Submarine Testing

[AlexeiCrimson]

1 hour ago, Carandraug said:

Main problem is the subs just dont fit into this game at all and WG has chance of snowball in hell to actually make it playable.

 

There are so many absolutely stupid ideas they are trying to push.... For starters the whole concept of homing torps is pure idiocy, make them hit harder but just use normal targetting. Get rid of the whole diving capacity and bring back the normal battery system with recharging on surface. Secondaries are a meme and total joke, not meant to be used for a real fight. Also if you cram stupid subs into our throats , then you need to raise the amount of ships in the matches. Otherwise it's just not gonna be fun at all, it's already infested with too many ships playing their own minigame (Cancer Vehicles for starters) and not being a part of the actual battle with consequences.

 

Subs would be perfect for a separate Convoy mode, which could be potentially very popular. But trying to force them into Randoms and Ranked (lol) is just absolute and unfiltered drunk madness. But hey it's WG we are talking about...

Honestly it is not that bad. I can understand you personally not enjoying them, but nobody forces you to play them. The "takes away surface ship slots" argument stopped being relevant when they gave all ships depth charges. Now everyone can damage Subs, and they cannot stay submerged forever. So they are just as easy to kill as anything else other than CVs, which are still actually a broken class. That said, the game is definitely at the point where we need another slot on each team. That is true regardless of Subs being added or not.

 

Not sure where to put feedback for them this time anyways. So i will put it here. Only played a little today...

 

Dive Capacity - The big change. It is terrible. My fully upgraded T6 German Sub(highest DC out of the two we have) has like 4 minutes of battery. This is without considering the extra drain from being spotted. This is nowhere near enough for Subs to use over the course of a match. Quite simply is not enough. Ive seen Subs use it up during the first 6-7 minutes of a match. If you get targetted by a CV, you are extra screwed because they can either murder you with HE rockets, or drain your very limited supply of DC in the time it takes you to dive to maximum depth(so you can no longer be spotted). It encourages camping at max distance spamming homing torps, which is a slow, boring playstyle that gets you very little credit.

 

Periscope Depth - Why does this exist? It gives you more concealment, sure, but it also drains DC and immediately maxes out your concealment if you ping. What is the point here? Only use unguided torps? They are incredibly hard to aim, and Subs turn like BBs, so its hard to get into good positions for broadsides.

 

Deck Gun - Nice to see, but it does nothing. Just and FYI to everyone, do not expect this to help you ever. Which is fine.

 

Homing Torpedoes - Liking the improved homing so far. Still easy to dodge, but that is fine. They turn much better now. Speaking of torpedoes, were we not supposed to have a new type of torpedo? I remember that being teased a few weeks ago.

 

Sonar Pings - The tracking was needed so badly. Much, much easier to aim them now. They are still pretty slow, so its harder at long ranges. Also being able to just Damage Control Party to remove pings makes it so much harder to keep the pings up. I think the pings need to last like 10 seconds longer, with this being the case. The big issue is that maintaining a ping is so much micromanagement. This NEEDS to be reduced somewhat. Making pings last longer would help a lot.

 

New Consumables - US has a good one that stops DC drain, but all the other consumables seem either pointless or in such low capacity that i feel bad using them. The hydrophone especially, i do not understand the point of. DC is such a precious resource that i actively want to avoid staying underwater, so i do not understand the point of this one. By the time i use it, ping an enemy ship and launch torpedoes at them, with all the setup/positioning involved, ive burned 1/4 or even 1/3 of my DC.

 

New Captain Skills - Some good ones. However a lot of them seem focused around having low DC. Whilst they are probably overall the best options, its sad to see so many skills be essentially useless until you drain your DC. I mean, more underwater speed is nice, but by the time i have that little DC left, i can probably make use of this captain skill for about 30-40 seconds before my DC is gone completely. Other skills are similar, and honestly seem like a waste.

 

Overall i think Dive Capacity is just way too harsh. It should be a smaller capacity, based on nation/tier, and recharge when surfaced. This hard limit on submerged time is just hurting way too much. I get why people think its needed, and i definitely think that overall Subs SHOULD have some kind of limit to remaining underwater, but this is too harsh in the other direction. I feel like i should be burning HP in fights rather than submerge, a lot of the time, because my DC is too important.

[Carandraug]

8 hours ago, AlexeiCrimson said:

Honestly it is not that bad. I can understand you personally not enjoying them, but nobody forces you to play them. The "takes away surface ship slots" argument stopped being relevant when they gave all ships depth charges. Now everyone can damage Subs, and they cannot stay submerged forever. So they are just as easy to kill as anything else other than CVs, which are still actually a broken class. That said, the game is definitely at the point where we need another slot on each team. That is true regardless of Subs being added or not.

 

I dont think you actually understand the "takes away surface ship slots" argument, because it has nothing to do with the ability of ships to fight subs :) The main problem is the adding of yet another class of ships, which are supposed to be invisible for vast majority of the game. In a pretty common T6 game with 2 *edit* Vehicles, 2 battleships, 2 cruisers, 3 destroyers and 3 submarines you have grand total of FOUR ships to actually shoot at most of the time. Sure there will be brief moments of shooting some of the little ones, but overall enjoyment for the big surface ship player will be just horrible. And on bigger maps in higher tiers it will get even worse, matches with map showing one, two enemy ships at most for large portions of the match are not really screaming "fun". 

[AlexeiCrimson]

7 hours ago, Carandraug said:

I dont think you actually understand the "takes away surface ship slots" argument, because it has nothing to do with the ability of ships to fight subs :) The main problem is the adding of yet another class of ships, which are supposed to be invisible for vast majority of the game. In a pretty common T6 game with 2 *edit* Vehicles, 2 battleships, 2 cruisers, 3 destroyers and 3 submarines you have grand total of FOUR ships to actually shoot at most of the time. Sure there will be brief moments of shooting some of the little ones, but overall enjoyment for the big surface ship player will be just horrible. And on bigger maps in higher tiers it will get even worse, matches with map showing one, two enemy ships at most for large portions of the match are not really screaming "fun". 

Literally the main argument for taking away surface slots was always the "it takes away HP from the game because we cannot hurt them when they are underwater!".

 

Those numbers are literally the worst example you can make, in your favour. 2 CVs are not that common, and should not be a thing to begin with. Subs will probably be limited to 2 per side. Hell, would it not be great if Subs took up the same slot as CVs? Even then by your example, that is 7 surface ships, not 4. Also Subs spend most of their time on the surface now. They get like 4 minutes MAX of underwater time, in a 20 minute match, and that is assuming they do not suffer the extra drain from being detected whilst underwater.

 

Seriously, go play the test server. Subs are mostly surface ships with a panic dive button. I literally smoked up in a DD and killed one that didnt dive. BBs can delete them in basically one volley. CVs farm them with HE rockets. Its nowhere close to the state of the previous tests.

[Festeves]

9 minutes ago, AlexeiCrimson said:

Periscope Depth - Why does this exist? It gives you more concealment, sure, but it also drains DC and immediately maxes out your concealment if you ping. What is the point here? Only use unguided torps? They are incredibly hard to aim, and Subs turn like BBs, so its hard to get into good positions for broadsides.

If they intend to keep this depth mechanic that only lets you choose predetermined depths, unlike the old method, they need to remove DC at this level.

 

12 minutes ago, AlexeiCrimson said:

Deck Gun - Nice to see, but it does nothing. Just and FYI to everyone, do not expect this to help you ever. Which is fine.

Actualy think this was the best improvement they made, since I have managed to get more hits from it then from torps. Even managed to finish of a CV. But all this happened because I ran out of DC and had to stay surfaced and killed right after.

 

14 minutes ago, AlexeiCrimson said:

Sonar Pings - The tracking was needed so badly. Much, much easier to aim them now. They are still pretty slow, so its harder at long ranges. Also being able to just Damage Control Party to remove pings makes it so much harder to keep the pings up. I think the pings need to last like 10 seconds longer, with this being the case. The big issue is that maintaining a ping is so much micromanagement. This NEEDS to be reduced somewhat. Making pings last longer would help a lot.

Still think they should add some sort of ruller like we get on ships when aiming. Hard to stay focussed on pinging when you need to concentrate on how much DC you have left.

 

16 minutes ago, AlexeiCrimson said:

New Consumables - US has a good one that stops DC drain, but all the other consumables seem either pointless or in such low capacity that i feel bad using them. The hydrophone especially, i do not understand the point of. DC is such a precious resource that i actively want to avoid staying underwater, so i do not understand the point of this one. By the time i use it, ping an enemy ship and launch torpedoes at them, with all the setup/positioning involved, ive burned 1/4 or even 1/3 of my DC.

Hydrophone is completely useless, I haven't managed to spot a thing besides my team ships, you can be right next to a enemy sub or ship and it wont detect a thing.

 

18 minutes ago, AlexeiCrimson said:

Overall i think Dive Capacity is just way too harsh. It should be a smaller capacity, based on nation/tier, and recharge when surfaced. This hard limit on submerged time is just hurting way too much. I get why people think its needed, and i definitely think that overall Subs SHOULD have some kind of limit to remaining underwater, but this is too harsh in the other direction. I feel like i should be burning HP in fights rather than submerge, a lot of the time, because my DC is too important.

Dive Capacity completely ruins the class for me and basicaly renders sub useless by taking away their only advantage in a fight. I didn't mind the old way when pings and moving underwater consumed eletricity, because you knew you could recharge it, even in dangerous condicions. They could always not let you stay submerged without it, unlike the previous test, but give the option to recharge. They realy need to rethink this part of the game.

[Carandraug]

5 minutes ago, AlexeiCrimson said:

Literally the main argument for taking away surface slots was always the "it takes away HP from the game because we cannot hurt them when they are underwater!".

 

Those numbers are literally the worst example you can make, in your favour. 2 CVs are not that common, and should not be a thing to begin with. Subs will probably be limited to 2 per side. Hell, would it not be great if Subs took up the same slot as CVs? Even then by your example, that is 7 surface ships, not 4. Also Subs spend most of their time on the surface now. They get like 4 minutes MAX of underwater time, in a 20 minute match, and that is assuming they do not suffer the extra drain from being detected whilst underwater.

 

Seriously, go play the test server. Subs are mostly surface ships with a panic dive button. I literally smoked up in a DD and killed one that didnt dive. BBs can delete them in basically one volley. CVs farm them with HE rockets. Its nowhere close to the state of the previous tests.

It's not just about the time spent underwater, even on surface sub has sub-6 kilometer concealment, so essentially DD levels. Not to mention even lower air detection with sub-2 kilometer levels. So even with not taking submerging into account you are doubling the amount of DDs, which are ships (mostly) designed to stay concealed for a big chunk of the game. I don''t believe they will limit subs to 2 per match, because they need to have the spreadsheet activity numbers to show the dumpster fire is a success. Also we still havent seen the higher tier gameplay on bigger maps, which will really be quite a massive changer too. Color me extremely pessimistic about the prospects of actually improving the game. History kinda keeps repeating itself...

[AlexeiCrimson]

1 minute ago, Carandraug said:

It's not just about the time spent underwater, even on surface sub has sub-6 kilometer concealment, so essentially DD levels. Not to mention even lower air detection with sub-2 kilometer levels. So even with not taking submerging into account you are doubling the amount of DDs, which are ships (mostly) designed to stay concealed for a big chunk of the game. I don''t believe they will limit subs to 2 per match, because they need to have the spreadsheet activity numbers to show the dumpster fire is a success. Also we still havent seen the higher tier gameplay on bigger maps, which will really be quite a massive changer too. Color me extremely pessimistic about the prospects of actually improving the game. History kinda keeps repeating itself...

They do not have any concealment skills, and they handle more like BBs. I really do not think its a fair comparison. A DD can sail away from most situations, whereas a Sub is way more limited in its options. Especially now with DC heavily punishing you for being spotted. As soon as a CV gets your location, it can burn off chunks of DC just by harassing you. Take one volley from a BB and over half your health is gone. You cannot dive fast enough to avoid incoming HE fire either.

 

Sure Subs are as hard to detect as DDs, on paper, but in-game they are so inflexible that once you have the general direction, its MUCH easier to find them. Plus you can remove ping locks with your DCP consumable now, and become immune for the duration, so running down a Sub is easy.

 

And yes CVs suck. We know. Its not an argument to say Submarines are going to be just as broken. Please stop lumping them together when they are two completely different classes.

[SoirHawk]

I do not like the new "Improvements" to the submarines...........really submarines that can't stay hidden underwater?

 

You may as well change them to Very fast, heavily armed Motor Torpedo Boats

[Carandraug]

2 minutes ago, AlexeiCrimson said:

They do not have any concealment skills, and they handle more like BBs. I really do not think its a fair comparison. A DD can sail away from most situations, whereas a Sub is way more limited in its options. Especially now with DC heavily punishing you for being spotted. As soon as a CV gets your location, it can burn off chunks of DC just by harassing you. Take one volley from a BB and over half your health is gone. You cannot dive fast enough to avoid incoming HE fire either.

 

Sure Subs are as hard to detect as DDs, on paper, but in-game they are so inflexible that once you have the general direction, its MUCH easier to find them. Plus you can remove ping locks with your DCP consumable now, and become immune for the duration, so running down a Sub is easy.

 

And yes CVs suck. We know. Its not an argument to say Submarines are going to be just as broken. Please stop lumping them together when they are two completely different classes.

I would love to have your optimism, but i just don't :) CV rework and its sheer joy made me quit for a year and im expecting very similar levels of dung heap with subs. I'm also not lumping subs in CVs in terms of power level, subs are actually pretty underwhelming, but will just promote very bad gameplay even more. Even in T6 the best way to play the US sub is to stay BEHIND DDs and spam torps cos you have better range than any of them. So wait and see the russian TX subs with 15 km torps and nuclear warheads :P

[AlexeiCrimson]

Just now, Carandraug said:

I would love to have your optimism, but i just don't :) CV rework and its sheer joy made me quit for a year and im expecting very similar levels of dung heap with subs. I'm also not lumping subs in CVs in terms of power level, subs are actually pretty underwhelming, but will just promote very bad gameplay even more. Even in T6 the best way to play the US sub is to stay BEHIND DDs and spam torps cos you have better range than any of them. So wait and see the russian TX subs with 15 km torps and nuclear warheads :P

Its not really optimism. Subs have already been in development for twice as long as the CV rework. Plus ive seen player feedback actually be added to subsequent tests. Plus Subs are not inherently broken like CVs, so even if they are underpowered, as long as you can kill them, who cares? They are not going to be sitting at the back of the map permaspotting you with planes and chip damage you to death.

 

As for sitting back in a Sub, yes that is the safest way to play. However you can thank Dive Capacity for that. You are so harshly punished for ever being spotted, why would you want to move ahead of DDs, the class that actually has the speed & agility to be scouts? I agree it is not a good playstyle, but its not giving Subs broken levels of damage numbers either.

[Carandraug]

14 minutes ago, AlexeiCrimson said:

Its not really optimism. Subs have already been in development for twice as long as the CV rework. Plus ive seen player feedback actually be added to subsequent tests. Plus Subs are not inherently broken like CVs, so even if they are underpowered, as long as you can kill them, who cares? They are not going to be sitting at the back of the map permaspotting you with planes and chip damage you to death.

 

As for sitting back in a Sub, yes that is the safest way to play. However you can thank Dive Capacity for that. You are so harshly punished for ever being spotted, why would you want to move ahead of DDs, the class that actually has the speed & agility to be scouts? I agree it is not a good playstyle, but its not giving Subs broken levels of damage numbers either.

You do realize, that the fact that with 2 years of development they are still not even close to being released is not a good thing, right ? After 2 years they are STILL unsure about the role and basic mechanics with the subs. So we are suffering hearing absolute BS like the recent change of tune to "subs are meant to battle cruisers and DDs" line... Their listening to feedback is a myth like always, all the changes are every single time one step forward, two steps back. It's a pretty sad thing, that the most "fun" and actually playable sub experience was during the first appearance in the Halloween event. Since then, every PTS with subs was a 101 lesson on absolute fail and masterclass in boredom.

[AlexeiCrimson]

1 minute ago, Carandraug said:

You do realize, that the fact that with 2 years of development they are still not even close to being released is not a good thing, right ? After 2 years they are STILL unsure about the role and basic mechanics with the subs. So we are suffering hearing absolute BS like the recent change of tune to "subs are meant to battle cruisers and DDs" line... Their listening to feedback is a myth like always, all the changes are every single time one step forward, two steps back. It's a pretty sad thing, that the most "fun" and actually playable sub experience was during the first appearance in the Halloween event. Since then, every PTS with subs was a 101 lesson on absolute fail and masterclass in boredom.

Of course its a good thing. Would you prefer it if they released Subs last year, when you could exploit surface/submerged states to become immune to certain types of damage, or when BBs were talking half their health in damage per Torpedo volley? They are testing. They are listening and implementing feedback. Rather than rushing Subs out in a broken state. Again, as long as they are not overpowered, who cares? At that point, just do not play them if its not your style. That is completely fine.

[Pikkozoikum]

3 hours ago, Carandraug said:

Main problem is the subs just dont fit into this game at all and WG has chance of snowball in hell to actually make it playable.

I think, they fit into the game. Alone the fact, that many other games have already submarines. Steel Ocean for example is the same genre like WoWS and they had them from the beginning. Though I think, they fit very well and don't see, why they should not fit, because a Game can be programmed in a way like the developers want. They can make flying seals fit into the game, if they want ^^

 

3 hours ago, Carandraug said:

There are so many absolutely stupid ideas they are trying to push.... For starters the whole concept of homing torps is pure idiocy, make them hit harder but just use normal targetting.

The homing itself is not the issue, the whole system could be fun. But with the current version ,they really should add 2 types of torpedos.

1. The homing torpedos with low damage - pinging gives a concealment penalty, thus they would be used for long range and against fast targets

2. Non-homing torpedos with high damage - those are for close distance and easy shots

 

That would already solve many issues, for example to make the periscope depth usefull. Right now the periscop depth is quite pointless.

 

3 hours ago, Carandraug said:

Get rid of the whole diving capacity and bring back the normal battery system with recharging on surface.

it's not much of a difference if you have a battery with total amount or a recharging batter with a low amount. The thing is ,that the current submarines have a very low amount. They need recharge acutally. For a total amount design, they need more like 6-10 minutes. For recharging it would be enough to have 3 minute low tier, and 5 minutes high tier and then with recharge of course.

 

3 hours ago, Carandraug said:

Secondaries are a meme and total joke, not meant to be used for a real fight.

No, Secondaries have to stay. Mulitple reasons.

1. For the meme. Its' fun to have them

2. Consistent Design: Other ships have useless secondaries, every ship should have functional secondaries to stay consistent in design

3. It's an action game. Just like in an action movie, they would probably show a subamrine using the deck canon against a Battle ship

4. Sinking low HP ships, I already did that today

5. De-cap a capture point in last seconds

6. Future premium ships (200mm) and IJN ships (140mm)

7. We don't go with "for a real fight", otherwise we would have to remove more than 50% of the content of this game. Where Destroyer guns meant to sink Battleships?

 

They just need to be more accurate and more range like 6km. I don't see, why you would remove them, there is no benefit from that

 

3 hours ago, Carandraug said:

Also if you cram stupid subs into our throats , then you need to raise the amount of ships in the matches.

In the end, the Destroyers are just like DDs. So having 2 DDs and 2 SS in one match is not much difference than having 4 DDs. But actually increasing the number by 1 would actually do something imo, though the number 13 is maybe not optiomal

 

3 hours ago, Carandraug said:

Otherwise it's just not gonna be fun at all, it's already infested with too many ships playing their own minigame (Cancer Vehicles for starters) and not being a part of the actual battle with consequences.

Idk, where is the difference, if a DD torps you invisible or a Submarine? Its kinda the same imo. I see submarines as a different type of destroyer. They are slower than a destroyer, but have other advantages in return.

 

3 hours ago, Carandraug said:

Subs would be perfect for a separate Convoy mode, which could be potentially very popular. But trying to force them into Randoms and Ranked (lol) is just absolute and unfiltered drunk madness. But hey it's WG we are talking about...

I disagree, and you would probably also disagree, if you would have started with Steel Ocean and would changed then to WoWS. I come form a game, that always had submarines, I was even a submarine main player ^^

[ArendB_2018]

Great work WG!!!!

 

• The information article is only on the english website, on the german site we find absolutely no hint to this test. I was completely surprised yesterday by a stream sudenly showing Uboats.
• Very limited time for the test, only 6 days and some hours per day. WOWS is not our job, so how to find time for all the things (Ranked, Keilerei, CW, Fabelwesen, Dockyard, PTS, TST). This will lead to little participation and in effect the results are worthless. Why not simply introduce subs as special game mode on live server for a patch? Instead we have to install another client.
• I understand that WG will introduce subs just because of the big invest already done, but it will destroy the balance finally

[ghostbuster_]

8 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I think, they fit into the game. Alone the fact, that many other games have already submarines. Steel Ocean for example is the same genre like WoWS and they had them from the beginning. Though I think, they fit very well and don't see, why they should not fit, because a Game can be programmed in a way like the developers want. They can make flying seals fit into the game, if they want ^^

They can. But that doesnt mean flying seals would fit into the game balance we have right now. 

Subs fundamentaly dont fit because in this game DDs are the ones who heavly depent on concealment. Thats why their one and only advantage over other classes (CV excluded because CV take any advantage of any class, tumbles and stacks right into their sses.)

Subs take that advantage away form DDs. 

Here is a sugvestion. Raise the detection range of subs to DD levels when surfaced and make DDs only spotable by subs if sub is on the surface. But this would not very fun from the sub point of view.

8 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The homing itself is not the issue, the whole system could be fun. But with the current version ,they really should add 2 types of torpedos.

Oh they are problem. Its straight up dumbed down, easy mode.

8 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

1. The homing torpedos with low damage - pinging gives a concealment penalty, thus they would be used for long range and against fast targets

2. Non-homing torpedos with high damage - those are for close distance and easy shots

There is no way to justify homing torps.

8 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

That would already solve many issues, for example to make the periscope depth usefull. Right now the periscop depth is quite pointless.

 

it's not much of a difference if you have a battery with total amount or a recharging batter with a low amount. The thing is ,that the current submarines have a very low amount. They need recharge acutally. For a total amount design, they need more like 6-10 minutes. For recharging it would be enough to have 3 minute low tier, and 5 minutes high tier and then with recharge of course.

 

No, Secondaries have to stay. Mulitple reasons.

1. For the meme. Its' fun to have them

2. Consistent Design: Other ships have useless secondaries, every ship should have functional secondaries to stay consistent in design

3. It's an action game. Just like in an action movie, they would probably show a subamrine using the deck canon against a Battle ship

4. Sinking low HP ships, I already did that today

5. De-cap a capture point in last seconds

6. Future premium ships (200mm) and IJN ships (140mm)

7. We don't go with "for a real fight", otherwise we would have to remove more than 50% of the content of this game. Where Destroyer guns meant to sink Battleships?

 

They just need to be more accurate and more range like 6km. I don't see, why you would remove them, there is no benefit from that

 

In the end, the Destroyers are just like DDs. So having 2 DDs and 2 SS in one match is not much difference than having 4 DDs. But actually increasing the number by 1 would actually do something imo, though the number 13 is maybe not optiomal

So they are gonna be caped by 2 per team? And yes it makes a hell of a difference. 

8 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

Idk, where is the difference, if a DD torps you invisible or a Submarine? Its kinda the same imo. I see submarines as a different type of destroyer. They are slower than a destroyer, but have other advantages in return.

1. DD doesnt have homing torps meaning easy to dodge. 

2. Against DDs there are much more counterplay options.

8 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

I disagree, and you would probably also disagree, if you would have started with Steel Ocean and would changed then to WoWS. I come form a game, that always had submarines, I was even a submarine main player ^^

Well, this is not steel ocean. And if you enjoyed subs so much, maybe you can just keep playing steel ocean?

[ghostbuster_]

9 hours ago, AlexeiCrimson said:

Of course its a good thing. Would you prefer it if they released Subs last year, when you could exploit surface/submerged states to become immune to certain types of damage, or when BBs were talking half their health in damage per Torpedo volley? They are testing. They are listening and implementing feedback.

Ehm when and where? They changed thing but not because they listened to feedback or something. It would have been much different if they did. They have their spreadsheets.

9 hours ago, AlexeiCrimson said:

Rather than rushing Subs out in a broken state. Again, as long as they are not overpowered, who cares? At that point, just do not play them if its not your style. That is completely fine.

And what about playing against them? 

[tsounts]

So now everyone will be using HE mostly.... As if it weren't bad already...
 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

16 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

They can. But that doesnt mean flying seals would fit into the game balance we have right now. 

Subs fundamentaly dont fit because in this game DDs are the ones who heavly depent on concealment. Thats why their one and only advantage over other classes (CV excluded because CV take any advantage of any class, tumbles and stacks right into their sses.)

Subs take that advantage away form DDs. 

Here is a sugvestion. Raise the detection range of subs to DD levels when surfaced and make DDs only spotable by subs if sub is on the surface. But this would not very fun from the sub point of view.

Eh, yes, and like I said, they worked in Steel Ocean, a game that some would call a clone of World of Warships. DDs rely there on concealment as well, same as Submarines.

Also there are different DDs with different concealment values. So Subs are just like DDs only in a different way. Nobody complains about, that a Shimakaze takes the advantage of a Gearing or Halland away ^^

 

The concealment of Submarines is alsmost on DD level. The Cachalot is at 6.2 km with skills. The IJN submarine might be even worse

 

56 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

Oh they are problem. Its straight up dumbed down, easy mode.

Not really, the damage itself of the torpedo is not very high and  hitting with the sonar ping on high distances is also not the easiest. The sonar pings are like faster torpedos and not like shells. Also the submarine gets max concealment penalty by pinging. I personall don't ping much, only on high range, on short range I drop without pings.

No idea where it'S dumbed down and easy mode, when you get options of pinging or not pinging.  Makes it actually more complex.

I think the lead for the pinging is 50% of the torpedo lead, something around that

 

58 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

So they are gonna be caped by 2 per team? And yes it makes a hell of a difference. 

Not in the perspective I'm talking about. You probably talk about something different.

 

Same like comparing apples with pears. you could say you can't compare them and on the other hand you can. It depends on the perspective and matter, about what you compare or differentiate.

 

1 hour ago, ghostbuster_ said:

1. DD doesnt have homing torps meaning easy to dodge. 

2. Against DDs there are much more counterplay options.

Actually there is more couterplay against submarines.

-You can run away, they are slow

-You can hydro and radar them. When they are pinging, they are surfaced.

-You have more weapon system against them and can even blind attack with them.(Huge splash damage) (Guns, torpedos, ASW-planes, DCs)

-Unlike torpedos of DDs, the pingings come with a warning

-Pings can be cleared with DCP, so if there is a Fire+pinging on the ship, it might be worthy to use it

 

1 hour ago, ghostbuster_ said:

Well, this is not steel ocean. And if you enjoyed subs so much, maybe you can just keep playing steel ocean?

That makes no sense in a logical way. How does that add anything to the discussion? I was just mentioning the point of view and it's very often the case, that people disliek changes. Best example is Dark Souls, if you know that. May people say, that Dark Souls 2 is bad. But those people often started with DS1. I started with DS2, so I was not biased in any way or influenced by the precessor and I liked Dark Souls 2.

The submarines in Steel Ocean were a lot fun, but World of Warships is overall better. So why not mixing both? Good submarines from Steel Ocean with World of Warships. The current version is kinda close to the Steel Ocean version, still different of course.

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

20 minutes ago, tsounts said:

So now everyone will be using HE mostly.... As if it weren't bad already...
 

 

will depend on the MM. When you have 5 DDs on each side, it's kinda the same. But it could be also 4 bbs, 4 cruisers, 2 dd, 2 SS for exmaple. Wouldn't be much difference, especially for subs you don't have to swithc to HE, you could also use ASW, unlike against 4 DDs. So technically there is less HE swap nessecary

[Scavanger666]

:)

[ghostbuster_]

24 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Eh, yes, and like I said, they worked in Steel Ocean, a game that some would call a clone of World of Warships. DDs rely there on concealment as well, same as Submarines.

Who calls that? They are different games with different mechanics.

Quote

Also there are different DDs with different concealment values. So Subs are just like DDs only in a different way. Nobody complains about, that a Shimakaze takes the advantage of a Gearing or Halland away ^^

First of all, gearing has the same concealment as shima if it mounts LM. Other than this, the difference between concealment values is not very high and DDs can not magicly dissapear by diving.

Quote

 

The concealment of Submarines is alsmost on DD level. The Cachalot is at 6.2 km with skills. The IJN submarine might be even worse

Do we know on tier 10? I couldnt see that yet.

Quote

 

Not really, the damage itself of the torpedo is not very high and  hitting with the sonar ping on high distances is also not the easiest.

Its really easy 

Quote

The sonar pings are like faster torpedos and not like shells. Also the submarine gets max concealment penalty by pinging.

Doesnt matter if you are under the water, does it?

Quote

I personall don't ping much, only on high range, on short range I drop without pings.

No idea where it'S dumbed down and easy mode, when you get options of pinging or not pinging.  Makes it actually more complex.

What is complex about it? Someone who is incapable of predicting the enemy moves can still land torp hit becsuse of these homing torps.

Quote

I think the lead for the pinging is 50% of the torpedo lead, something around that

 

Not in the perspective I'm talking about. You probably talk about something different.

 

Same like comparing apples with pears. you could say you can't compare them and on the other hand you can. It depends on the perspective and matter, about what you compare or differentiate.

 

Actually there is more couterplay against submarines.

-You can run away, they are slow

Well you can say that for many others but this isnt exactly a counterplay , is it? 

Quote

-You can hydro and radar them. When they are pinging, they are surfaced.

As far as i know, subs cant be get radared if they are not surfaced. Unless they changed this. 

Quote

-You have more weapon system against them and can even blind attack with them.(Huge splash damage) (Guns, torpedos, ASW-planes, DCs)

Torps are not counters to subs. Guns dont work unless they are on surface or periscope dept.

So only DCs. And can be also easly handled.

Quote

-Unlike torpedos of DDs, the pingings come with a warning

Unlike DD torps they are homing ones.

Quote

-Pings can be cleared with DCP, so if there is a Fire+pinging on the ship, it might be worthy to use it.

its not like sub can spam pings... 

Quote

 

That makes no sense in a logical way. How does that add anything to the discussion?

You are comparing two different games. How does this make any sence? Do these games have exact same mechanics? Exact same ships with same characteristics? Nope. So subs might work there but it will destroy the balance in this game.

Quote

I was just mentioning the point of view and it's very often the case, that people disliek changes. Best example is Dark Souls, if you know that. May people say, that Dark Souls 2 is bad. But those people often started with DS1. I started with DS2, so I was not biased in any way or influenced by the precessor and I liked Dark Souls 2.

Doesnt have anything to do with changes. Changes can be adapted thats not a problem. Tbere have been many changes in tvis game since beta testing. We have adapted each time. Bht with subs, there is nothing to adapt.

Quote

The submarines in Steel Ocean were a lot fun, but World of Warships is overall better. So why not mixing both? Good submarines from Steel Ocean with World of Warships. The current version is kinda close to the Steel Ocean version, still different of course.

 

 

I have already told you why

[Nagine]

I have a strange feeling of deja vu after reading the comments here... Since the very first years of WOWS there was an omnipresent debate about two ship classes: true big honorable manly warships X vs. puny invisible cowardly broken demons Y. Hm, is there a trend by any chance?

 

I myself am glad that WOWS finally has balls to introduce a new mechanic that has a potential to involve thinking as opposed to another fancy way of "click and make big BOOM" gameplay. Sadly, it is only a potential, knowing sad WOWS history of dumbing down anything that is more brain intensive than clicking :(

[TheBicentennialman]

this will be wows  first premium submarine

price range             £90 $90

1 Weapon               self-destruct

custom horn

 

 

[Barthels]

Subs need to be able to stay submerged for longer time during a match. Either they give them about twice as much Dive Capacity or make it rechargeable somehow. Either at surface or when not running the engine, or as a consumable. Dont care how, they just need more time under water... about 10 min at least. Because if not, they play too close to DDs, just poorer since they are slower, have less HP and handles worse... also their torps are much worse than DD's torps.

They should probably have two limited resources when diving. Oxygen and Battery. Both of which get replenished while at the surface. Oxygen can then be consumed faster when spottet, because the crew get scared... And battery depletes depending on your underwater speed. When remaining still, no to very little battery is consumed, so you could dive and stay put for a long time... while sailing at flank speed, it would deplete really fast... That would make it a lot more realistic too! And higher tier should have more of both HP, higher damaging weapons (both deck gun and torps), have larger amounts of oxygen and battery... plus they should be able to dive deeper.

Ergo tier 10 subs should be able to really "hunt" underwater... and only come up for air very few times in a match...

[AlexeiCrimson]

4 hours ago, ghostbuster_ said:

Ehm when and where? They changed thing but not because they listened to feedback or something. It would have been much different if they did. They have their spreadsheets.

And what about playing against them? 

For example when the community wanted all ships to have depth charges, and for the next test, they almost all did. Or how we wanted deck guns, and look what we got.

 

4 hours ago, ghostbuster_ said:

And what about playing against them? 

What about it? Everyone can damage them. They are slow DDs that actually advertise themselves when they fire torpedoes at you. Plus you can Damage Control as the homing torpedoes are incoming to remove the ping, making them even easier to dodge. Nobody will have trouble against Subs once they learn how to counter them. Most annoying thing Subs can do, sit at long range spamming torps, i literally just told you how to counter it.

 

Or because they are so slow, just avoid them until the end of the match. They will probably be out of Dive Capacity by then, in which case it dies extremely fast, even to DD HE fire.

[Wieland]

17 hours ago, SoirHawk said:

I do not like the new "Improvements" to the submarines...........really submarines that can't stay hidden underwater?

 

You may as well change them to Very fast, heavily armed Motor Torpedo Boats

Those Torp Boats would probably be more fun than the current Subs.

 

I was playing a DD in test and had fun.

I was playing a BB in test and had fun.

I was playing a sub in test and wondered where the fun went.

The ultra short dive time simply makes it no fun.

Hell, i have more fun playing a cv(and i only play them if i have to for a mission) than the current version of subs.

Let them recharge by being on surface or something.