Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 50 battles to post in this section.
bloodynicknames

Italian Cruisers, nothing more than boring damage farmers ?

22 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Players
472 posts
12,991 battles

OK OK, first of all, I get it, camping and just farming damage is the way WG wants this game to go, because, you know, it's potato friendly. 

But still, I recently started grinding the Italian Cruiser Line and so far, while they do perform well in killing stuff they just feel utterly bland and I never had the feeling the ship(i'm up to T8 now) has the capability to actually make an impact. 

 

I cant really hunt DDs due to lack of Hydro(or radar for that matter) and the somewhat horrible concealment. 
Sure, if a DD is spotted within range he takes massive damage thanks to SAP but at the end of the day you have to rely on someone on your team to do the spotting for you(relying on your team, good one, right?) 

Unlike lets say the US or Soviet Cruiser you cannot just "deny" caps by your sheer presence. 

Going toe to toe with a BB ? At least at T8 that isnt much of an option, SAP is too situational I feel and the AP isnt that strong(yet?). Sure if you get close the AP hurts but with a concealment north of 11km good luck doing that. You can rush thanks to good armor scheme on the bow on the Amalfi for example and you'll get away with it due to speed and manueverability but i'd rather not rely on yoloing stuff. 

 

Those are just a couple examples. 

but what bugs me most about them is how incredibly BORING they are to play. I play cruisers, a lot. My favorite are the lighter ones, Wooster, Mino and I do enjoy the DM at times. Hindenburg thanks to Captain Skill rework is nothing more than an annoying fire spammer so I stay away from her. Zao is OK but in this meta I dont really like her. 
That being said, all of those have unique characteristics that actually make them fun to play. Zao has some Ambush potential, Hindenburg used to be the swiss army knife of Cruisers, Mino with radar is a DDs nightmare, etc. etc. All these other boats I felt gave you options whereas with the Italian ones it always comes down driving around medium distance spamming SAP and occcasionaly switching to HE, thats it. 

 

So enlighten me, does it get better ? Am I missing something ? Cause if the Venezia is gonna be the same with more barrels I'd rather save myself the Headache of the Grind. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[JRM]
[JRM]
Players
8,260 posts

Dude if you want to farm damage its better to take a HE armed line, ANY he armed line... Fires will do damage even after the surface of the target is saturated so IJN or French lines for instance are much better for that, the italian line is kinda "kiting DD supporter" line made primarily to take out the enemy DD in few salvos while its being spotted by radar or friendly DD and when the DD force is cleared you can farm some long range damage on more sluggish enemy ships but again if you want to go for pure damage HE armed cruisers are MUCH better at that...

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CHEFT]
Players
12,666 posts
9,841 battles

Well, id say that most CAs are like that actually. Germans, Japanese, French, UK and Italians have mostly the firepower to influence the game. And then they basicly have a gimmick or 2 which makes them different

IJN longrange torps

French speed + reloadboost

Italians SAP + fuelsmoke

UK CA HE pen + zombie heal

Germans HE pen/AP alpha + closerange citadel protection.

 

None of them can really do anything against DDs, with Henri actually being the only exception because it can catch DDs with its speed. With italians, you can use the smoke to go closer for DD support and smoke yourself out after doing that. But in the end, they are just mid-longrange SAP spammers. You wont be using AP unless you get a cruiser broadside so you can citadel it. But you have to consider, that SAP is a stronger ammo than HE+Fires. Most Cruisers will actually deal less damage despite fires, which are 100% healable. SAP is just like the HE alpha, which can be healed to 50%, so their damage is worth more than HE from other Cruisers. In a sense, Venezia is the same as the others, just stronger.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
472 posts
12,991 battles
8 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Dude if you want to farm damage its better to take a HE armed line, ANY he armed line... Fires will do damage even after the surface of the target is saturated so IJN or French lines for instance are much better for that, the italian line is kinda "kiting DD supporter" line made primarily to take out the enemy DD in few salvos while its being spotted by radar or friendly DD and when the DD force is cleared you can farm some long range damage on more sluggish enemy ships but again if you want to go for pure damage HE armed cruisers are MUCH better at that...

You kinda missed the point there. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
472 posts
12,991 battles
7 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Well, id say that most CAs are like that actually. Germans, Japanese, French, UK and Italians have mostly the firepower to influence the game. And then they basicly have a gimmick or 2 which makes them different

IJN longrange torps

French speed + reloadboost

Italians SAP + fuelsmoke

UK CA HE pen + zombie heal

Germans HE pen/AP alpha + closerange citadel protection.

 

None of them can really do anything against DDs, with Henri actually being the only exception because it can catch DDs with its speed. With italians, you can use the smoke to go closer for DD support and smoke yourself out after doing that. But in the end, they are just mid-longrange SAP spammers. You wont be using AP unless you get a cruiser broadside so you can citadel it. But you have to consider, that SAP is a stronger ammo than HE+Fires. Most Cruisers will actually deal less damage despite fires, which are 100% healable. SAP is just like the HE alpha, which can be healed to 50%, so their damage is worth more than HE from other Cruisers. In a sense, Venezia is the same as the others, just stronger.

well, the DM at least with its high ROF and radar that's basically just 900m(or was it 600m?) short of its own concealment does work against DDs at least. 
I tried the french and I dunno, at least in the lower tiers they felt like nothing I could see myself playing so abandoned that. Also, seeing how most Henris play thats not my kind of gameplay. 
Maybe it just comes down to individual playstyle, I do exceptionally well in the ARP Takao/Atago and every game feels like fun and as if I had a number of possibilites(even with its AP you can do decent damage to broadside BBs) whereas with the Amalfi in comparison every game feels like its the same over and over again. 
so yeah, I guess in the end Pizza cruisers arent for me. 
what bothers me most is what they did with the Hindenburg in the commander rework, it really is just an HE spammer now

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[-TPF-]
Players
4,955 posts
20,235 battles
1 minute ago, bloodynicknames said:

what bothers me most is what they did with the Hindenburg in the commander rework, it really is just an HE spammer now

Making a role for the Dutch cruisers, maybe? They look quite promising. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SWN]
Players
233 posts
9,033 battles

I don't really agree.

I'm playing the italian line as well at the moment.

They are fast and manouverable and not so much island huggers. You can effectively dodge incoming long range AP with this. 

You have to have map awereness with these ships and know when to engage or when to disengage. They are for exploiting weaknesses and useing opportunities.

The smoke consumeable is really helpfull in that, you move in, kill the target and disengage with smoke. 

And the T7 and T8 have fast reloading long range torps. keep throwning them out whenever you can (dont hit your allies!) 

Not haveing a hydro means you need to look for opportunities to get the jump on them, rely on others (CV, DDs whatever) to spot the enemy DD and annihilate them with SAP. 

The Italian cruisers are excellent at kill securing. 

 

So I think the Italian cruisers have a very distinct flavour and I found for instance the Zara a very strong ship (And I don't find many T7 ships to be strong since the usualy bad (T9) MM you get at T7.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CR33D]
[CR33D]
Players
3,397 posts
31,662 battles
6 minutes ago, bloodynicknames said:

what bothers me most is what they did with the Hindenburg in the commander rework, it really is just an HE spammer now

 

What they did with Hindy?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[JRM]
[JRM]
Players
8,260 posts
16 minutes ago, bloodynicknames said:

You kinda missed the point there. 

I dont think so, your title sais how you see the RM CAs and I say if its that you see in them you should just grind another line couse for THAT role there are better ships and if you want to influence the outcome of matches by making decisive plays it pretty much means take something with radar...

 

Any yes Venezia is just the same as all the others just more barrels

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CHEFT]
Players
12,666 posts
9,841 battles
4 minutes ago, bloodynicknames said:

the DM at least with its high ROF and radar that's basically just 900m(or was it 600m?) short of its own concealment does work against DDs at least. 

 

Ofc the ones carrying radar are exempt from that, because of the radar. So they have a weapon against DDs, same as the russians. But the CA lines without radar? They always rely on something else to spot the DD (exception Henri).

 

6 minutes ago, bloodynicknames said:

(even with its AP you can do decent damage to broadside BBs)

 

Well, the SAP just deals more damage against everything, maybe thats why you feel its boring? Only using one ammo, which is superior like 95%of the time.

 

8 minutes ago, bloodynicknames said:

so yeah, I guess in the end Pizza cruisers arent for me. 

 

If they arent fun to you, then why bother. Its not like you desperately need them. But its kinda fun to smack DDs/BBs for 10-15k damage with one salvo :cap_rambo:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
472 posts
12,991 battles
12 minutes ago, Asatori said:

I don't really agree.

I'm playing the italian line as well at the moment.

They are fast and manouverable and not so much island huggers. You can effectively dodge incoming long range AP with this. 

You have to have map awereness with these ships and know when to engage or when to disengage. They are for exploiting weaknesses and useing opportunities.

The smoke consumeable is really helpfull in that, you move in, kill the target and disengage with smoke. 

And the T7 and T8 have fast reloading long range torps. keep throwning them out whenever you can (dont hit your allies!) 

Not haveing a hydro means you need to look for opportunities to get the jump on them, rely on others (CV, DDs whatever) to spot the enemy DD and annihilate them with SAP. 

The Italian cruisers are excellent at kill securing. 

 

So I think the Italian cruisers have a very distinct flavour and I found for instance the Zara a very strong ship (And I don't find many T7 ships to be strong since the usualy bad (T9) MM you get at T7.

 

dont get me wrong, I did well in all of them including the Amalfi, i just find them incredibly boring. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[JRM]
[JRM]
Players
8,260 posts
7 minutes ago, bloodynicknames said:

i just find them incredibly boring. 

Why play them then? Unless you just really want to round up your T10 collection its a waste of your time...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[-HUN-]
[-HUN-]
Players
1,827 posts
12,208 battles
8 minutes ago, bloodynicknames said:

 

dont get me wrong, I did well in all of them including the Amalfi, i just find them incredibly boring. 

From t8 they are good and enjoyable for me.

Do you know what is boring? US BBs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
472 posts
12,991 battles
4 minutes ago, Humorpalanta said:

From t8 they are good and enjoyable for me.

Do you know what is boring? US BBs.

depends I guess. Montana is OK now, i havent tried the other line but from what i've seen so far the "fat" ones just sit there at the back and camp, exactly like WG intended. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CATS]
Players
32,536 posts
16,293 battles
58 minutes ago, bloodynicknames said:

I cant really hunt DDs due to lack of Hydro(or radar for that matter) and the somewhat horrible concealment. 

Sure, if a DD is spotted within range he takes massive damage thanks to SAP but at the end of the day you have to rely on someone on your team to do the spotting for you(relying on your team, good one, right?)

There was a time before radar and cruisers managed to sink DD back then.

 

The advantage of the RM CA is that they can get close and support the friendly DD better as their smoke allows them to get out of a bad situation.

And good DD player on the enemy team will notice you around the cap and play more careful, as they know what will happen if they are careless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[THESO]
Beta Tester, Players, In AlfaTesters
4,406 posts
11,462 battles
1 hour ago, bloodynicknames said:

I cant really hunt DDs due to lack of Hydro(or radar for that matter) and the somewhat horrible concealment. 

Who hunts DDs with a hydro? In cruisers I mean. Though, considering how fast italians are, they can hunt DDs quite well.

 

1 hour ago, bloodynicknames said:

Going toe to toe with a BB ? At least at T8 that isnt much of an option, SAP is too situational I feel and the AP isnt that strong(yet?). Sure if you get close the AP hurts but with a concealment north of 11km good luck doing that. You can rush thanks to good armor scheme on the bow on the Amalfi for example and you'll get away with it due to speed and manueverability but i'd rather not rely on yoloing stuff.  

Tier 9 and 10 are really good at doing that. Doing 10k every salvo to BBs is amazing.

 

1 hour ago, bloodynicknames said:

what bugs me most about them is how incredibly BORING they are to play. I play cruisers, a lot. My favorite are the lighter ones, Wooster, Mino and I do enjoy the DM at times. Hindenburg thanks to Captain Skill rework is nothing more than an annoying fire spammer so I stay away from her. Zao is OK but in this meta I dont really like her. 

I play venezia the same way I play zao (at least at the start of the match). Long range at the start, where I do massive damage to everything that moves while dodging any return fire and later on I move to medium range and ambush stuff with smoke. It's an amazing line from tier 8 onwards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
472 posts
12,991 battles
1 minute ago, ColonelPete said:

There was a time before radar and cruisers managed to sink DD back then.

 

The advantage of the RM CA is that they can get close and support the friendly DD better as their smoke allows them to get out of a bad situation.

And good DD player on the enemy team will notice you around the cap and play more careful, as they know what will happen if they are careless.

 

"There was a time before radar and cruisers managed to sink DD back then but the meta was entirely different from today" is how that sentence should go. 

The thing is, back then you would just rush the smoke with hydro and hope for the best. And thanks to the absence of the likes of petro and deadeye that worked. 
But, as much as I hate to say it, they put radar in for a reason as that went hand in hand with the changes to the meta. Shima was dominant back then for a good reason(and I played her a fair bit during that time). 
These days things are different. And I've yet to see a Venezia anywhere near a cap before mid-game as its plain suicidal to go there with its concealment. What I see mostly at T10 is them hogging a flank and getting off one or two salvos before disengaging. 
but again, this is just from my pov, I think i'll just give 'em up on the Italians, they looked like a nice change of pace but in the end they're a lot worse(in terms of fun) than what I have at the moment. 
Guess this is where this game is headed ultimately and I cant say I like it. The versatile ships get powercrept and what you end up with is crap that ultimately all plays the same. 


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CATS]
Players
32,536 posts
16,293 battles
26 minutes ago, bloodynicknames said:

 

"There was a time before radar and cruisers managed to sink DD back then but the meta was entirely different from today" is how that sentence should go. 

The thing is, back then you would just rush the smoke with hydro and hope for the best.

Nope. That rarely worked back then. You have to remove his teammates first.

27 minutes ago, bloodynicknames said:

Shima was dominant back then for a good reason(and I played her a fair bit during that time).

Shima was never dominant, just annoying.

Spoiler

image.png.afe7ec43fc608d85dcc8d4dd16864d54.png

 

29 minutes ago, bloodynicknames said:

And I've yet to see a Venezia anywhere near a cap before mid-game as its plain suicidal to go there with its concealment.

And I have seen that often enough. And thx to the smoke it works.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,972 posts
5,228 battles
2 hours ago, bloodynicknames said:

the Italian Cruiser Line

cant really hunt DDs

1383583892_Goon.JPG.72e98c03a53b496a753c11f61e6f466f.JPG

 

On a more serious note, most cruisers are damage farmers, it is the DPM class.

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[VIBES]
Players
1,249 posts
23,065 battles
1 hour ago, bloodynicknames said:

dont get me wrong, I did well in all of them including the Amalfi, i just find them incredibly boring. 

There'sè something like 30-35 tech tree lines in this game, at least from T8 onward, so plenty of options.

Imho it's nice to have some "boring" lines among the rest, in case one is looking for a more relaxing experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[ZEN]
Players
1,480 posts
15,650 battles
5 hours ago, bloodynicknames said:

OK OK, first of all, I get it, camping and just farming damage is the way WG wants this game to go, because, you know, it's potato friendly. 

But still, I recently started grinding the Italian Cruiser Line and so far, while they do perform well in killing stuff they just feel utterly bland and I never had the feeling the ship(i'm up to T8 now) has the capability to actually make an impact. 

 

I cant really hunt DDs due to lack of Hydro(or radar for that matter) and the somewhat horrible concealment. 
Sure, if a DD is spotted within range he takes massive damage thanks to SAP but at the end of the day you have to rely on someone on your team to do the spotting for you(relying on your team, good one, right?) 

Unlike lets say the US or Soviet Cruiser you cannot just "deny" caps by your sheer presence. 

Going toe to toe with a BB ? At least at T8 that isnt much of an option, SAP is too situational I feel and the AP isnt that strong(yet?). Sure if you get close the AP hurts but with a concealment north of 11km good luck doing that. You can rush thanks to good armor scheme on the bow on the Amalfi for example and you'll get away with it due to speed and manueverability but i'd rather not rely on yoloing stuff. 

 

Those are just a couple examples. 

but what bugs me most about them is how incredibly BORING they are to play. I play cruisers, a lot. My favorite are the lighter ones, Wooster, Mino and I do enjoy the DM at times. Hindenburg thanks to Captain Skill rework is nothing more than an annoying fire spammer so I stay away from her. Zao is OK but in this meta I dont really like her. 
That being said, all of those have unique characteristics that actually make them fun to play. Zao has some Ambush potential, Hindenburg used to be the swiss army knife of Cruisers, Mino with radar is a DDs nightmare, etc. etc. All these other boats I felt gave you options whereas with the Italian ones it always comes down driving around medium distance spamming SAP and occcasionaly switching to HE, thats it. 

 

So enlighten me, does it get better ? Am I missing something ? Cause if the Venezia is gonna be the same with more barrels I'd rather save myself the Headache of the Grind. 

You are pretty much spot on with your assessment, only thing I can add is that at T8 the SAP becomes more reliable and usable, though a perfectly bow in target will still cause your damage to drop to 0 unless near max range, and the T10 Venezia is not a floating citadel like the ships from T6-9 because it has spaced armour. Long range SAP spammers where the only situation you will switch to AP is when there is a broadside cruiser around 10km from you, then you can punish it with a load of citadels in 1 salvo. The underlying issues with the line are; SAP is a terribly designed gimmick and is 100% detrimental to the game having what is essentially a HE shell with a higher alpha than the AP is flawed from the start as it makes ammo choice essentially void (All other cruisers except the RNCLs have at least some reason to use both ammunition types even a Worcester using AP has it's uses), secondly the ships give up far too much for the SAP and the exhaust smokes (namely having almost BB reload and having none of the Cruiser Utility tools like Hydro that can help with ambushing DDs in smoke and screening for torps, especially as cruisers can no longer pick Vigilance commander skill), lastly the smoke itself is poorly designed as it is too powerful, but at the same time so limited that you kind of want to not use them unless 100% necessary (TBH they would have been better having a 10s duration with more charges, so they are entirely a disengagement tool instead).

 

Venezia is basically the only good ship in the line and is a pain to fight unless you have no other ships to worry about as you can invalidate almost all his damage except for torps, unless he opens up the range. TBH the only fun Italian cruiser for me to play is the T6 Duca D'Aosta as it has all the normal cruiser tools, spaced armour that is decent for the tier probably the best in agility at the tier and HE + AP on fast firing guns where there is a good incentive to use hit and run tactics supporting your DDs then disengaging, but unfortunately WG for the Tech tree had to reach into their Box'O Gimmicks and ruin them. The SAP gimmick is also what has made the Italian BBs unfun to play as there is little difference in damage on what ammunition you use and it all depends on where your shells go which is 100% reliant on RNG and it makes it very difficult to turn around games in it... In fact in the Veneto yesterday I was jealous of a Gneisenau cause it had accurate reliable guns...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[RONIN]
[RONIN]
Players
773 posts
5,785 battles

I did not enjoy italian cruisers from tier 1 to 9, but Venezia is amazing and fun,strong, hitting hard, fun to play,it was worth the grind for her. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×