

@Beastofwar IMHO, the DD main gun ranges should be comparable to the BB secondary max range, because we all know that it is far easier for a smaller ship to hit a bigger ship than the other way round.

 

https://www.navygeneralboard.com/how-battleship-secondary-armament-evolved/

[Beastofwar]

12 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

 

To me it wouldn't be about the range per se, it would be about how effective they are against DD's. The problem here is, that DD's can do their HE spam well outside the range of the secondaries, which largely defeats their purpose. Apparently, this is the sort of 'balance' that the 'community' wants, though.

 

@Beastofwar IMHO, the DD main gun ranges should be comparable to the BB secondary max range, because we all know that it is far easier for a smaller ship to hit a bigger ship than the other way round.

 

I have no problem being chased by HE shelling DD at their max gun range. For that you have planes as your ranged weapon. He might win, you might win....depending on what planes your CV has ( left )

 

I have a problem with DD launching so close you have no chance they miss at all. Secondary guns should be able to keep them at >7 km at least. Fair to most DD's torpedo range which is 8 km or better ( few exceptions but those are gunships )  certainly fair to their main guns.

 

I have no problem with DD still trying to charge and do a driveby torpedoing ( i do that too in DD, many screenshots of that ! ) but when they do, they should run the gauntlet and take risks !

 

 

[Deckeru_Maiku]

Nice to see that some two really special people finally found something to agree on...

 

For me it would only be the fun to be had when taking out my Mikasa and seeing her 152mm secondary guns blast other ships at ~10 klicks range or so...

[Beastofwar]

2 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

Nice to see that some two really special people finally found something to agree on...

 

For me it would only be the fun to be had when taking out my Mikasa and seeing her 152mm secondary guns blast other ships at ~10 klicks range or so...

 

That is why i sold it....that ship is nerfed beyond reason also.

 

Asif the reworked captain skill nerfs make reasonable range suddenly very dangerous......but at least the guns will fire and you have a chance on hitting.