Matched Battles

[steel_anvil]

Im no more than a mediocre player, and this topic has probably been proposed before, but once in a while you still have to say something.

 

I propose something called matched battles.

 

Because win or loose, the battles that I most enjoy are the ones, that a tied right down to the last second. Battles won or lost in the first 7-8 minutes are basically no fun at all.

 

One example, and yes lets pick a CV game, where the game ended up with only 1 CV on each side. The reds has way more points but their one CV had little life left. Our CV was a complete noob, but he got 1 torp in 2 or 3 seconds before the clock ran out and we won the match.

 

The random MM today to my understanding matches ships.

 

If you place that in the school yard, and the two best players in school are picking teams for a match, it corresponds to that they would ensure that both teams have a player each with equally nice shoes and t-shirts. One player on each team with roughly the same eye or hair color.

 

In my small experience, I think that an experience player with an inferior ship can take out a newcommer with a great premium ship, even a couple of tiers higher.

 

The probability of an enjoyable player experience from this kind of matchmaking is fairly low.

 

I would like to raise that probability, because i do enjoy the game, but I think players could get more exiting matches, if the players were matched on their capabilities instead of their ships. 

 

A more enjoyable player experience should also mean more players, in theory anyways.

 

So, matched battles where you pick a pool of players 0-2 CV's for each team, a pool of bb's,cruisers, dd's and then distribute the players to teams based on their stats. I will leave the particulars to people much smarter than me.

 

In my opinion, that would raise the proability of getting games that stay exiting right down to the last second of the match.

 

Nice to get that said.

 

Have a great wargaming day.

[ColonelPete]

That is called Clan Battles.

[Camperdown]

4 minutes ago, steel_anvil said:

Im no more than a mediocre player, and this topic has probably been proposed before, but once in a while you still have to say something.

 

I propose something called matched battles.

 

Because win or loose, the battles that I most enjoy are the ones, that a tied right down to the last second. Battles won or lost in the first 7-8 minutes are basically no fun at all.

 

One example, and yes lets pick a CV game, where the game ended up with only 1 CV on each side. The reds has way more points but their one CV had little life left. Our CV was a complete noob, but he got 1 torp in 2 or 3 seconds before the clock ran out and we won the match.

 

The random MM today to my understanding matches ships.

 

If you place that in the school yard, and the two best players in school are picking teams for a match, it corresponds to that they would ensure that both teams have a player each with equally nice shoes and t-shirts. One player on each team with roughly the same eye or hair color.

 

In my small experience, I think that an experience player with an inferior ship can take out a newcommer with a great premium ship, even a couple of tiers higher.

 

The probability of an enjoyable player experience from this kind of matchmaking is fairly low.

 

I would like to raise that probability, because i do enjoy the game, but I think players could get more exiting matches, if the players were matched on their capabilities instead of their ships. 

 

A more enjoyable player experience should also mean more players, in theory anyways.

 

So, matched battles where you pick a pool of players 0-2 CV's for each team, a pool of bb's,cruisers, dd's and then distribute the players to teams based on their stats. I will leave the particulars to people much smarter than me.

 

In my opinion, that would raise the proability of getting games that stay exiting right down to the last second of the match.

 

Nice to get that said.

 

Have a great wargaming day.

Hi new poster, welcome to this forum.

On the top of this page is a pinned matchmaking thread where suggestions like this have been discussed ad infinitum.

Unfortunately WG has no intention to change MM.

[steel_anvil]

True, i dont propose to changed random battles, but to introduce a new type of battle.

[steel_anvil]

You are right of course, but active clan battlers are mostly for 50% players and above.

[SV_Kompresor]

1 minute ago, steel_anvil said:

True, i dont propose to changed random battles, but to introduce a new type of battle.

So....clan battles but solo?

[SV_Kompresor]

1 minute ago, steel_anvil said:

You are right of course, but active clan battlers are mostly for 50% players and above.

Only higher leagues...obviously... a 50%wr clan should still be able to get to gale at least. Storm of they have an ok-ish FC.

[steel_anvil]

Yeah, clan battles for everyone, 2 teams of a number of players distributed to teams by skill, not ship and tier

[SV_Kompresor]

Wait what? I mean....you can't exactly throw out the ship and tier MM....might aswell just bring 7 CVs then.

 

Either way, I don't think this game mode would work or be fun anyway so....maybe as an event sometime.

[GarrusBrutus]

As much as I hate one sided games (and they become more frequent over time it seems) this isn't the solution. It's rigging the game so more people hover towards 50% wr. 

 

If you're an exceptional player your 11 teammates will be on average worse than your 12 opponents. Every game. And vice versa. So if I know that my performance does nothing but lower my teammates' average skill level, then why should I try to play to the best of my ability? Why not yolo in and die, so that in the future I will get better teammates.

 

The solution to this problem is by banning obvious bot accounts and do a better job at teaching new and/or bad performing players how to play the game. There should be more, better and more detailed information how a players' performance influences the battle. It should be obvious what grants xp and what wins games. Sadly this is unclear for most players and my feeling is that it's intentional by design.

 

A dumb and ignorant playerbase is an easy cashcow to milk. 

 

Furthermore WG should stop pushing high tier content down new players' throats, but unfortunately that ship has already sailed (no pun intended). 

 

New players should be introduced to the game at a nice slow pace instead of this "welcome to WoWs, here is your T9 BB, now go and boom boom". 

[YabbaCoe]

Před 57 minutami steel_anvil řekl/a:

Im no more than a mediocre player, and this topic has probably been proposed before, but once in a while you still have to say something.

 

I propose something called matched battles.

 

Because win or loose, the battles that I most enjoy are the ones, that a tied right down to the last second. Battles won or lost in the first 7-8 minutes are basically no fun at all.

 

One example, and yes lets pick a CV game, where the game ended up with only 1 CV on each side. The reds has way more points but their one CV had little life left. Our CV was a complete noob, but he got 1 torp in 2 or 3 seconds before the clock ran out and we won the match.

 

The random MM today to my understanding matches ships.

 

If you place that in the school yard, and the two best players in school are picking teams for a match, it corresponds to that they would ensure that both teams have a player each with equally nice shoes and t-shirts. One player on each team with roughly the same eye or hair color.

 

In my small experience, I think that an experience player with an inferior ship can take out a newcommer with a great premium ship, even a couple of tiers higher.

 

The probability of an enjoyable player experience from this kind of matchmaking is fairly low.

 

I would like to raise that probability, because i do enjoy the game, but I think players could get more exiting matches, if the players were matched on their capabilities instead of their ships. 

 

A more enjoyable player experience should also mean more players, in theory anyways.

 

So, matched battles where you pick a pool of players 0-2 CV's for each team, a pool of bb's,cruisers, dd's and then distribute the players to teams based on their stats. I will leave the particulars to people much smarter than me.

 

In my opinion, that would raise the proability of getting games that stay exiting right down to the last second of the match.

 

Nice to get that said.

 

Have a great wargaming day.

Hello,

Thank you for your suggestion.

Unfortunately we mentioned several times, that we are currently not planning any skill-based MM, so even your suggestion most likely won't be considered.

But we can talk about your suggestion here.

So in your example, everybody would pick how the battle should look like as ship distribution, also considering higher and lower tiers and than MM would distribute players from the queue how exactly?

[Vbeest]

1 hour ago, steel_anvil said:

I propose something called matched battles.

 

The battles are already matched, just not in the way you would like to. Google WG patented matchmaking.

 

Also, apparently this is really good for business. We had a topic not hat long time ago, where a guy complained that "battles in WoWs are often undecided, while in WoT it is apparent from the very beginning which team will win" and he stated he prefers the latter...

 

Long story short, it will rather get worse not better with time (worse for you, better for WG).

 

[Nov_A]

55 minutes ago, steel_anvil said:

 

Because win or loose, the battles that I most enjoy are the ones, that a tied right down to the last second. Battles won or lost in the first 7-8 minutes are basically no fun at all.

 

Yesterday I interestingly had multiple games that lasted to the final second.

 

First we got a Tirpitz with a hidden profile that spent his time on the map border, trying to snipe a Fuso and complaining (in German) when pinged. The game was lost by time ticking down on points, when he chased the sole remaining enemy Weser with help of our Mainz and my spotting down to half HP. The game was a constant uphill battle and at every point, the enemy had the advantage because our team was dying left and right. Luckily the enemy BBs were on the same medication as our Tirpitz and for some reason did not push, so they got slowly grinded down. Weser survived with 50%, our Tirpitz was still untouched and T6 ended up on top.

 

Second game was yet another T8 and despite the enemy DDs yolopushing the middle on Two Brothers, we ultimately lost the game again on time and points ticking due to absolute incompetence of toptiers. To summarize, they had a full HP Nagato and N.C. in the lategame in which my buddy sacrificed his New Mexico for the grather ramming good while we torched the Nagato down and the enemy won by having a 100HP Kidd somewhere on the map. Oh, forgot to mention we had a nearly full HP Akizuki.

 

After that, we switched to T8 and even tho my friend died pretty early during a bad trade in his Baltimore, the game kept going and I nearly did 200k in my GZ, going down to a salvo of a Vermont, halfway across the map. The point is, we had a Slava, Musashi and Shimakaze, all quite healthy left, but were ticking on time and points yet again, while the enemy Cleveland and 50% Shokaku were on the run. So I kept them spotted for my remaining two minutes of flight time and during this our survivors with their big ships actually managed to hit the Cleveland - like once for 5k. She was on 200HP after our Shima kept spotting and our BBs kept missing. The Musashi was like 10km away, Slava more like 20km. This show of pure incompetence took over 5 minutes, then we lost.

 

Nothing about those games was enjoyable, they were pure uphill games, constant compensating for others and being denied the sweet reward of victory due to the incompetence of others, even tho we managed to turn the tide. Yeah, you get a lot of XP and credits, but they are nothing in comparison to the mental gymnastics of others you have to forcefully endure, just because you were graced with their presence for 20 minutes of your lifetime.

 

/rant

[Matty814]

Wasn't there a mode in World of Tanks where each team had 'X' number of points to spends on tanks depending on tier and class? Team numbers did not have to match and afaik there was not a limit on number of each class? Something like that could be fun but may have to limit numbers of capital ships for it to work in WoWs.

[WorthyOpponent]

5 minutes ago, Matty814 said:

Wasn't there a mode in World of Tanks where each team had 'X' number of points to spends on tanks depending on tier and class? Team numbers did not have to match and afaik there was not a limit on number of each class? Something like that could be fun but may have to limit numbers of capital ships for it to work in WoWs.

There was a tournament that did that. Warship Masters Invitational. It was nice to watch. 

 

[Matty814]

Just now, WorthyOpponent said:

There was a tournament that did that. Warship Masters Invitational. It was nice to watch. 

 

In tanks I'm sure the game mode was called 'Company' or 'Companies' I think it would be fun but I guess it wouldn't be that fun for random groups to come up against a full Clan team so they might have to limit the amount of same clan players or something at which point it starts to get a bit odd.

[Matty814]

1 minute ago, WorthyOpponent said:

There was a tournament that did that. Warship Masters Invitational. It was nice to watch. 

 

In tanks I'm sure the game mode was called 'Company' or 'Companies' I think it would be fun but I guess it wouldn't be that fun for random groups to come up against a full Clan team so they might have to limit the amount of same clan players or something at which point it starts to get a bit odd.

 

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Game_Modes#Tank_Company_Battle

 

That was it

[Yedwy]

@OP We had Team Battles long ago, IIRC they went away because of low populatity compared to "regular" battle types, this is pretty much the same thing and since CB get increasing number of mercs each season it would be much better to just make Clan Brawl a permanent mode and allow the div leader to pick more mercs...

[steel_anvil]

29 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

Hello,

Thank you for your suggestion.

Unfortunately we mentioned several times, that we are currently not planning any skill-based MM, so even your suggestion most likely won't be considered.

But we can talk about your suggestion here.

So in your example, everybody would pick how the battle should look like as ship distribution, also considering higher and lower tiers and than MM would distribute players from the queue how exactly?

Ok, there are most likely smarter folks than me to suggest this but..

 

Consider again the schoolyard, lets pick football, you have your defense, middle, offensive players, the two best players now pick their team from the team of friends and distribute the team that way, trying to get the best offence, middle field and defense. A smart team captain, realizing the other team has the best offense, might then pick the best defense.

 

so for world of warships.

 

Pick a pool players.

 

0-2 CV's for each team

a pool of BB's lets say 3-4

a pool of Cruisers, lets say 3-4

a pool of dd's, lets say 3-4

 

Now for each team there should be roughly as many cv's, bb's, cruisers, and dd's.

 

For each pool of ships, start with CV's.

 

Pick the best player for team 1, second best for team 2 untill the pool is empty.

 

Now goto bb pool

 

Pick the best player for team 2, second best for team 1.

 

and so on.

 

there could be many other ways of doing it.

 

[steel_anvil]

32 minutes ago, Vbeest said:

 

The battles are already matched, just not in the way you would like to. Google WG patented matchmaking.

 

Also, apparently this is really good for business. We had a topic not hat long time ago, where a guy complained that "battles in WoWs are often undecided, while in WoT it is apparent from the very beginning which team will win" and he stated he prefers the latter...

 

Long story short, it will rather get worse not better with time (worse for you, better for WG).

 

I dont really mind the matching, its ok, I enjoy the game just fine. I just not focusing one sided on the win, but more if the game as a whole was fun, and if ships on one team just vanish within a few minutes, cause they yolo in or show broadsides or dont dodge torps, well i guess thats just how I see it.

[YabbaCoe]

Před 50 minutami steel_anvil řekl/a:

Ok, there are most likely smarter folks than me to suggest this but..

 

Consider again the schoolyard, lets pick football, you have your defense, middle, offensive players, the two best players now pick their team from the team of friends and distribute the team that way, trying to get the best offence, middle field and defense. A smart team captain, realizing the other team has the best offense, might then pick the best defense.

 

so for world of warships.

 

Pick a pool players.

 

0-2 CV's for each team

a pool of BB's lets say 3-4

a pool of Cruisers, lets say 3-4

a pool of dd's, lets say 3-4

 

Now for each team there should be roughly as many cv's, bb's, cruisers, and dd's.

 

For each pool of ships, start with CV's.

 

Pick the best player for team 1, second best for team 2 untill the pool is empty.

 

Now goto bb pool

 

Pick the best player for team 2, second best for team 1.

 

and so on.

 

there could be many other ways of doing it.

 

I see,

Thank you for the further explanation on your idea.

So first the battle formation would be chosen and after that from the pool of players in queue they will be selected to teams regarding their class they have and skill.

Would those battle be only same tier, or is you idea considering +/- 2 tiers?

What if there would be just one very skilled player, but other lower skilled?

One team chose first all the time, or how it is decided who pick first for each class?

What about divisions?

 

And still which criteria should be chosen to determine the skill of each player? Overal WR? WR with selected ship?

 

Sorry to bombard you with questions, but those are the classic ones trying to have the overal idea of that suggestion.

[steel_anvil]

9 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

I see,

Thank you for the further explanation on your idea.

So first the battle formation would be chosen and after that from the pool of players in queue they will be selected to teams regarding their class they have and skill.

Would those battle be only same tier, or is you idea considering +/- 2 tiers?

What if there would be just one very skilled player, but other lower skilled?

One team chose first all the time, or how it is decided who pick first for each class?

What about divisions?

 

And still which criteria should be chosen to determine the skill of each player? Overal WR? WR with selected ship?

 

Sorry to bombard you with questions, but those are the classic ones trying to have the overal idea of that suggestion.

ok, no thats fine, im not the greatest game designer, but I can give it a shot.

 

I dont see why tiers could not work, they could put a weight on your "skill" level, lets say 1 tier down could multiply your skill level by 0,9 or whatever.

 

Yes, naturally, you could get just one skilled player, so all battles would not be perfectly distributed, and that would most probably be ok.

 

Well in the schoolyard you could imagine flipping a coin as to who choses first, so you could randomly determine who goes first.

 

Divisions are a bit tricker, as you could get a great player division and a mediocre one in the same pool of ships, and you cannot break up divisions between teams. However, you could calculate the combined skillset of a division and calculate that as one pick.

 

Criteria, could be anything really, or several factors multiplied together, WR*WR with ship*damage pr. battle. 

 

Thanks for posting the question.

[DFens_666]

3 hours ago, steel_anvil said:

True, i dont propose to changed random battles, but to introduce a new type of battle.

 

Ranked battles should be what you are asking for. Sadly, thats not how WG sees it. Making an extra gamemode probably wont work, because the playerbase isnt that big, so i doubt this could work as a permanent thing. But WG could have made ranked in a way, that the league you play in is determined by your skill, so that good and bad players are seperated from one another.

[steel_anvil]

1 minute ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Ranked battles should be what you are asking for. Sadly, thats not how WG sees it. Making an extra gamemode probably wont work, because the playerbase isnt that big, so i doubt this could work as a permanent thing. But WG could have made ranked in a way, that the league you play in is determined by your skill, so that good and bad players are seperated from one another.

Could just be an event, and see what happens.

[YabbaCoe]

Před 29 minutami steel_anvil řekl/a:

ok, no thats fine, im not the greatest game designer, but I can give it a shot.

 

I dont see why tiers could not work, they could put a weight on your "skill" level, lets say 1 tier down could multiply your skill level by 0,9 or whatever.

 

Yes, naturally, you could get just one skilled player, so all battles would not be perfectly distributed, and that would most probably be ok.

 

Well in the schoolyard you could imagine flipping a coin as to who choses first, so you could randomly determine who goes first.

 

Divisions are a bit tricker, as you could get a great player division and a mediocre one in the same pool of ships, and you cannot break up divisions between teams. However, you could calculate the combined skillset of a division and calculate that as one pick.

 

Criteria, could be anything really, or several factors multiplied together, WR*WR with ship*damage pr. battle. 

 

Thanks for posting the question.

Coinflip sounds "fair", but it still can create very unequal situations:

Just imagine team A wins the coinflip and get the best BB player, tier VIII for example... team B gets the second one according to certain skill, but he is in tier VI ship. Like this team A will get always better players, who can even be in higher tier ships. If you would multiply lower tier by 0.9, in this case you would definitely need to have some coeficient number to understand the skill of those players.

Divisions are usually making a bit mess in all of those calculations. What if you have only 2 divisions in this particular queue? One full of superunicum players and one very low skilled players - your MM would need to compensate other players to second team, basically assigning only "tomatoes" to this superunicum division, who definitely won't be happy about that.

 

Criteria WR helps, but WR with the ship, what if you have brand new ship, or ship with 100%WR as you played only 1 battle with that? Damage per battle in overal? That can be improved significantly, just playing high tier BBs, where you have usually higher amount of damage dealt, while for example for DDs, damage done is not saying much how well they played. Having average damage per battle as a criteria would force players to only farm damage, not to focus on other tasks.