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TheWarJaC

PT 0.10.5 - Changes to Attack Aircraft

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Changes to Attack Aircraft

In Update 0.10.5, the rocket-launching mechanics are being updated. Attack aircraft will now fire small-caliber machine guns prior to an attack. They don't inflict damage to ships, but show the exact spot where the rockets are going to hit. This information, together with a prolonged attack time, will allow the Captains of agile ships—destroyers, primarily—to maneuver, and thus reduce possible rocket damage.

This change will be applied to the attack aircraft of all carriers.

c7488e5a-bd43-11eb-bebf-8cdcd4b147d4.jpg

 

This change will be applied to the attack aircraft of all carriers.

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[AFSFG]
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I post very rarely but this time I feel compelled to do so.

I really dislike the way this was implemented, the machine guns as a measure of where and when an attack is coming is a pretty good idea actually.

 

But the delay in the attack proper is atrocious, it takes way too long, I struggled to hit even bigger ships.

 

I play lots on both destroyers and carriers (not that im actually good in any but I digress) and I have yet to experience the so called brokenness and OPness of the cvs... and the aa being ineffective..

that is not my experience, my planes get chewed up constantly so that sometimes I cant even get an attack run in. A lone ship with weak aa, sure. But smart players join forces and pool their aa,  Id say more often than not my squadron never reaches them.

 

I really dont understand the hate towards cvs, and every so often I get the obligatory "duh, cv noob.. duh.. we lost because of you" or the classic "no support from cv, report him! Call the spanish inquisition!!!" when some idiot gets in trouble on the other side of the map and enemies are overrunning all cap points and a cv can only be so many places at once.

 

Sure, when Im in a destroyer it can be a pain to go against the rocket planes, but they can be dodged, ive done so many times, it depends on the cvs skill and yours. And when youre focused by the cv, its worse to be in a sluggish battleship, think nelson for example (although shes a riot to play!) and torpedoes keep coming and you just cant dodge?

 

So by that way of thinking, I as battleship driver want the torps to be slower, be seen further and also a 40 second cooldown with each strike, they also must ask permission before touching your hull.. its ridiculous for sure, but some discussions ive seen about cvs arent much better.

 

Now one thing that was promised several versions ago was to not have 4 cvs in a match, now that is annoying. But they are "working on it" . I guess its too much trouble too implement something like

if(cvs==2) {

  thereAreEnoughAlready();

}

 

Kindly pass this along to your dev team.

And by the way... Having tier VI ships mixed in with VIII and IX is extremely unfair!! (or is it VII with X? bah, its unfair either way)

Especially taking into account that ships in a division cant be more than 1 tier apart, the matchmaker should follow the same  rule!

 

Sorry for the rant, fair skies!

 

P.S. And yes, nobody expects the spanish inquisition so be on your toes at all times!

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[YOBOY]
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You pointed it out: Good players can adopt. Good players, who understand how the other classes work, can outplay them. I guess i am not the worst CV player and i often have trouble fighting DDs with a commander who knows what he does. At first, they dont have their AA active from start. Then, they know that they can turn towards my rocketplanes to avoid damage or to let me "overfly" them. They stay near theire teammates who can support them with AA and so on.
Just bad players have their AA active all the time and make it easy for me to find and attack them.

But look at the servers. Bad is the new average (at least on EU). There are so many extremly bad players in DDs. Especially on hightier. They have no understanding of the game and its mechanics. But... they are many. And they spent money. So they must be protected. Getting knowledge and/or skill is not an option for Wargaming. No. CVs must be nerfed into uselessnes. Meanwhile, more and more ships with strong long range AA come out (6,9km is the new 6km).

When i play CV, especially on high tier, i often have problems attacking ships without losing my whole squad. Sure, i still can attack that ships 1 or 2 times but thats it. Then my CV is outplaned.
When i play DD, where i´m not really good in, i have most times absolute no problems handling CVs. I know how to avoid them, i know how to minimize taken damage and know when to stay near my mates.
Sure, you have to use your brain in such cases... but if you do, it works.

 

The next funny "argument" of Wargaming was "historical accuracy". Sure... in an arcade game... where most things are NOT historical accurate. Or have i just overseen my torps on Nelson? Or why is my Bismarck so inaccurate while it should be one of the most accurate ships? I guess you know what i wanna say. Historical accuracy is no argument as it is nonsense....

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[-DGH-]
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As a DD main that plays CV too, I have to say these nerfs are not helpful at all. It's not the main problem that a CV does damage to the DD, but the planes spotting for the team.

 

The delay of 3 seconds when firing rockets in combination with no horizontal indicator beside the small aiming circle makes it quite hard to lead at anything smaller than a BB.

 

Anyway, any US carrier can blow up DDs with HE dive bomber anyway ...

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[PLO]
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The delay introduced to rocket firing is game-breaking for German CV's. 2 additional seconds mean additional flight time and German attack planes are much, much higher than they usually were. The firing angle is higher and you can't citadel cruisers - which was main selling point of German attack planes.

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I have just submitted the questionnaire from the public test, I suggested this method to be used with the rocket planes instead of how it is now. If anybody likes this idea, please let wg know.

 

The machine gun effect is indeed very nice and can be a visual aid for the when the rocket attack is imminent, so a much better implementation would de (imho):
-When you click the first time and start your attack run, the machine guns start firing, so the intended target can track where your firing point is and maneuver against it. (the intended effect would be like the track a machine gun leaves on the ground as it zeroes in on the target, ah la hollywood)


-After you click to fire, the rockets go instantly like before, but untill now the target ship has been aware of the impact point of the rockets and was able to position itself better or evade completely before the attack run times out.

 

This I think would be a much better compromise, and would not basicly kill rocket based attacks and hinder CV gameplay. As both CV and DD player I think the above solution would be the best for both parties.
Would you implement a 3 second fire delay on some ships guns just because they are accurate?! Of course not.

Regards.

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This basically kills any rocket attacks against ships, even struggling to hit bigger ships. 
How are the AP rockets supposed to hit anything of value now? They are dependant on hitting certain areas on the ships to be effective. 

The experience with CVs are far worse now. The punishments are so extreme that even hitting bot ships that slightly maneuver is hard, and the rockets are as bad as before with horrible dispersion that does not always even hit the ships!

If the changes go live as they are, they will be completely broken.

 

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[STURM]
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Just tested the changes to attack planes on the test server.

 

Due to the low number of players, I could mainly play against bots. That means that my finding with the new rocket mechanic is still very flattered as skilled human opponents in DDs or CAs would have done even better to dodge my attacks.

 

Although CVs are my less played class in WOWS, I have the feeling that the changes are not good.

 

To my surprise, the retackle of the attack planes is now “frozen” on the spot for 3-4 seconds after you have pulled the tricker and before the rockets are fired. That means you have to predict, where the target might be in 3-4 seconds and to give the proper lead. Meaning an agile enemy ship aware that it is under attack (aka DDs and CAs) can easily avoid to get hidden.

 

In my test matches I found it almost impossible to hit DDs now with rockets and even CAs with a basic amount of situational awareness could largely avoid to take damage. Now your best bet to make some damage with the attack planes is to target the big, slow and sluggish ships (aka BBs or CVs).

I found it a special blow against the German attack planes with their AP rockets. They are already now almost ineffective against DDs and also CAs can mitigate the damage by angling. Now with target delay they will be – IMO – largely worthless.

 

And the so-what?

 

Already now I have made the observation that a lot of CVs are ignoring the DDs from the beginning but focus on the enemy BBs to maximizes damage output. Especially in a match where the other CV goes for the DDs you normally note the difference. The team losing its DDs first normally will not win the match (yes, there are exceptions). But there is a price for this. In a match I play a CV with 3-4 DDs on the other side, I normally just have a low score as I spend almost all my time to spot and attack DDs, which is not credited by the game.

Now the motivation to bother with the DDs will be even lower because all you can do is to spot end keep enemy DDs open and observing how your planes fall out of the sky one after the other. Instead, the CVs will attack these targets they still have an impact on from the start (much to the dislike of their own team which is still expecting them to spot and hunt the DDs).

 

If this was the intended outcome, the change will accomplish this.

 

Just my two cents.

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On 5/27/2021 at 3:05 PM, TheWarJaC said:

Changes to Attack Aircraft

In Update 0.10.5, the rocket-launching mechanics are being updated. Attack aircraft will now fire small-caliber machine guns prior to an attack. They don't inflict damage to ships, but show the exact spot where the rockets are going to hit. This information, together with a prolonged attack time, will allow the Captains of agile ships—destroyers, primarily—to maneuver, and thus reduce possible rocket damage.

This change will be applied to the attack aircraft of all carriers.

c7488e5a-bd43-11eb-bebf-8cdcd4b147d4.jpg

 

This change will be applied to the attack aircraft of all carriers.


Can we expect a buff to Graf Zeppelin when this change go live ? Its another nerf added to all the other nerf and she is already pretty low in everything compared to every other CVs.

It will need some time adaptation but may be revert the last buff to DDs concealment so we can at least see them when we shoot would be good.

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If this change does go through, perhaps rocket planes could be buffed in a different way like for instance improve their speed boost duration? Iirc they had nerfed speedboost speed as a nerf to make them less effective against mostly destroyers. Now that they have gotten an extra ineffectiveness, perhaps this previous nerf could be changed?

 

Just tossing in a suggestion btw.

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[EUTF]
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Played 3 coop and 2 randoms with a cv (2 t8 JPN - 2 t8 usa - 1 t10 usa)

 

I cant understand who on your management board decide to spend time-effort and money on this change
Im not an expert on cv - i would say im newbie cause i hardly played a cv in the live (3 rts games and 1 after rrreeeework)

If you exclude my 1st match that i hard to understand the mechanic my follow match i could asjust and play around of the change
The only big difference now is that you get an extra timer (around 5sec depending on tier and nation) that the crosshair now is static and you can click when ever you want to fire the rockets which also on these timer their are some machine guns spray on the water so the player to see where the rockets can land.

 

Sadly to say the machine gun animation doesnt start fast and if i double click when the crosshair of rockets become from yellow to green the rockets will fire and i dont have to wait or bother for the new animation.

 

The change is just to make some people happy that you can say on your videos that we care and we listen our feedback and maybe have your managers pat your back. For new or bad cv players these change can alter their damage on dd's but for good players these mean almost nothing. Bad dd players will still be annihilated and whine again. You should consider other changes for the rockets.

 

Make rockets do less damage on dd only like ap shells do to them - like 30-40% less # adjust accordingly to tests
Make cv spoting to be limited and like when you are on a cyclone so when you are spoting any ship taht will be displayed on the map but only if a ship is like 8-10km close to your planes will can see the enemy ship and render to them - maybe add the radar delayed on there some how.

 

Just listen and get some good feedback from your experience and top cv players
... i know i know i have better luck winning joker :p

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It is a big nerf for CVs. Much too big. CVs cannot hit the average DD who knows how to play anymore. Stop nerfing CVs pls. The delay while attacking is horrible.

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Good to see  - years later - the CV rework going from strength to strength with an neverending influx of well thought out and flawlessly implemented ideas. 

 

 

Making CVs as disgusting to play as they are disgusting to play against, has to be the most sublime way of balancing.

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[GLOBS]
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On 5/27/2021 at 11:20 PM, DasBootBoat said:

I post very rarely but this time I feel compelled to do so.

I really dislike the way this was implemented, the machine guns as a measure of where and when an attack is coming is a pretty good idea actually.

 

But the delay in the attack proper is atrocious, it takes way too long, I struggled to hit even bigger ships.

 

I play lots on both destroyers and carriers (not that im actually good in any but I digress) and I have yet to experience the so called brokenness and OPness of the cvs... and the aa being ineffective..

that is not my experience, my planes get chewed up constantly so that sometimes I cant even get an attack run in. A lone ship with weak aa, sure. But smart players join forces and pool their aa,  Id say more often than not my squadron never reaches them.

 

I really dont understand the hate towards cvs, and every so often I get the obligatory "duh, cv noob.. duh.. we lost because of you" or the classic "no support from cv, report him! Call the spanish inquisition!!!" when some idiot gets in trouble on the other side of the map and enemies are overrunning all cap points and a cv can only be so many places at once.

 

Sure, when Im in a destroyer it can be a pain to go against the rocket planes, but they can be dodged, ive done so many times, it depends on the cvs skill and yours. And when youre focused by the cv, its worse to be in a sluggish battleship, think nelson for example (although shes a riot to play!) and torpedoes keep coming and you just cant dodge?

 

So by that way of thinking, I as battleship driver want the torps to be slower, be seen further and also a 40 second cooldown with each strike, they also must ask permission before touching your hull.. its ridiculous for sure, but some discussions ive seen about cvs arent much better.

 

Now one thing that was promised several versions ago was to not have 4 cvs in a match, now that is annoying. But they are "working on it" . I guess its too much trouble too implement something like

if(cvs==2) {

  thereAreEnoughAlready();

}

 

Kindly pass this along to your dev team.

And by the way... Having tier VI ships mixed in with VIII and IX is extremely unfair!! (or is it VII with X? bah, its unfair either way)

Especially taking into account that ships in a division cant be more than 1 tier apart, the matchmaker should follow the same  rule!

 

Sorry for the rant, fair skies!

 

P.S. And yes, nobody expects the spanish inquisition so be on your toes at all times!

Yep I couldn't have put it better my self . with the new Attack mechanic . . I gave up on DD's and Cruisers and focused the Battleships , as I was more likely to get a rocket to hit .

I also play all Classes and on Stream the other day even the CV haters in my Community were agreeing that the pause between the machine guns and the rockets was far too long . and just being Mini Map aware will save a DD most of the time, as they have time to " Just Dodge"  ( Love that saying )

if you are going to implement this I feel it will undo all the work you did in the CV change to get more people playing the class . 

Unless you give the Attack Aircraft a longer Speed Boost ( Double it maybe) and remove the pause between the Machineguns and the rockets firing . . maybe.

as for AA I can agree it works just fine and sometime can be OP. When Bottom tier I am just a spotter in most cases unless a silly Sausage goes alone out on a flank then it's game on .

but to be honest most of the time Captains buddy up, and that in most cases just shuts the CV down.

yes please just 1 CV a side in all tiers . it is hard for an average CV player to get good damage , but having to share it halves the damage possible . . .and the whingeing from the players just makes it sad really .

The understanding that the CV can only be at one place at a time and is not you personal chaperone is the main reason for the whinging and whining that I get . and Education of some kind might be a good idea ,

but then these are the people who don't engage with videos and have a certain mindset which is still in RTS Style .

These are my thoughts after the first PTS phase . . looking forward to the next phase. I need as much practice as I can get . . . I will Conqueror these Fighters . . .

I'll Be Back. . . 

Good Luck on the High Seas Captains  :Smile_honoring:

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On 5/31/2021 at 3:12 PM, Wolfsgrimm said:

almost all my time to spot and attack DDs, which is not credited by the game.

Maybe XP gained from spotting damage should not just count the damage, but also should include percentage, as is for the normal damage inflicted.

 

For ex. you spot a DD and your team kills it. Causing 19K damage. You get more XP because %100 of the DD's health destroyed by your spotting.

You spot a BB, which has 100K health, and your team does 30 K damage, you get less XP than the last DD example.

 

Should help "somewhat" with an already bad model.

 

 

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[WSNME]
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another try to balance a class, that is alien to all other classes. The decision to reimplement CVs does add so much distress, but it seems it must be, because some upper ecolons have spoken so.

 

The different ways already tried, to make this balanced could have been funny so far, if it wouldn't make you feel like crying instead. Wonder, what clever solution will be next.

 

For me, I stopped playing all my ships. I have reduced the ships I play to those who have a T21 captain and the for them usable premiums.

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Hey WG, I really don't think this change to the attack planes was well thought through. I understand you mean to improve DD survivability in exchanges with CVs, but let's dive into the reasons I think it could have been done better.

 

It seems to me that, instead of finding an easy solution, you went all the way around to the complicated one. Changing mechanics is more likely to lose you CV players than to earn you new DD players. CVs are already sparsely found on matches anyway (once every 3 or 4 matches at best). So instead of all of what you've done, just work with what you got:

 

I like the idea of giving DDs a "warning" so they can try to avoid the rockets better (currently, rockets feel cheap, I agree. The DD player sees the planes coming and a few seconds later, boom, rockets hit).

Nevertheless, gameplay-wise, you are adding a delay on top of a delay. There is already a delay  between the mouse click that initiates aiming/sighting, and the following mouse click that achieves the desired result (launching the rockets). This additional delay ends up disconnecting the CV player from the experience of actually launching the rockets (which is the main reason players choose to use those planes). CV players don't choose attack planes to shoot harmless machineguns, they want to shoot rockets, so this additional delay removes the CV players' immediate agency from the rocket launching mechanic itself, lessening the experience and the immersion of being in that planes pilot seat. Again, it is a delay on top of a delay, which is different for every carrier (nation- and tier-wise), forcing CV players to re-learn their target-leading skill from the ground up all over again.

 

- Suggestion: Add the machinegun animations to alert the DDs while the CV player is aiming/sighting, in that existing time gap between mouse click 1 (aim) and mouse click 2 (fire). While the CV player is aiming/sighting, the machinegun shots will land on the water continuously during this interval, drawing a trajectory line of water splashes towards where the rockets will likely land once the machinegun salvo stops.

 

DDs are already very mobile, so seeing a machinegun salvo drawing a line towards them should be more than enough for them to foresee where rockets will land. DO NOT add another delay. Instead, Occam's Razor: all DDs need is a visible (and hopefully also audible) indication that attack planes are incoming and taking aim. Interpreting trajectories is a skill that DD players already have, and now would have a better chance of developing said skill when defensively to deal with rockets, just as they do offensively when aiming torpedoes. All of that without incurring the risk of CV players feeling like their target-leading skill, developed over time and dedication, is being thrown back to the drawing board. No need to complicate and risk CV players' anger, just give DDs as much a defensive solution as you give the offensive one. DD players are smart enough to use that skill defensively too, without you penalizing CV players for their own skill. It is the simplest way to bring balance to a once one-sided interaction.

 

Now, the aforementioned suggestion is a short-term one. Let's talk sustainability and think long-term: the best way to get DD players to learn how to avoid CV rockets is to stimulate DD players to learn how to play CVs themselves, so they learn the "enemies' " mechanics and know ho to defend against them. Most DD criticism to CVs comes from DD players who DO NOT even play CVs themselves, but still somewhat justifiably so. As I said before, changing mechanics is more likely to lose you CV players than to earn you new DD players.

 

In summary:

- Step 1: don't add a delay on top of a delay, thus penalizing years of CV target-leading skill development. Use the already existing aim-to-fire mouseclick1-to-mouseclick2 delay to provide visual information for the DDs to avoid rockets. The machinegun salvo looks great, use it, DD players are not st*pid, they'll quickly adapt their offensive trajectory interpretation skill to a defensive scenario. All of that without making CV players feel like their own skill has been set back to zero.

- Step 2: come up with a way to stimulate CV play, so that more people want to play them and, by learning to play them, also learn how to defend against them. (I bet you wouldn't mind selling more CVs or resources for people to unlock more CVs; now would ya?)

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CV vs. DD interaction definitely needs to change. Add a camo bonus to DDs vs planes, so the CV can only spot it or attack when a DD is already spotted. With this rocket change, the entire attack mechanic gets artificially complicated and it indirectly nerfs CVs like Indomitable (with only 2 plane types) and CVs with AP rockets that need a proper plannable broadside to shoot at. The current proposal is a complete failure in my eyes. And again, yes CV vs. DD interaction needs to change.

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[TOHOU]
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clearly a idea for favouring the dd player , time to perform an attack takes too long , and planes slow down so people can shoot them down quicker

and t 10 aa isnt a joke , played some test games in mvr with full tank build on planes

you can only launch 1 strike and then your planes are dead and dont think about getting another strike off xD

i think its made for 2+ cv games when people do multiple strikes together on a target

 

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From those posts the changes looks good. Less players playing CV = beter game for others :-)

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Well.. phase 2 of the test and no changes or mentions of changing the attack planes behaviour. I have played today and its all the same.

Although now the test sinchornized with my real account.. woohoo!....

Beetween me and other users here, there have been very good suggestions on tweaking this to be actually pretty awesome for dd and cv captains

 

IE: a bullet trail during the sighting/arming phase up to clicking a second time and firing the rockets.

The dds skill in evading against the cvs skill at keeping the sight on target. What could be more fair than that?!

 

Will WG listen? Im guessing untill/if the twitch TV heavyweights or unicums or whatever theyre called roast this implementation.. our cvs will stay parked on port...

I bought Kaga (which if you look it up on the portuguese language is a hilarious name), I was thinking of FDR as my first steel ship, but not anymore.

These are not muskets, with the delay beetween pressing the trigger and firing the bullet...

 

@TheWarJaC I find your lack of feedback.. disturbing...

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@Odo_Toothless If you dont mind.. why would your opinion of cvs be an excuse to render unplayable 1/3 of the armament of a whole class of ships?
You a dd guy? Learn to evade... You-ve got a fair share of battles under your belt, you should know that already.

Other ship type? Well.. dont yolo in guns blazing and expect your aa to finish off everyone.
Im wondering what would you and the other cv hating squeakers out there think if your favorite ship type where to have such a treatment ?

 

I swear.. If I had a nickle for every little crybaby whining about cvs, Id be richer than Bezos.

JEEZ!

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Just limit the number of planes on a CV and all will be well. That way the CV capitan will have to manage the risk and be equal to other players.

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The idea with the delay of the attack is hopeless, actually from the beginning you have to learn to fly, and the effectiveness is tragic. As it would be too easily, especially at higher levels. Weak

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[D-H-S]
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this to inplement in the wil loose a lot of captains what play more CV's because of this.

it's rearly a joke it takes to long to fire rockets.

i play normal more DD's and i don't mind there are CV's in the game.

but you have play smarter when thy are in the game.

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