Haida & Orkan Secondary guns and captain skill rework

[Beastofwar]

Both Haida and Orkan have a secondary gun turret instead of a valuable 2nd torpedo launcher or a main gun turret.. This alone is a designed hefty nerf to their performance ofcourse, but on top of that both also have an unreasonable low range of only 4 km. 

 

I don't know what other DD captains are doing, but i usually fight at longer ranges then 4 km to have reaction time dealing with incoming torpedoes. These secondary guns therefore are completely useless with 4 km range, and i do not like having useless things on my ships. IRL every kilo of weight, certainly above the center of gravity better had use too !

 

Both these ships are pre-captain skill rework as well. That means before the captain skill rework the statistics of these guns could be boosted -  BFT and AFT - and they were likely balanced with those options in mind. But that option is no longer there.

 

Is this an oversight due to the captain skill rework ? Can the now missing BFT/AFT values be corrected in these guns ? Knowing how (in)accurate secondary guns spray, plus their inability to penetrate 19 mm DD hulls i hardly expect this to overpower these DD's. But at least these guns will do something usefull then taking up space that should have been a 2nd torpedo laucher or a main gun turret !

 

 

[fumtu]

49 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

... and they were likely balanced with those options in mind.

 

No, they are not. Those guns were used for balance purposes only for AA. Not that they are very useful in that role either.

 

Also, Haida never lost a gun turret to "secondary" guns, as it never had fourth main gun turret in the first place. Same for Orkan which never had a aft torpedo launcher but only one 4inch AA gun instead. So both models are historically correct, at least in regard to their armament.

[Beastofwar]

8 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

No, they are not. Those guns were used for balance purposes only for AA. Not that they are very useful in that role either.

 

Also, Haida never lost a gun turret to "secondary" guns, as it never had fourth main gun turret in the first place. Same for Orkan which never had a aft torpedo launcher but only one 4inch AA gun instead. So both models are historically correct, at least in regard to their armament.

 

Did they have 4 km range ?

[El2aZeR]

51 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

they were likely balanced with those options in mind.

 

[ForlornSailor]

4 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

Did they have 4 km range ? 

 

Or... we get Wargaming to introdoce yet another AWESOME NATIONAL FLAVOR CONSUMABLE :tm: by giving such DDs access to:

Boosts reload and range of secondary modules by 500% for 20 seconds!

So you can turn the one secondary mount temporary into a pissing tower with 20 kilometer range and a 0,2 sec reload.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

1 hour ago, Beastofwar said:

and i do not like having useless things on my ships.

I am going to restrain myself and not state the obvious. 

[lafeel]

1 hour ago, Beastofwar said:

Both Haida and Orkan have a secondary gun turret instead of a valuable 2nd torpedo launcher or a main gun turret.. This alone is a designed hefty nerf to their performance ofcourse, but on top of that both also have an unreasonable low range of only 4 km. 

 

Correction: Only Orkan has a secondary gun in place of her second torpedo launcher. The Tribals never had more than one torpedo launcher. 

 

If you want to see what the Haida would have looked like before, see Cossack.

[fumtu]

21 minutes ago, lafeel said:

If you want to see what the Haida would have looked like before, see Cossack.

 

Again, Haida never had 4th 4.7inch gun turret, it never looked as the Cossack in the game. Not all Tribal class destroyers were built the same, with four 4.7inch turrets. Out of 8 Canadian Tribals, none had 4x2 4.7inch guns. 5 were built with 3x2 4.7inch guns + 1x2 4inch mount, including Haida, while 3 were equipped with 4x2 4inch guns. None of three Australian Tribals ever had 4x2 4.7inch guns either.

 

Haida looked exactly as it looks in the game, at least before her modernisation.

[invicta2012]

1 hour ago, Beastofwar said:

This alone is a designed hefty nerf to their performance ofcourse, but on top of that both also have an unreasonable low range of only 4 km. 

I think that is right, it's the same as the secondaries on Furious. Different rules apply for cruisers and BBs.

 

The one on Orkan is a panic AA measure, and completely loopy as it's a WW1 gun stuck to one of the few RN DDs with a DP main battery. Not really worth fussing over. 

[lafeel]

15 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

Again, Haida never had 4th 4.7inch gun turret, it never looked as the Cossack in the game. Not all Tribal class destroyers were built the same, with four 4.7inch turrets. Out of 8 Canadian Tribals, none had 4x2 4.7inch guns. 5 were built with 3x2 4.7inch guns + 1x2 4inch mount, including Haida, while 3 were equipped with 4x2 4inch guns. None of three Australian Tribals ever had 4x2 4.7inch guns either.

 

Haida looked exactly as it looks in the game, at least before her modernisation.

As originally planned she did. True enough that she was not built that way, though.

 

In case it's not obvious, both replacing the X 120mm mount with a 102mm one (Tribals) and or the aft tubes with a 102mm single was a attempt to improve their AA. How successfull it was can be summed up as "not really" as they didn't have any real AA fire control to go with them, other than the gunner's eyes.

[Beastofwar]

53 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

I think that is right, it's the same as the secondaries on Furious. Different rules apply for cruisers and BBs.

 

The one on Orkan is a panic AA measure, and completely loopy as it's a WW1 gun stuck to one of the few RN DDs with a DP main battery. Not really worth fussing over. 

 

However BFT & AFT could before the rework enhance secondary gun values somewhat. Against surface targets. That is now missing, that is the issue brought up.

 

Many secondary guns that are not on BB or Cruisers seem forgotten by developers working on the captain skill rework  and have not only the new general piss poor accuracy affecting all secondary guns but now also completely useless low range that cannot be buffed since AFT & BFT got removed from classes and not all got something back in it's place to compensate.

 

The dissappointing thing is these guns are found on ships no one seems to care about : a few DD and most ( non German ) CV. And CV did receive a means to enhance secondary guns, although no one in their right mind would invest 4 points into that given you need ALL the points into your planes or lose extreme amounts of combat efficientcy. DD have not received such a replacement skill.....even though most would probably not take it since it does nothing for their main battery or AA anymore.

 

Old BFT&AFT enhanced the main battery aswell.....it was perfectly viable to take these skills, and more then likely it WAS balanced that way. Including the odd secondaries on these DD.

 

 

 

 

 

[lameoll]

2 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

ike having useless things on my ships

but but .... the ships have a captain 

[invicta2012]

8 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

However BFT & AFT could before the rework enhance secondary gun values somewhat. Against surface targets. That is now missing, that is the issue brought up.

This is true, and they could normalise the Haida mount to 5km. It's quite potent against DDs of the same Tier/lower Tier (firing 2 shells every 3 seconds) but everyone would probably say the ship is strong enough as-is. It was also match the Kiev's ultra-stronk secondaries (which I have one kill with...). 

[MementoMori_6030]

WG ruined my 2ndary build Umikaze A... 

[Beastofwar]

35 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

This is true, and they could normalise the Haida mount to 5km. It's quite potent against DDs of the same Tier/lower Tier (firing 2 shells every 3 seconds) but everyone would probably say the ship is strong enough as-is. It was also match the Kiev's ultra-stronk secondaries (which I have one kill with...). 

 

You are right !  I had forgotten there was a RU DD with a secondary mount too, since it was tech tree and i progressed past it and sold it.

 

It goes for that one too ofcourse.

 

I dont expect secondary accuracy as it have become after the captain skill rework allows these single mounts to transform into OP killing machines........but it would sure be nice if they once in a while hit and at least contributed to fighting that enemy somewhat. And for that they really need more then 4 km. Which does not offend historic references at all.

[Jethro_Grey]

1 hour ago, MementoMori_6030 said:

WG ruined my 2ndary build Umikaze A... 

There are two achievements i want in WoWS.

First, the solo warrior and almost more importantly, a CQE with a secondary equipped DD. 

 

Soon...

[Verblonde]

14 minutes ago, Jethro_Grey said:

a CQE with a secondary equipped DD. 

Before the captain rework, but:

 

 

 

Orkan to try for next...

[Trench4nt]

The most funny thing about Haida's sec is that it has a higher fire chance than the main guns. And I already got one with it. 

[invicta2012]

1 hour ago, Verblonde said:

Orkan to try for next...

You'll have a job. That's a proper pop-gun...

 

(Although I have to say that I can't understand how I have a secondary kill in a Kiev. Even in dear old Co-op, Kiev's secondaries are a twin 85mm flak gun with 14mm of pen. What did it hit?)

 

(I also think that the new German Destroyers would be immensely improved with a couple of 88mm flak guns on the side, just in case they.... came across some floating tanks or similar)

[Verblonde]

41 minutes ago, Trench4nt said:

The most funny thing about Haida's sec is that it has a higher fire chance than the main guns. And  I already got one with it. 

I've got a feeling that the real thing blew up a train with that mount, but don't quote me...

[fumtu]

47 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

(Although I have to say that I can't understand how I have a secondary kill in a Kiev. Even in dear old Co-op, Kiev's secondaries are a twin 85mm flak gun with 14mm of pen. What did it hit?)

 

T6-T7 DDs have 10mm superstructure, T8-T10 DDs only 13mm. T7 cruisers and bellow have 10-13mm superstructure, some T6-T7 cruisers have 13mm bow and stern, like UK CLs or Atlanta. T8 to T10 CLs have 13mm superstructure but I'm not sure if that was only after IFHE rework. But basically there is a lot of 13mm (or less) armoured plates among DDs and CLs and T6-T7 CAs to be penned by Kiev secondaries.

[invicta2012]

5 minutes ago, fumtu said:

T6-T7 DDs have 10mm superstructure, T8-T10 DDs only 13mm. T7 cruisers and bellow have 10-13mm superstructure, some T6-T7 cruisers have 13mm bow and stern, like UK CLs or Atlanta. T8 to T10 CLs have 13mm superstructure but I'm not sure if that was only after IFHE rework. But basically there is a lot of 13mm (or less) armoured plates among DDs and CLs and T6-T7 CAs to be penned by Kiev secondaries.

Cheers- it was something of a rhetorical question, tbh - the pen was less of a problem than the range! 

[HystericalAccuracy]

6 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

Although I have to say that I can't understand how I have a secondary kill in a Kiev.

Things happen. Once I got two secondary-kills in one battle; with the Katori Sadly all my screenshots before 2020 are gone.

[MementoMori_6030]

Vor 7 Stunden, Jethro_Grey sagte:

First, the solo warrior and almost more importantly, a CQE with a secondary equipped DD. 

I think I actually made some kills with the Umi's 2ndaries, but iirc those were in coop... 

[HMS_Kilinowski]

17 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

Both Haida and Orkan have a secondary gun turret instead of a valuable 2nd torpedo launcher or a main gun turret.. This alone is a designed hefty nerf to their performance ofcourse, but on top of that both also have an unreasonable low range of only 4 km. 

 

I don't know what other DD captains are doing, but i usually fight at longer ranges then 4 km to have reaction time dealing with incoming torpedoes. These secondary guns therefore are completely useless with 4 km range, and i do not like having useless things on my ships. IRL every kilo of weight, certainly above the center of gravity better had use too !

 

Both these ships are pre-captain skill rework as well. That means before the captain skill rework the statistics of these guns could be boosted -  BFT and AFT - and they were likely balanced with those options in mind. But that option is no longer there.

 

Is this an oversight due to the captain skill rework ? Can the now missing BFT/AFT values be corrected in these guns ? Knowing how (in)accurate secondary guns spray, plus their inability to penetrate 19 mm DD hulls i hardly expect this to overpower these DD's. But at least these guns will do something usefull then taking up space that should have been a 2nd torpedo laucher or a main gun turret !

 

First of all, the missing turret, even if it was supposed to be there or if there was room on the ship for that, is not a nerf. The Haida and Orkan got an arbitrarily fast gun reload that balances the ships against other ships of the same tier in terms of dpm. Needless to say, they perform quite well within their tier. If there was an additional turret then WG would need to increase the reload time and the ships would not be more powerful than they are now.

 

Let's have a reasonable look at that secondary turret. It didn't hit anything before. The only range where it has a chance of hitting anything is under 4km anyway. Atlanta, Flint, Krazny Krym and other ships have become very hard to play as their main armament range was affected by the rework. Dozens of ships were designed around skills, that don't exist anymore, be that the aforementioned low caliber cruisers, or burning for all eterntity big cruisers or smoke cruisers ... . Then there is all the other stuff that is not fixed, like ships getting stuck on islands, the aimbot mod, the issues with the client, the chat server, the missing tutorials, not to speak of all the things WG thinks are fine but we think are not.

The whole game is in shambles. But you go out of your way, making a topic because of that one secondary gun on a DD. Do you really think Wargaming should put that secondary turret on the agenda?