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Combat Discipline: Disabling Friendly Fire

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When this was announced  I just thought "Take away the damage and that's going to be great"  Whats with all the :etc_swear:ing about with everything else,   :Smile_facepalm:Wargaming, If it ain't Broke, Break It :Smile_facepalm:

 

                     

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Hi guys,

 

I am agreeing with most of the changes but disabling the friendly fire is a bit to much.

 

It will transform the game in to an arcade. 

 

Knowing that you do not make any dmg and it will be just an warning, will make people pron to torp spawn.

Since you are not doing this every battle and it does not affect the team mates that are hit in that particular battle players will change tactics to do this.

 

On the other hand if you have the miss fortune and somehow one of your team mates deliberately gets in the path of one of your torps, it is not really fare to lose all the income for that battle.

 

As I mentioned at the beginning I think that it is a bit to much.

 

Just an opinion.

 

All the best.

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This change makes no sense. Friendly fire is just what it is and it should cause damage with all the consequences. Instead ramming a friendly ship should cause the same damage as ramming an enemy. Of cause that is annoying and frustrating but that is how it was in reality.

 

The game has more important issues that should be solved, e.g. the report and compliment system. Currently you get reported manytimes because somebody is just a little salty. This happens to CVs or even to players in the upper score. The issue is, that reports provide no feedback about the reason for being reported. Hence everybody reporting somebody should be forced to leave a comment (e.g. 50 char, english). Using a parser could prevent comments like, bla bla bla or acbasjhreuhre.

 

Or friendly fire is not on purpose all the time. I have seen players that became teamkillers just because they were trying to support a BB in a dance of death. Hence the system should definately consider the caused damage and the players contribute to the battle. Or the system should ask the player that was hit by a team mate if this player consider it as support fire or friendly fire on purpose.

 

But with the announced change WoW becames more and more to some kind of arcade shooter. Why do you always break something that is working fine? To satisfy those players not able to watch out or play careful? Everybody has to have an eye on the map and to the battle ground. Someone fireing torps from the second line not considering that someone at the front line could turn and cross the torp path has to learn it that hard way, e.g. by increasing the penatly by the amount of reports. And in case the team looses because of such players the other will report them.

 

And disconnecting shouldn't be quoted. I don't believe that someone you wants to leave a match to start a new one turns off the computer or removes the network cable. And nowadays it is state of the art to identify if a client was disconnected due to a crash or network error or if a player is afk.

 

To cut a long story short: I don't like this change and there a multiple different ways to take care of friendly fire and teamkillers or to really improve the game.

 

 

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On 6/11/2021 at 5:04 PM, Zigiran said:

@YabbaCoe Can you confirm that torps count as 1 hit for the 40 / 50 required hit to get a warning?

 

Edit: and if it does count as 1, could you maybe update the article to show that there as well?

Torp count as 1... every single hit by any type or armament, that you control (so no secondaries), is counted and it doesn't matter how much damage it would normally do.

And honestly, this number is very high. So if somebody will manage to turn pink, it would be far from being accidental and therefore punishment is justified.

 

On 6/12/2021 at 1:27 AM, GoneFishingAgain said:

Disabling friendly fire is a terrible idea, it dumbs the game down.

 

KEEP TORPEDO WARNING!!!

We will think, it to probably create something like green torpedo warning, or something new for allied torps. But so far this changes will reach 0.10.5 in a state without warnings.

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And for non combat there is no punishment? Those that only navigate around and shoot few salvos here and there making a team crippled there are no sanctions? 

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1 hour ago, YabbaCoe said:

Torp count as 1... every single hit by any type or armament, that you control (so no secondaries), is counted and it doesn't matter how much damage it would normally do.

And honestly, this number is very high. So if somebody will manage to turn pink, it would be far from being accidental and therefore punishment is justified.

 

We will think, it to probably create something like green torpedo warning, or something new for allied torps. But so far this changes will reach 0.10.5 in a state without warnings.

 

I would actually Suggest to make it Slightly Dynamic.

Or maybe Set a Dead Timer.

 

The Reason being a Simple Example.

 

If I am in a Frederick the Great. I am very Big and have only 8 Guns that Fire Slowly. So if I am Zoomed in an Fire at someone. And an Ally Decides to just Snuggle up to me in front of my Guns.

I.ll only get 8 Counts at best. And likely less cause alot will still Fly over him or go by his Sides due to me being so Big. And the Warning will Flash a Second Later in my Eyes. So I will be Reacting and not Fire again over 20 Seconds later unless I first Cleared him out or moved away.

 

If I am in a Harugumo. I am very Small and have 10 Guns which are Rapid Firing. So if I am Zoomed and Fire at someone out of my Smoke. And an Ally Decides to do the same as above. I have already hit him 10 Times and I need to React in but a Second after the Warning as otherwise I hit him 10 times again.

If I am actually Focused on the Enemy and thus Fail to Realize it. I may get the 50 Hits quite Quickly and turn Pink.

 

At the same Time. If I am in a Yoshino. I can leisurely Launch my 20km Torps right from Second line. Because its just 16 Torps Max. So even if I Managed to hit all my torps on my Teammates Twice. Nothing will happen.

 

 

 

Two Potential Solutions.

 

1.

Increase the Hit Number Limit to a Dynamic Value.

For example.

The Value could be changed depending on Ship Type.

BBs getting only 20

Cruisers 50

and DDs 100

Torps should Count for 5 Points tough. (to Prevent DDs from just using it as a Blank Check and Spam Torps at Allies.)

 

 

2.

Or use a Deadtimer. So if a Salvo hits an Ally. Then it Counts hits for 2 Seconds. But after these 2 Seconds has a 10 Second Dead Timer where Further Hits are not Counted.

So only the Hits from the First Salvo are Counted.

For BBs and most Heavy Cruisers this would mean all Shots are Counted. As their Reload is Slower. But for DDs and Spamming Cruisers this would get some Leeway. As the Shells still in the Air from Firing before the First even Landed would not be Counted.

Likewise if the DD would not React Immediately upon someone snuggling into his Smoke while Spamming HE at an Enemy. Would not end up Accidently Punished by this :)

 

 

 

Just my 2 Cents.

 

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2 hours ago, YabbaCoe said:

We will think, it to probably create something like green torpedo warning, or something new for allied torps. But so far this changes will reach 0.10.5 in a state without warnings.

OK, so after 0.10.5 hits I'll take a break to keep my sanity ... or transition to something that does not use torps primarily like a Khaba f.e.

 

First you force DDs to hug team mates with CV rework and then you make them even more difficult to play because catching their torps (to steal the kill f.e.) penalizes only the DD and never the offender .... Yes torping from back line etc etc ... but that actually makes the class more difficult to play on top of everything else ... so I hope the BBabies will complain about HE spam from smoke more and more since the other options are becoming extinct ...

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What a silly change.

 

So this will mean even more DDs hiding in the backline spamming torpedoes...

 

Definetely not a change that makes me want to play the game again (on a break since the skill overhaul bs in March). :cap_cool:

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So.. now you have put cotton tips on the friendly end of the torpedoes, NOW RELEASE KITAKAMI for free EXP!!!!

 

 

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On 6/11/2021 at 5:42 PM, hardkur911 said:

i can assure u i will sail i your torps if u torp from behind me , u dont care about me i dont care about u simple

So an Asashio with 20 km torps launches his torpedoes and 15 km later a green bb turns into those torpedoes. Is that fair for the Asashio? There are always players who forget to look around every now and then. Especially those with a bb with 6 km torpedos that they are obsessed to launch no matter the cost in hitpoints. 

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19 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

OK, so after 0.10.5 hits I'll take a break to keep my sanity ... or transition to something that does not use torps primarily like a Khaba f.e.

 

First you force DDs to hug team mates with CV rework and then you make them even more difficult to play because catching their torps (to steal the kill f.e.) penalizes only the DD and never the offender .... Yes torping from back line etc etc ... but that actually makes the class more difficult to play on top of everything else ... so I hope the BBabies will complain about HE spam from smoke more and more since the other options are becoming extinct ...

So how this change will change the gameplay of Khaba exactly, according to you?

We know, that it can happen, that a DD decides to catch allied torps to steal the kill. It won't be nice, but it can happen. But we won't penalize the one sending torps. Well he can be penalized, if he hits 40 torpedoes to the same ally, which is basically impossible for a coinscidence. 

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Seems to me they are turning off the torp warning as it would be very confusing getting all those warnings going off and you could turn to avoid and give broadside to the enemy.

What will happen now is that a cap with any BB in it will get spammed from both sides and let a higher power sort them out.

 

It was literally the first scenario I thought off now when you have an enemy BB going to ram you cant do nothing to help as you might kill the friendly.

Now you can just fire at the pair and only damage the enemy.

This idea works for other scenario's as well as ramming. any time a group of BB are in close contact really.

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1 minute ago, YabbaCoe said:

So how this change will change the gameplay of Khaba exactly, according to you?

We know, that it can happen, that a DD decides to catch allied torps to steal the kill. It won't be nice, but it can happen. But we won't penalize the one sending torps. Well he can be penalized, if he hits 40 torpedoes to the same ally, which is basically impossible for a coinscidence. 

I know your (or my) ENglish is not the best, but I meant to say I will use the Khaba exactly because it does not use torpedoes as a primary weapon system (or at all in most games).

 

And you still don't understand that eating teammates torpedoes on purpose to prevent him from killing your target is a penalty as well because that teammate does not get the XP and credits from the damage/kill ? In a normal system you'd not do that as you'd lose a lot of HP. Now you can freely stop him from torping, he gets reflected damage, you get NO PENALTY and get XP/credits on top for stealing the kill/damage.

 

It's not that hard to comprehend now is it ? Just imagine 2 DDs sharing a smoke in a game which is not that uncommon ... in the current system they'd stay clear of each other because team damage. In the new system, one can block the other as much as he wants and even force him out of smoke as there's no penalty for that behaviour anymore ...

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42 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

I know your (or my) ENglish is not the best, but I meant to say I will use the Khaba exactly because it does not use torpedoes as a primary weapon system (or at all in most games).

 

And you still don't understand that eating teammates torpedoes on purpose to prevent him from killing your target is a penalty as well because that teammate does not get the XP and credits from the damage/kill ? In a normal system you'd not do that as you'd lose a lot of HP. Now you can freely stop him from torping, he gets reflected damage, you get NO PENALTY and get XP/credits on top for stealing the kill/damage.

 

It's not that hard to comprehend now is it ? Just imagine 2 DDs sharing a smoke in a game which is not that uncommon ... in the current system they'd stay clear of each other because team damage. In the new system, one can block the other as much as he wants and even force him out of smoke as there's no penalty for that behaviour anymore ...

Regarding eating allied torpedoes on purpose, in this case, how do you think we can punish those, who would do that on purpose.

We changed the system because we had plenty of occasions, when somebody decided to damage or even kill an ally, out of anger, or for any other weird reason. This actually leads to losing HP even though you were the victim, or even losing two ships at the beginning of the battle. When somebody entered a torps of an ally, basically both were punished - the victim lost HP, or a ship itself, and the one who sent torps were punished for team damage, so basically also lose HP. 

 

In the battle environment you basically can't reach 100% fairness, as there will unfortunately always be players, who are not playing very fair and thinking about sportsmanlike behaviour. 

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9 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

Regarding eating allied torpedoes on purpose, in this case, how do you think we can punish those, who would do that on purpose.

We changed the system because we had plenty of occasions, when somebody decided to damage or even kill an ally, out of anger, or for any other weird reason. This actually leads to losing HP even though you were the victim, or even losing two ships at the beginning of the battle. When somebody entered a torps of an ally, basically both were punished - the victim lost HP, or a ship itself, and the one who sent torps were punished for team damage, so basically also lose HP. 

 

In the battle environment you basically can't reach 100% fairness, as there will unfortunately always be players, who are not playing very fair and thinking about sportsmanlike behaviour. 

Let's put it simply:

 

You are removing team damage from the VICTIM, but you are keeping the penalty on the PERPETRATOR. Imagine you'd hit somebody in the face but you cannot do any harm to him, but you still pay the fine for injuring him/her. Do you think that is fair ?  Or even logical ?

 

Either remove team damage completely with no penalties or keep the current system. Also remove any warnings/effects from team damage. Torpedoes hitting an ally will vanish (as if they were not armed) so the ally is not disturbed by the effects. No torpedo warning indicator for friendly torps. Same for main battery hits.

 

This will remove any satisfaction from the griefers while keeping a penalty: Their detection penalty when shooting main battery.

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1 hour ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Let's put it simply:

 

You are removing team damage from the VICTIM, but you are keeping the penalty on the PERPETRATOR. Imagine you'd hit somebody in the face but you cannot do any harm to him, but you still pay the fine for injuring him/her. Do you think that is fair ?  Or even logical ?

Let's put it simply ... try to read the news.

 

Your comparison doesn't make any sense, since you won't get a penalty / fine at all as long as you don't do it intentional repeatedly 40-50 times. How often does it happen that you accidentally hit the same guy 40 times? If that does happen to you ... ever ... then there must be something seriously wrong with whatever you're doing in this game. 

 

You just miss out on the potential damage your torps / shells could've gotten if they hit an enemy - That's it. And to fix that you should probably adjust your aim and decision making before blaming anyone or anything else.

 

Jesus, you definitely understand why the games needs to become simpler with every patch, after you took a look at quite a few of the comments in this forum. Reading comprehension and logical thinking seems to be missing quite a lot here.

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53 minutes ago, Lipziger said:

Let's put it simply ... try to read the news.

 

Your comparison doesn't make any sense, since you won't get a penalty / fine at all as long as you don't do it intentional repeatedly 40-50 times. How often does it happen that you accidentally hit the same guy 40 times? If that does happen to you ... ever ... then there must be something seriously wrong with whatever you're doing in this game. 

 

You just miss out on the potential damage your torps / shells could've gotten if they hit an enemy - That's it. And to fix that you should probably adjust your aim and decision making before blaming anyone or anything else.

 

Jesus, you definitely understand why the games needs to become simpler with every patch, after you took a look at quite a few of the comments in this forum. Reading comprehension and logical thinking seems to be missing quite a lot here.

Well ... you still did not disprove what I said and my comparison is correct still. You are hung up on technicalities like number of hits but you are ignoring the principle.

 

You are like "Yeah but the death sentence is only enacted after 40 attempted murders even if the victim is immortal and cannot be killed...", see the problem ? What they are doing is NOT solving any problem. As long as the damage impact effects are there, you can still annoy people to your heart content. You just need to count the hits, that's all. And you have an effective measure to deprive torpedo kills without any penalty to yourself.

 

I'll tell you a secret, the griefers don't care about their team winning or losing, they care only about their fun griefing somebody. And the means are still there. With a less severe penalty from 0.10.5 ... Yes the current system punishes the whole team because they lose 2 ships. But that should be the incentive for the remaining players to report this and for WG to actually BAN people even if they paid them money. Many other games do publish ban lists and similar. WG does not for some perverted reason. I guess that's because they actually do not want to ban people so they can still get money from them.

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Ok, about this patch...

 

1) Friendly fire. Is that really a big issue? I played +18000 matches and i would say that perhaps 5 of those (max) i got killed by intentional friendly fire and couple of other times unitentional. In my opinion WG are delivering a bad fix to a extremly small problem by disabling friendly fire. However you might create new problems. Now DD´s can spray torps into a brawling situation without the risk of sinking an allied ship. I recently had a really good match in my NC. At the end of this match I contested the center CAP and ended up in very close brawl with a Bismarck. We both turned left in a dance to the death. An enemy DD tried to save the situation by firing torps at me but hit the Bismarck killing him instead and I then managed to finish off the DD. This was WoWs at its finest and also extremly fun. Moments like that are now gone I guess. The game gets even more simplified and dull as a result of this patch.

 

2) Bots and non-active players. Now THAT IS AN ISSUE! I´m glad WG are adressing it, but not sure if the approach is correct. As someone said you can get disconnected either by bad service from WG or your ISP. Should you get punished for that? I should be fairly simple to pinpoint the worst offenders and bann them. For example: Look at the guys playing Midway CV. Look at the ones with the lowest PR and how many games they played. Is the result conistent with active gamplay?

That´s the quesstion you need to ask and there is the base for a good solution!

 

Finally, I would suggest you do the following to improve the gamplay experience:

 

Quilification league for random battle. For example; if your PR is bad and also your average damage you should have to play in the qualification league untill your stats improve to a least "below average" level. The frustration you experience by having really bad players in your team creates a bad community. People tend to lash out in the chat not knowing if the person on the receiving end is a 5 year old who got an account from his dad or a mentally disabled person. Do they deserve the crap storm they get?? I have lashed out too from time to time and I´m not free from sin in this regard. I got a 24-h ban once by telling a CV player that his gameplay was "shitty". Maybe i deserved the punishment, but it made me think twice.

 

I´m sure this would result in a general better climate and much lesser frustration.

 

Improve the MM. This is horrible today and I´m really questioning the so called randomness. Yes I´m running MM monitor. When you are alone with 11 super potatos against a pro team with zero chance to win then the game its just a waste of time. Games that last 7-8 min are NOT FUN!!! DD balance needs to improved also regarding the skill level. Four potato DDs against four good ones - guess the outcome! The bad ones rush in and get killed after max 2 min then your whole team get passified.

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On 6/11/2021 at 3:39 PM, Wulffstein said:

Or, more realistically I think, it will entice people to sail straight into enemy fire as soon as they get the warning, as there is no more to gain from that battle. 

And it makes it easy for toxic players to troll. It will be easy for fast and maneuverable destroyer to sail into allied torps. They will take no damage, but the offender will not take any XP or credits. It can be used to "steal" torpedo kills from allies, to take the kill for yourself.

But time will tell.  

I can see a whole new way of griefing, That as you described, and ramming to cause team mates to lose credits, skill points, and waste camo ETC.

 

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Another great game falls into the 'play with your eyes closed' toilet.

 

Being a good player was about

  • not dropping torps into the path of friendlies
  • holding off on that broadside because there was a friendly DD about to cross your beam
  • keeping one eye on the friendly DD that will probably salvo torps across your bow

Now we can just steam around the map not giving a flip about friendlies.

 

In my 30 years of gaming I have seen so many games go down the 'no need to try' path.

 

So sad

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So disappointed to see this change go live, particularly in CBs. Removing team damage removes so much tension and enjoyment from tight situations. The obscene penalties for causing no damage to allies are the icing on the poop cake.

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Now botting scripts will be enhanced to spam torps at every reload. And Yes - there are a lot of farming bots. You can see some of them them using their consumables in the same moment when game start, exactly as WG bots do. Previously i thought that are just "playing for fun" players, but checked some of them. Last one had >20k games in coop with red statistics, using only secondaries (0 % hits from main batteries, so it was very simple script) while in random he had excellent ones.

 

At least he was farming in coop, but now he can farm even more in other modes too. Stationary Shima or Asashio behind friendly lines should be a perfect candidate for such a role. GG.

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The straw that broke the camel's back. More dumbing down, because there weren't enough "casual players" in the game already, apparently. Selling my accounts as soon as this goes live.

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