Air rework suggestion

[Olof_szary]

With a new dutch mechanics allowing non-flattops to deploy planes not on top of the plane, an idea came to my mind.
I am aware that it is very unorthodox and may completely ruin a balance, so even if the idea itself is good, it may need a lot of tweaking.

So, some assumptions:
- fighter floatplanes are completely useless in non-cv games,
- in CV games, many players complain that floatplanes are still useless because it only prevents second strike, not the first one,
- late game BBs, and BBs pushing alone are gravely engendered by DDs.

Idea - allow fighter floatplanes to be deployed away from the ship, either for spotting purposes (non-cv games) or as a flank protection (so area denial) using similar mechanics/view as the upcoming dutch parachute bombers.
The range should probably not exceed 10-12 km (not be better than radar but still be viable over islands, or maybe allow longer range but lower significantly the spotting distance of those air groups) and probably require some "warm up" time/indication (so e.g. destroyer in the area have time to react).

of course such change will cause some chain reactions: CVs will be much weaker, but the feeling of playing PvE will transfer to actually playing PvP again. That _might_ require buffing CVs alpha or allowing near misses (especially HEs) to do some damage. Alternatively to buff CVs remove flak rng and just boost standard AA power accordingly.
Spotting may work "similarly" to radar in one given direction, but unlike radar the planes can be shut down. It will change a bit of balance in DD vs CL and DD vs BB engagements (maybe lowering hp on the planes to allow easier shut down but make them immune to AA while launching so it's still possible to launch those if brawling in close quarters).

Biggest hope with rework:
Players no longer feel that they can do nothing agains CVs,
Fighter planes are not useless in non-cv games
maybe encouraging BBs to push a bit more (but by itself it may be not enough to encourage BBs to less passive plays)

Again, it is very "unpolished" idea so even if the core is good, it still needs refinement.

[xe_N_on]

Vor 20 Minuten, Olof_szary sagte:

- late game BBs, and BBs pushing alone are gravely engendered by DDs.

 

Late game BBs are not gravely engendered by DDs if the play smart.

And if they don't play smart, they deserved to be sunk.

 

Because, you know, DDs should counter BBs.

[lovelacebeer]

How would the fighter patrol hinder a CVS first strike though (ignoring the fact WG have been direct in saying they want CVs to be able to get a first strike in) if the patrol area is bigger they will take longer to complete a rotation giving a CV a much bigger window of opportunity to strike unless the fighters are flying supersonic. 
 

Also late game against a DD a battleship has a harder time sure but unless they are exceptionally unaware they should know to zig zag and have a damn good idea there is a DD about considering they are spotted. Also all this Ignores the fact the fighter patrol can still be useful for early warning of checking around islands anyway. 
 

On a final note OP might I suggest this idea be put in the dedicated CV thread you know this one will just descend into the usual suspects of CVs are awful remove vs CVs are so underpowered give them tactical nukes (deliberately exaggerated point for comedic effect before anyone goes off on a rant).

[totally_potato]

2 hours ago, Olof_szary said:

With a new dutch mechanics allowing non-flattops to deploy planes not on top of the plane, an idea came to my mind.
I am aware that it is very unorthodox and may completely ruin a balance, so even if the idea itself is good, it may need a lot of tweaking.

So, some assumptions:
- fighter floatplanes are completely useless in non-cv games,
- in CV games, many players complain that floatplanes are still useless because it only prevents second strike, not the first one,
- late game BBs, and BBs pushing alone are gravely engendered by DDs.

Idea - allow fighter floatplanes to be deployed away from the ship, either for spotting purposes (non-cv games) or as a flank protection (so area denial) using similar mechanics/view as the upcoming dutch parachute bombers.
The range should probably not exceed 10-12 km (not be better than radar but still be viable over islands, or maybe allow longer range but lower significantly the spotting distance of those air groups) and probably require some "warm up" time/indication (so e.g. destroyer in the area have time to react).

of course such change will cause some chain reactions: CVs will be much weaker, but the feeling of playing PvE will transfer to actually playing PvP again. That _might_ require buffing CVs alpha or allowing near misses (especially HEs) to do some damage. Alternatively to buff CVs remove flak rng and just boost standard AA power accordingly.
Spotting may work "similarly" to radar in one given direction, but unlike radar the planes can be shut down. It will change a bit of balance in DD vs CL and DD vs BB engagements (maybe lowering hp on the planes to allow easier shut down but make them immune to AA while launching so it's still possible to launch those if brawling in close quarters).

Biggest hope with rework:
Players no longer feel that they can do nothing agains CVs,
Fighter planes are not useless in non-cv games
maybe encouraging BBs to push a bit more (but by itself it may be not enough to encourage BBs to less passive plays)

Again, it is very "unpolished" idea so even if the core is good, it still needs refinement.

Not a bad suggestion. I suggest you rethink it and made a second post regarding this on this thread or the dedicated CV thread

[159Hunter]

Not a fan of making floatplanes deployable spotting planes. This is the exact same issue I have with CV planes: risk-free-spotting.

[CherryWood]

It could be a way in a dream-oh-so-wonderfull-world without CVs, to actually have spotting plane that could actually spot something (and spot torps like it did in the past) and not just magically make guns fire further. Those stealth destroyers could use some counter, especially in low tiers. Now it's like no-CV=free reign over all BBs, or CV=usually unfun game for dd full of hiding from planes.

 

Anything to make fighter consumable stronger against CV would be great, as they are kind of meh now. It could be nice to have it targetable to fly defend other ships and not just yours, giving it some tactical use, similar to how old rts fighters could be ordered to defend a ship.

 

Having AA defense fire/Fighter plane consumables automatically switch to something else in non-CV games could be a nice quality of life addition too.

[Olof_szary]

The post was made a rough idea mostly because I am an average player (mostly playing sims, salem and midway) and the details would need to be well balanced, but to answer some concerns:

- deployable spotting planes being risk free is the same as saying radar is risk free. Partially yes, but you still need to be in range. And whereas radar gives you 360deg it would give you 40-60 deg max, and you can't shot down radar, unless you sink that ship

- regarding first strike - now floatplanes mostly start doing damage after the first drop is done. With that change floatplanes may start doing damage much earlier, so combined with AA overlap it can completely remove a squadron. But that would give you the safety only from one angle (eg preventing broadside torps from outer line). If you are all by yourself, you would still be hit from the other side. So the surface ship player has to decide if he prefers to deal damage to planes after the first drop to mitigate the second one (and put the planes on top of his ship) or to send the planes further, protecting one flank but making it vulnerable to head on attack or the other flank. In my opinion it's much more fair than the flak randomness or decision making regarding dodging the planes, especially if dodging planes means giving broadside to enemy BBs.

- regarding BB vs DD now the only "active" thing BB can do is to try to guess where DD is and blind shot it (there was a video by Potato Quality where he completely blind shot DD based on the spotting indicator). With that change, BB has a chance (once every 1.30-2 min) to drop planes and spot DD (if he knows where DD is hiding, thus giving him a single salvo against DD).

If you have a positive feedback on how to improve such idea feel free to comment, I will post improved version in CV thread over the weekend.

[CherryWood]

Well, it definitely make more sense then radar that goes through mountains  There was a defence for BB's against stealth-torping DD's in the form of radio skill, but that has been removed so it seems that WG plans are to make it harder and not easier...

[MrWastee]

inb4 lock

[Rockstone_III]

I like the idea, but it will be hell on DD's. 
With this, 70% of the ships (or there abouts) has a radar, sort of. A focussed one and a DD might still hide in smoke, but it will mess up the DD-gameplay. 
After all, any decend BB player will know from what angle to expect a DD. And if the BB player wants to make a turn, he can now send a scout to see of there might be a DD in that path, greatly limiting his chances of getting a torpedo broadside...

 

This one needs some "testing"... 

[Olof_szary]

1 hour ago, Commander_Rockstone said:

I like the idea, but it will be hell on DD's. 
With this, 70% of the ships (or there abouts) has a radar, sort of. A focussed one and a DD might still hide in smoke, but it will mess up the DD-gameplay. 
After all, any decend BB player will know from what angle to expect a DD. And if the BB player wants to make a turn, he can now send a scout to see of there might be a DD in that path, greatly limiting his chances of getting a torpedo broadside...

 

This one needs some "testing"... 

Well, yes and no. In non-cv games it would be a bit closer to CV games (therefore reducing the huge gap between two "modes"). In CV games on the other hand it may be helpful for DDs. Now, non halland DDs usually struggle a lot with drops. Cruisers usually don't push as hard as DD's and stay 3-5 km behind, usually next to an island that further reduces AA usefulness in supporting allied DD's. So, assuming that the fighter may be deployed up to 5 (or 7 km but 7 may be too much) from mother ship, DD's would be actually at least partially protected. Imagine start of ranked battle with 2 DDs 3 cruisers and battleship and CV. CV is only able to protect a single cap approach with his fighter planes, unless he decides to drop his fighters on a spotting duty near the enemies (to make DDs or cruisers visible for the BB to shot at). With long range floatplane fighters, cruisers can protect both cap approaches. Of course, CV can do a counter play by dropping his fighters on the edge of surface ship fighters squadron to get rid of those, but it still delays the drop by 15-20 seconds.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

23 hours ago, xe_N_on said:

 

Late game BBs are not gravely engendered by DDs if the play smart.

And if they don't play smart, they deserved to be sunk.

 

Meaning if the BB's run away? That's the only smart tactic I know of.

 

23 hours ago, xe_N_on said:

 

Because, you know, DDs should counter BBs.

 

Under certain circumstances.

 

@OP. Don't worry about anything ruining the balance. That's been keelhauled ages ago. The problem here is, those planes make zero difference against CV strikes, and are completely useless in no-CV battles. What the game is missing is 'recon' planes, the only realistic counter to CV's are CV's, as it should be... but, curiously enough, isn't.

[The_Chiv]

23 hours ago, xe_N_on said:

 

Late game BBs are not gravely engendered by DDs if the play smart.

And if they don't play smart, they deserved to be sunk.

 

Because, you know, DDs should counter BBs.

Remind me again what is the hard counter to a dd?

[159Hunter]

1 hour ago, The_Chiv said:

Remind me again what is the hard counter to a dd?

CV :)

[The_Chiv]

1 hour ago, 159Hunter said:

CV :)

So what does a CA counter?

[lexius87]

your will to live

[ghostbuster_]

On 5/13/2021 at 12:26 PM, Olof_szary said:

With a new dutch mechanics allowing non-flattops to deploy planes not on top of the plane, an idea came to my mind.
I am aware that it is very unorthodox and may completely ruin a balance, so even if the idea itself is good, it may need a lot of tweaking.

So, some assumptions:
- fighter floatplanes are completely useless in non-cv games,
- in CV games, many players complain that floatplanes are still useless because it only prevents second strike, not the first one,
- late game BBs, and BBs pushing alone are gravely engendered by DDs.

Idea - allow fighter floatplanes to be deployed away from the ship, either for spotting purposes (non-cv games) or as a flank protection (so area denial) using similar mechanics/view as the upcoming dutch parachute bombers.
The range should probably not exceed 10-12 km (not be better than radar but still be viable over islands, or maybe allow longer range but lower significantly the spotting distance of those air groups) and probably require some "warm up" time/indication (so e.g. destroyer in the area have time to react).

of course such change will cause some chain reactions: CVs will be much weaker, but the feeling of playing PvE will transfer to actually playing PvP again. That _might_ require buffing CVs alpha or allowing near misses (especially HEs) to do some damage. Alternatively to buff CVs remove flak rng and just boost standard AA power accordingly.
Spotting may work "similarly" to radar in one given direction, but unlike radar the planes can be shut down. It will change a bit of balance in DD vs CL and DD vs BB engagements (maybe lowering hp on the planes to allow easier shut down but make them immune to AA while launching so it's still possible to launch those if brawling in close quarters).

Biggest hope with rework:
Players no longer feel that they can do nothing agains CVs,
Fighter planes are not useless in non-cv games
maybe encouraging BBs to push a bit more (but by itself it may be not enough to encourage BBs to less passive plays)

Again, it is very "unpolished" idea so even if the core is good, it still needs refinement.

Another mechanic to spot DDs? No. There are already enough counters to DDs. We do t need another one.

Buffing CV? It gotta be a really good sht what you have been smoking. 

[ghostbuster_]

53 minutes ago, The_Chiv said:

So what does a CA counter?

There are sht ton of counters to DDs. 

-cv

-radar (akka cruisers/CLs&CAs)

-other DDs

-hydro

-soon subs.

 

[159Hunter]

58 minutes ago, The_Chiv said:

So what does a CA counter?

nothing, that's just for people who like to suffer

[The_Chiv]

2 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

nothing, that's just for people who like to suffer

7 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

There are sht ton of counters to DDs. 

-cv

-radar (akka cruisers/CLs&CAs)

-other DDs

-hydro

-soon subs.

 

[ghostbuster_]

11 minutes ago, The_Chiv said:

 

Delusions? Care to elaborate?

[Miscommunication_dept]

1 hour ago, The_Chiv said:

So what does a CA counter?

Pushing battleships.

 

Have you seen one recently?

[159Hunter]

Just now, gopher31 said:

Pushing battleships.

 

Have you seen one recently?

Yes, those coop bots are realy nasty

[The_Chiv]

18 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

Delusions? Care to elaborate?

1. Yes a cv can counter a dd as they remove its one advantage, much in the same way overmatch does to a CA.

2.Radar boats...OK lets get started here. Radar is a limited use consumable with a very short duration. Its ranges are very well known, or should be known if you plan to play a dd. There are a total of 36 ships that can have radar as an option in this game. if we ignore the bb and the dds that leaves 29 cruisers total from t7-10 have radar out of 93 total cruisers. THIS IS LESS THEN 33%. Radar is limited use, limited range and due to concealment differences between radar range and cruiser concealment range, can leave it wasted by skilled dd players who can run out of its range before it expires. Radar, unlike dd conceal and bb overmatch is a consumable and at best is a temporary counter against dds not a true hard counter like a dd can be to a bb or how a bb can be to a CA.

3. So the counter to a class is itself? No. While yes this is true and there are variants in ships themselves that makes these match up favor one side over the other to say it is a hard counter is false. I would never expect a Shimakaze to win a gun duel with a Harogumo, however I would expect the Shimakaze to use their superior conceal to keep the Harogumo spotted for the rest of the fleet. This is how they balance each other out and in a way gives the advantage to the Shimakaze. Now if two Shimas spot each other and begin slugging it out it then becomes a battle of skill with some rng, trust me you will generally never see this match up happen. Now while a DD can beat another dd this is not the same as hard countering them. As before a DD can hard counter a BB because stealth plus torps against a large target tends to equal massive hits of 10k-100k(yes and you can do it in a halland) A dd can in fact one shot a bb much in the same what a bb can one shot CA. The CA however can not one shot the DD, unless they are Italian and get some god level RNG or they hit with a lucky torp or in most cases 2.

4. Hydro. So yeah Hydro for the most part is very up close and personal. if you are spotted via hydro that means you were trying to lay and ambush(cause you were being greedy) or you were sitting in your smoke trying to damage farm, or you were pushing a cap and decided to smoke up to have a measure of security. All of these actions are self serving to your own interest and are not teamplay oriented and is karmic justice if you are spotted by hydro.

5. You do realize the primary hunters of Subs historically were dds right? Subs will most likely not be able to provide spotting information the way a surface ship does or as a  cv can.

 

[xe_N_on]

Vor 5 Stunden, The_Chiv sagte:

Remind me again what is the hard counter to a dd?

 

Who needs a hard counter of the ship class with the lowest average damage, anyway?