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Airdrop: no skill to use, no chance to defend.

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What a mess of an idea. I understand they want people to stop camping behind islands, but introducing Thor's hammer to do it is just a joke.

 

I do wonder if the devs actually understand what is fun about the game - the fact that it's about positioning and angles - when they bring in a mechanic that needs neither of them.

 

They've taken everyone's least favourite class, CVs, extracted the essence of what everybody hates about them and introduced it to other classes. Ridiculous.

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There is plenty of time between when the attacker sets the drop and when the drop actually is happening.

So, the argument that there is no chance to defend is wrong.

 

It is a bad designed mechanic and is in utter need of tweeking and adjusting. But that is not an excuss to tell hyperboles and stuff. Keep sticking to the facts is the best way to ensure proper balancing. And yes, I am aware of the irony of combining the words "Wargaming" and "balancing".

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10 hours ago, principat121 said:

There is plenty of time between when the attacker sets the drop and when the drop actually is happening.

So, the argument that there is no chance to defend is wrong.

 

It is a bad designed mechanic and is in utter need of tweeking and adjusting. But that is not an excuss to tell hyperboles and stuff. Keep sticking to the facts is the best way to ensure proper balancing. And yes, I am aware of the irony of combining the words "Wargaming" and "balancing".

 

So in my Krem stopped at zero kts I have a great chance to defend? Not a chance.

 

The main point I can be perfectly positioned, have done nothing wrong and can still get punished. It's bulIshil.

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9 minutes ago, I_need_an_adult said:

So in my Krem stopped at zero kts I have a great chance to defend? Not a chance.

The same is true for every DD suddenly appearing in said senario. 

 

 

Standing still with such a cumbersome and slow ship is the first mistake here and should be punished and exploited. 

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11 minutes ago, principat121 said:

The same is true for every DD suddenly appearing in said senario. 

 

 

Standing still with such a cumbersome and slow ship is the first mistake here and should be punished and exploited. 

 

That is exactly wrong. You should be able to take a good position and exploit it. That's the point of the game - it's not an FPS.

 

And I have no idea what you mean with the DD comment.

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10 minutes ago, principat121 said:

The same is true for every DD suddenly appearing in said senario. 

 

 

Standing still with such a cumbersome and slow ship is the first mistake here and should be punished and exploited. 

I agree with you there and also think that the outrage about the new air drop is a bit overblown. Still enough time for "balancing" the damage output. However, the one major difference between the air drop and torpedoes (for which the air drop seems to be a substitute) is that torpedoes need line of sight to hit camping targets. When they are next to an island it is getting difficult. Air drops do not have that problem. They can hit targets anywhere in range. That is my major gripe with the new mechanic.

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10 minutes ago, BruceRKF said:

They can hit targets anywhere in range.

...that is spotted! Do not forget this. 

 

 

And I will wait for the next iteration to test, as the current state cannot ramain unchanged. 

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16 minutes ago, BruceRKF said:

I agree with you there and also think that the outrage about the new air drop is a bit overblown. Still enough time for "balancing" the damage output. However, the one major difference between the air drop and torpedoes (for which the air drop seems to be a substitute) is that torpedoes need line of sight to hit camping targets. When they are next to an island it is getting difficult. Air drops do not have that problem. They can hit targets anywhere in range. That is my major gripe with the new mechanic.

 

Well exactly, plus they can be angled against to mitigate giving you the quandary do you angle against the torps or the BB.

 

Usually the DD had to get into an advanced position to launch them, which takes skill, and predict where you'll be, which takes more. It's not even close to being the same thing.

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11 hours ago, principat121 said:

There is plenty of time between when the attacker sets the drop and when the drop actually is happening.

So, the argument that there is no chance to defend is wrong.

 

It is a bad designed mechanic and is in utter need of tweeking and adjusting. But that is not an excuss to tell hyperboles and stuff. Keep sticking to the facts is the best way to ensure proper balancing. And yes, I am aware of the irony of combining the words "Wargaming" and "balancing".

Don't the planes spawn only 4 km away, nullifying long-range flak?

 

I mean, most players have a (legitimately) hard time avoiding regular CV drops, when planes can often be spotted at 8-9 km...and now this?

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49 minutes ago, principat121 said:

The same is true for every DD suddenly appearing in said senario. 

At range, a DD will get a couple of torpedo hits on an angled Kremlin, at best.

 

If we're talking about rushing the Kremlin, the DD has to get there first, risking being spotted by other DDs, hydro, radar, planes, proximity (if coming from behind an island). And you can shoot at the DD, while most planes will strike anyhow.

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31 minutes ago, principat121 said:

...that is spotted! Do not forget this.

Do they have to be spotted or can you just set the drop on an area where you think/know the ship is just as you can send torpedoes in the direction you want no matter whether the enemy is spotted? I honestly would like to know, because that would indeed be a point against the air drop.

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13 hours ago, principat121 said:

The same is true for every DD suddenly appearing in said senario. 

 

 

Standing still with such a cumbersome and slow ship is the first mistake here and should be punished and exploited. 

the range of the airstrike is 13km IIRC. Any DD launching torps from that distance will hit about only 1/2 of then due to the spread. RN DDs don't have the torpedo range. Also a Kremlin in such a position will not be alone or even the forward ship, so said DD has to slip through enemy DDs and cruisers to get at the Kremlin to land MORE torpedoes. And will take a beating if he tries a Yolo up close.

 

None of that is any concern for the airstrike cruiser, effectiveness does not decrease with range, has quite a long launch range and does not require line of sight.

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"devs actually understand what is fun about the game" Don't be daft, the devs have enough problems getting to grip with anything that isn't Russian or makes money for WarGreedy !

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On 6/2/2021 at 2:25 AM, I_need_an_adult said:

They've taken everyone's least favourite class, CVs, extracted the essence of what everybody hates about them and introduced it to other classes. Ridiculous.

and when they nerf the toxic thing about CVs (rockets), players start to whine like little bitches

Ppl just love a good drama

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On 6/10/2021 at 9:27 AM, totally_potato said:
On 6/1/2021 at 9:55 PM, I_need_an_adult said:

They've taken everyone's least favourite class, CVs, extracted the essence of what everybody hates about them and introduced it to other classes. Ridiculous.

and when they nerf the toxic thing about CVs (rockets), players start to whine like little bitches

Ppl just love a good drama

 

It's led to an increase in DDs and better gameplay.

Funny, changing the thing people [edited] about results in better games. Funny that.

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On 6/2/2021 at 2:25 AM, I_need_an_adult said:

What a mess of an idea. I understand they want people to stop camping behind islands, but introducing Thor's hammer to do it is just a joke.

 

I do wonder if the devs actually understand what is fun about the game - the fact that it's about positioning and angles - when they bring in a mechanic that needs neither of them.

 

They've taken everyone's least favourite class, CVs, extracted the essence of what everybody hates about them and introduced it to other classes. Ridiculous.

look at them rn

 

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You won't have to deal with dumb content like air strikes and submarines if you play below T5. Double CV crap, yes, but at least it won't get worse there.

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Having observed a few streamers playing around with these, there is definitely skill required to use those on MOVING ships as there's a considerable delay (15 seconds). Very similar to torpedoes ...

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On 7/17/2021 at 8:40 AM, Hugh_Ruka said:

Having observed a few streamers playing around with these, there is definitely skill required to use those on MOVING ships as there's a considerable delay (15 seconds). Very similar to torpedoes ...

Having only experience in the Kijkduin, with its single drop, aside from:

 

- no lead indicator, hence pure leading skill

- can’t be used for last ditch defense

- it isn’t a deterrent at all (enemies are inclined to rush you knowing you have no torps and air strikes are weak or miss)

- no “accidental catch” along the route before and after the target

- very small area of effect in comparison to torpedoes and timing has to be perfect (usually is off by 5s)

- targets have to stay predictable, not even slightly turn or it will miss

- damage output even on perfect strike can be 0, usually more like 2-5K per drop and if lucky a fire or some AA taken out. Compare to torps 5-20K per torpedo.

- torpedoes cannot be shot down, sometimes lose 80% of a wing before it drops at T6 when launched at a Kijkduin with support or if someone has fighters in the air.

- torpedoes are less of a team weapon than air strike as torpedo capable ships are less likely to be dependent on scouting by other players

 

 

As for the DD having to sneak up, sneaking up with a cruiser is a lot harder thanks to those DDs. Getting spotted can mean instant death if a BB looks your way. Especially Russian BBs.

 

The Kremlins - OP as they can be - crying wolf because they get an additional fire chance on them is a bit ironic. I’m not quite sure how triple air strikes will change hit rate, but overall I’ve yet to be impressed by air strikes.

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5 hours ago, Figment said:

 I’m not quite sure how triple air strikes will change hit rate, but overall I’ve yet to be impressed by air strikes.

That's what interests me as well. Those famous videos were with tripple GL airstrikes and we have yet to see those in the wild.

 

Seems like a repeat of Italian cruisers, on release all were crap except Venezia due to special pen angles. This might be the same case ...

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2 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

That's what interests me as well. Those famous videos were with tripple GL airstrikes and we have yet to see those in the wild.

 

Seems like a repeat of Italian cruisers, on release all were crap except Venezia due to special pen angles. This might be the same case ...

Even so, I can't imagine them being as reliable and all-situation damage dealers as torps and those are way more often used. The ship executing the move always has to get within striking distance, where it will be quite vulnerable to attack. Given it will have short artillery range, it'll be disadvantaged in the early game to even make that approach without being pummeled when spotted.

 

 

I could see it have major leverage in an already won game when the fewer enemies get outspotted and positioned, but at most it would hasten a defeat then, like stealth torping in those situations would too, and way more efficiently at that. At that point, camping (most vulnerable) is mostly stupid anyway.

 

I mean, if we were to take every 100% to 0% torp strike as the norm, then I don't think we could ever consider this OP. Sure, some camping ships like a light cruiser might suffer from a dev strike once in a blue moon, but how realistic will this be, especially after some balance tweaks?

 

 

 

Mind, I'm not opposed to good AA defense against this type of attack and I think those light cruisers should have some sort of defensive AA advantage to dealing with these strikes given their role as say escort ships. But depending on execution (damage, frequency, strike speed, situational awareness), this Air Strike mechanic doesn't have to be OP, but only situational useful. In which case I have no problem there being a potential good strike among them. It just shouldn't be free roaming clobbering.

 

I'm also quite sure that, if CVs worked this way, or had similar lead times rather than the last second adjustment manual drops from too close to dodge (which is the real issue a lot of people have, the "can't fight back" straight line of fire [edited] which they don't apply to torps either), they'd never have been considered OP given that they're extremely hard to aim. So people comparing it to CVs really don't understand the mechanic's differences and are so narrowminded they can only see that the threat is airborne, then drawing their baseless associations with CVs from there.

 

 

 

Another thing, there's a lot of people who claim this isn't like torps because torps supposedly require a straight line of fire "so you have to see them and ships can fire back". That's bull. You often fire in the path of a ship from safety, or while you move into safety. Requiring line of sight is only true for someone on your team, some time before or during the moment of launching, you do not need to get into a dangerous situation, even with 4km to 5,5km torps if you plan your ambush well. But the spotter might be you, might be someone else. Might be by radar, might be by hydro or even a RPF guestimate. However,  you don't always need to see or know someone to be somewhere specific to torp them, rather than have some guestimate on where they might go: blind torping into fog, predictable routes or spots or on previously seen ships coming around corners is something I do a lot to great efficiency and with little warning to the enemy who thought to be unseen. This is something you just can't afford to do with air strikes as their area of effect and inability to get unintended side-catches is so much smaller than with torpedoes.

 

Hell, this line of sight argument isn't even true for shells, which you can fire over hills and from cover and hiding and depending on the ship at angles you can't be fired back at because of the mortar strike like angle. Think Bogatyr or a spamming Friesland. The Air Strike is no different from this aside that the angle is even steeper, the leading even worse, the attack can be mitigated by 'shooting down the shells' (aircraft before they drop) and the frequency is much, much, much lower. But HE spam isn't an issue, so why is this?

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9 minutes ago, Figment said:

Another thing, there's a lot of people who claim this isn't like torps because torps supposedly require a straight line of fire "so you have to see them and ships can fire back". That's bull. You often fire in the path of a ship from safety, or while you move into safety. Requiring line of sight is only true for someone on your team, some time before or during the moment of launching, you do not need to get into a dangerous situation, even with 4km to 5,5km torps if you plan your ambush well. But the spotter might be you, might be someone else. Might be by radar, might be by hydro or even a RPF guestimate. However,  you don't always need to see or know someone to be somewhere specific to torp them, rather than have some guestimate on where they might go: blind torping into fog, predictable routes or spots or on previously seen ships coming around corners is something I do a lot to great efficiency and with little warning to the enemy who thought to be unseen. This is something you just can't afford to do with air strikes as their area of effect and inability to get unintended side-catches is so much smaller than with torpedoes.

 

Hell, this line of sight argument isn't even true for shells, which you can fire over hills and from cover and hiding and depending on the ship at angles you can't be fired back at because of the mortar strike like angle. Think Bogatyr or a spamming Friesland. The Air Strike is no different from this aside that the angle is even steeper, the leading even worse, the attack can be mitigated by 'shooting down the shells' (aircraft before they drop) and the frequency is much, much, much lower. But HE spam isn't an issue, so why is this?

Air strike works like Radar or Hydro in this case. You can sit behind an island and launch airstrike behind hard cover. Torpedoes are incapable of that, they need a clear path from launching position to expected hit position. Both are delayed action weapons (they have the longest delay from launch to impact) with torpedoes being variable with distance and Air strike being constant.

 

Basically there's one disadvantage shared with torpedoes (delayed action) without sharing the other ones (dispersion worsens with range, clear line of travel between launch and impact). Air strike has the most flexibility even compared to shells as there is no firing arc that can be blocked by islands. Also your "dispersion" is not affected by lock on or distance. The hit area is the same no matter what.

 

Still there is some more data needed before we can start evaluating how Air strike affects the game. At the current state (up to T9) it seems it is not that much of a problem for the victims.

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6 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Air strike works like Radar or Hydro in this case. You can sit behind an island and launch airstrike behind hard cover. Torpedoes are incapable of that, they need a clear path from launching position to expected hit position. Both are delayed action weapons (they have the longest delay from launch to impact) with torpedoes being variable with distance and Air strike being constant.

 

Basically there's one disadvantage shared with torpedoes (delayed action) without sharing the other ones (dispersion worsens with range, clear line of travel between launch and impact). Air strike has the most flexibility even compared to shells as there is no firing arc that can be blocked by islands. Also your "dispersion" is not affected by lock on or distance. The hit area is the same no matter what.

 

Still there is some more data needed before we can start evaluating how Air strike affects the game. At the current state (up to T9) it seems it is not that much of a problem for the victims.

Agreed, the "arc" is an 'extreme' as any area can be hit and indeed dispersion isn't affected, as such it can sit just a bit closer to a shoreline and higher cover than Cleveland, Bayard and other ships. That said, you have no way to compensate for bad aim as you can with shells. When firing shells your hit area doesn't stay the same, but is adjusted to the target, whereas this is fire once and forget. Mortar artillery can be tough too with the delay at long traveltime, but hits are eventually guaranteed, and one might say the same for any of the consequential fires as they're likely to start the longer you can sustain fire. So it's much more hit or miss, rather than hit and miss. The sustained fire over a period of time also means fires started by mortar artillery shells are harder to supress than the one moment in time Air Strike, which only sets a ship on fire for more than a few seconds if it recently repaired. So to keep ships on fire and get their required DPS and DoT to compete for the victory, these cruisers will have to get firing arcs anyway though, it's not like you can hide ad infinitum and spam air strikes for the damage you need to influence the match in a positive way.

 

The constant delay you mention btw is what makes it a lot harder to use than torpedoes. So it definitely has pros and cons and that's fine, if there were just negative sides to it compared to other tools, why even bother with it?

The weapon mechanism itself doesn't seem to be a major issue, what we really should be looking at is average damage output per match using this tool in combination with the cannons and ensure that's balanced compared to other ships overall. That includes alpha strikes and fires. Given however the guns on these ships perform somewhat underwhelming compared to the guns on their peers, there currently seem to be more downsides than upsides to the Dutch cruiser line in general. Can't say I've felt really threatened yet by any Johan de Witt.

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