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EwoudK

Dutch cruisers historical inaccuracies

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Hello everyone. Here I have collected all the historical inaccuracies I could find on the Dutch cruiser branch as shown by Wargaming. Several inaccuracies are the results of game balancing and ship-upgrades so I put them in cursive. The remaining inaccuracies I have labelled as ‘Unhistorical’ and I would like to see them changed before the Dutch cruisers are released. In the end I will explain my reasons for the most prominent inaccuracies.

 

Tier 1. Van Kinsbergen:

-        Reload speed for the 120 guns should be 6 seconds instead of 6.8 (Game balance)

 

Tier 2. Gelderland:

-        75mm guns should be part of the AA and secondary suite (Hull upgrade)

 

Tier 3. Java:

-        Top speed should be 31 knots instead of 33 knots (Unhistorical)

-        Should have a Fokker C.XI-W floatplane (Game balance)

-        AA-suite should contain Bofors 40mm and extra 12.7mm guns (Hull upgrade)

 

Tier 4. De Ruyter:

-        Maximum reload time should be 10 seconds instead of 8 (Game balance)

-        Main battery should be (very mediocre) heavy AA with 60-degrees elevation (Game balance)

-        Numbers of all AA-guns should be doubled (Hull upgrade)

 

Tier 5. Celebes:

-        Maximum speed should be 31 knots or higher (Engine upgrade)

-        Dutch navy never used 25mm AA-guns (Unhistorical)

 

Tier 6. Kijkduin:

-        Main battery should have 8x2 150mm guns, not 152mm (Unhistorical)

-        Maximum reload time should be 10 seconds instead of 7 (Game balance)

-        Main battery should be (very mediocre) heavy AA with 60-degrees elevation (Game balance)

-        Maximum speed should be 32 knots instead of 33 knots (Unhistorical)

-        AA-suite should have a maximum 12x1 40mm Bofors, not 14x2 40mm (Hypothetical hull upgrade + game balance)

-        (Stock) AA-suite should contain 8x1 12.7mm guns (Unhistorical)

-        2x3 533mm torpedo tubes should be carried on the sides (Unhistorical)

 

Tier 7. Eendracht:

-        Main battery should have 10x150mm guns, not 152mm (Unhistorical)

-        Maximum reload time should be 10 seconds instead of 7 (Game balance)

-        Main battery should be (very mediocre) heavy AA with 60-degrees elevation (Game balance)

-        Maximum speed should be 32 knots instead of 33 knots (Unhistorical)

-        AA-suite should have a maximum of 12x1 40mm Bofors, not 17x2 40mm (Hypothetical hull upgrade + game balance)

-        (Stock) AA-suite should contain 8x1 12.7mm guns (Unhistorical)

-        2x3 533mm torpedo tubes should be carried on the sides (Unhistorical)

 

Tier 9. Johan de Witt:

-        Main battery should have a calibre of 238mm instead of 240mm (Unhistorical)

 

Tier 10. Gouden Leeuw:

-        Maximum speed should be 34 knots instead of 33.5 knots (Unhistorical)

-        Should have a floatplane (Game balance)

-        AA-suite should contain A: 7x2 40mm, B: 7x2 40mm + 10x2 12.7mm, C: 7x2 40mm + 8x1 20mm or D: 8x2 40mm + 8x2 12.7mm instead of 12x1 40mm (Unhistorical)

 

Most points should be self-explanatory but here I explain some of the more unclear ones:

While Celebes was a real design that was supposed to be built, historical information on it is hard to find. However, since it would have operated as a flagship for the Java-class it likely would have had a top speed equal or superior to them. 25mm guns were never used by the Dutch, not even on the Java-class, so Celebes most likely also would never have had them.  

 

Kijkduin and Eendracht were under construction when Germany invaded the Netherlands. Their armament was supposed to be 150mm guns from Sweden. During the war Sweden confiscated these guns, bored them out to 152mm and used them on their Tre Kronor class. When the Dutch finished their ships (as seen in the Zeven Provinciën) they used the newer 152mm-version of their previously intended guns. However, Kijkduin and Eendracht should still carry the pre-war 150mm guns.

 

The tier 9 Johan de Witt is based on a 16.000 tonnes armoured cruiser design with 24cm guns. These guns would have been ordered from Germany and actually be 238mm in diameter, just like several WW2 and WW1 German army and naval guns that were classified as 24cm but actually were 238mm in diameter. While close to being historical, this ship is essentially a fake ship based on real Dutch armoured cruiser and battlecruiser designs, therefore it cannot be directly compared to a real design and no other historical inaccuracies can be addressed.

 

Tier 10 Gouden Leeuw is the project 1047 battlecruiser. This ship was designed with a top speed of 34 knots normally or 33 knots in tropical waters (due to a loss of boiler pressure in hot climates). Its speed is a compromise between these two figures and is fine, but the maximum speed should technically have been 0.5 knots higher. The battlecruiser had several AA-suites proposed, but the one on Gouden Leeuw is unhistorical and should be changed.

 

Just like the battlecruiser, the top speeds of Kijkduin and Eendracht could be explained by 32 knots being in tropical waters and the 33 knots being the regular top speed, but I have not found any proof for this. The same holds true for Java but there it is even more unlikely as the ships was actually built in its original configuration.

 

The tier 8 Haarlem appears to be a complete unhistorical fabrication by Wargaming, although A-class cruisers with 20cm guns were considered by the Dutch I have not found any indication of such a ship actually having been designed. So, there is a historical basis for its existence, but not for the exact design itself.

 

Feel free to discuss any point I have made or point out things I have missed. 

 

Sources:

https://netherlandsnavy.nl/

http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNNeth_Main.php

https://openlibrary.org/works/OL4209584W/De_strijd_om_de_slagkruisers_1938-1940

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Its WG. What do you expect?? 

Also for the sake of a game the torps atleast can be ignored coz its kind of weird to have two torps ships in the middle of the line, and all gun ships before or after it, just like Moskva, and Just like Omaha, Pheonix

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7 minutes ago, totally_potato said:

Its WG. What do you expect?? 

Also for the sake of a game the torps atleast can be ignored coz its kind of weird to have two torps ships in the middle of the line, and all gun ships before or after it, just like Moskva, and Just like Omaha, Pheonix

WG really did not do a bad job on these cruisers, most points are fairly minor and easily addressed. Just because most ships in a line do not have torpedoes does not mean that all of them should not have torpedoes, especially when those two cruisers were constructed with them. Its historically accurate and its not like the ships would be overpowered with torpedoes. They are really not out of place, especially when you consider the Dutch will get Tromp, another cruiser with torpedoes, as a premium ship. 

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Aight, I has been summoned.

On 4/16/2021 at 10:18 AM, EwoudK said:

Tier 3. Java:

-        Top speed should be 31 knots instead of 33 knots (Unhistorical)

-        Should have a Fokker C.XI-W floatplane (Game balance)

-        AA-suite should contain Bofors 40mm and extra 12.7mm guns (Hull upgrade)

Everything above is correct, but some stuff has been missed.

Java shouldn't have machine guns in the hull state of the devblog image. Machine guns were added on the wings above where the AA cannons were placed. Those AA cannons had subsequently be replaced with salutation guns. The pressence of 75mm-calibre AA guns and a lack of wings in the image means she shouldn't have those machine guns.
Sources: NL-HaNA_4.MST_3529, contemporary Marineblad or Ingenieur article about her refit
 

On 4/16/2021 at 10:18 AM, EwoudK said:

Tier 5. Celebes:

-        Maximum speed should be 31 knots or higher (Engine upgrade)

-        Dutch navy never used 25mm AA-guns (Unhistorical) 

Celebes is actually fake al together. Though there have been images of twin turreted Java-classes they seem to be a fictional image propogated in east-bloc media. The situation around the AA was fishy and refitting a ship with barbettes is a massive undertaking. Nor did the surrounding text make any sense. As such, I forwarded a question to WG to check if they did bad historical research. Instead I was effectively told they did no research at all. I should be frustrated but I'm glad they failed to fail.

 

Spoiler

image0.thumb.jpg.6fd8164f99c282812305160b3725b4dc.jpg

 

On 4/16/2021 at 10:18 AM, EwoudK said:

Tier 6. Kijkduin:

-        Main battery should have 8x2 150mm guns, not 152mm (Unhistorical)

-        Maximum reload time should be 10 seconds instead of 7 (Game balance)

-        Main battery should be (very mediocre) heavy AA with 60-degrees elevation (Game balance)

-        Maximum speed should be 32 knots instead of 33 knots (Unhistorical) 

-        AA-suite should have a maximum 12x1 40mm Bofors, not 14x2 40mm (Hypothetical hull upgrade + game balance)

-        (Stock) AA-suite should contain 8x1 12.7mm guns (Unhistorical)

-        2x3 533mm torpedo tubes should be carried on the sides (Unhistorical) 

 

Tier 7. Eendracht:

-        Main battery should have 10x150mm guns, not 152mm (Unhistorical)

-        Maximum reload time should be 10 seconds instead of 7 (Game balance)

-        Main battery should be (very mediocre) heavy AA with 60-degrees elevation (Game balance)

-        Maximum speed should be 32 knots instead of 33 knots (Unhistorical)

-        AA-suite should have a maximum of 12x1 40mm Bofors, not 17x2 40mm (Hypothetical hull upgrade + game balance)

-        (Stock) AA-suite should contain 8x1 12.7mm guns (Unhistorical)

-        2x3 533mm torpedo tubes should be carried on the sides (Unhistorical)

 

Sources differ on the maximum speed. Although most of them state 32 knots, there is a blueprint that clearly states 33 knots.
The Bofors mounts were all doubles, not singles.
Source: NL-HaNA 4.Mst 3314

Some tangents.
Though there are blueprints of Kijkduin with 8x2 guns, they seem to come from an earlier stage with slightly different superstructure. Without a source confirming either came earlier or both at the same time I cannot conclusively condemn the 8x2 gun layout - and even so, game balance might prioritise otherwise.
NL-HaNA_4.MST_3314 indicates the machine guns weren't 8x1 12,7mm but 4x2 12,7mm. Since the Wargaming added more 40m Bofors to the ship in their places I cannot condemn them untill I have seen the stock hull.

Torpedoes have most likely been removed for game balance as they added the airstrikes. So I'll let that slide too.

 

On 4/16/2021 at 10:18 AM, EwoudK said:

Tier 9. Johan de Witt:

-        Main battery should have a calibre of 238mm instead of 240mm (Unhistorical)

Though I do not disagree that the main battery would likely be 238mms. I have not found a source directly stating this.

 

On 4/16/2021 at 10:18 AM, EwoudK said:

Tier 10. Gouden Leeuw:

-        Maximum speed should be 34 knots instead of 33.5 knots (Unhistorical)

-        Should have a floatplane (Game balance)

-        AA-suite should contain A: 7x2 40mm, B: 7x2 40mm + 10x2 12.7mm or C: 8x2 40mm + 8x2 12.7mm instead of 12x1 40mm (Unhistorical)

The ship was designed for 34 knots in normal water and 33 knots in tropical conditions. Reversing the math on tropical conditions reveals that the ship had a performance of between 34 in normal waters to a horsepower equivelant of 34,8 knots in tropical conditions.
Final drawings also show that the machine guns were to be 20mm guns, not 12,7mms. Not that that makes Wargaming's P1047 fanfiction any more accurate.
 

Source: Netherlandsnavy's WI article reprint,  Klaas Meijer's twitter

 

Edited by Sanglune
Sorry about that, posted too early. Now it's done.
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18 hours ago, Sanglune said:

Aight, I has been summoned.

Wow, thank you so much! I think Celebes is still a quite realistic ship (except for those two points), its probably what De Ruyter would have looked like if she was made before the economic crisis. Especially as 4x2 150mm guns were at least talked about in the De Ruyter design.

 

A knot of extra speed on Kijkduin and Eendracht would make sense, given they were supposed to operate together with the future battlecruisers. It appears the sources I used made multiple mistakes in the layout of single or double AA-guns. However, I still think removing 6 torpedo tubes from a historical ship makes no sense. Its not like gun-turrets are removed from other ships to make them 'more balanced', so why should that happen to the Dutch cruisers? If it is really such a problem they can make the torpedoes really bad, I just prefer as much historical accuracy in my game as possible.

 

There is also no source stating 240mm, just 24cm just like in all other German 238mm guns, so 238mm should still be more accurate. The same sources state 28cm whereas the guns are 283mm, and Wargaming did not change the calibre to 280mm in that case either. 

 

Wow, I always though there was no actual final design for the battlecruisers, interesting to find it, thanks! I indeed overlooked to mention the AA-suites with 20mm guns, I shall change that now. However, what exactly do you mean with 'reversing the math'? 

 

In any case, thanks for your comment!

 

 

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On 4/18/2021 at 10:11 AM, EwoudK said:

Wow, thank you so much! I think Celebes is still a quite realistic ship (except for those two points), its probably what De Ruyter would have looked like if she was made before the economic crisis. Especially as 4x2 150mm guns were at least talked about in the De Ruyter design.

 

Wow, I always though there was no actual final design for the battlecruisers, interesting to find it, thanks! I indeed overlooked to mention the AA-suites with 20mm guns, I shall change that now. However, what exactly do you mean with 'reversing the math'?

I talked about this in some discords. The weird thing is they used Celebes hull as was designed back in 1917 and put all sorts of modern ideas on it that don't fit well with the timeframe. Not to mention barbettes would require a redesign of the internal structure. Such a delay between laid down and launch costs millions in yard rental, which is part of why she got cancelled to begin with. A more sensible placement at this tier would be any of the De Ruyter prelims /alternatives proposed.

 

Regarding P1047, it seems I misread about the math reversal. The exact quote was as followed:

Quote

This reduction in the required power took into consideration that theoretically a plant designed at 180.000 SHP in tropical waters would in North Sea conditions actually produce ca. 200.000 SHP, driving the ship at 34.8 kts.

Still, according to Robert O. Dulin, William H. Garzke - British, Soviet, French and Dutch Battleships of WWII-Jane’s Publishing Co. (1980), it reads that the P1047 should be able to reach 34,5kts.
 

A clarification, when I said 'final' I meant that they were one of the latest drawings found, not that they were finalised.

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So uhm... bad news.
Premature info from the test realm (therefore I ought to explicitly disclaim that this is WIP)

Quote

Length: 227,4m
Beam: 28m
Maximum displacement: 27600t

This is smaller than any of the info I have on hand. Only the German design study is shorter at 227m; but that isn't P1047. Beam is wider in every itteration. Most of the early designs fall short of the maximum displacement, but only on standard displacement, not at maximum.
Even worse...

Quote

283 mm/54 28cm Drh.L. C 28
Shell values: As Scharnhorst, 330kg AP and 315 HE at 890m/s

Translation of the above to English: They picked Deutschland-Class guns (C/28), upped the length to 54 calibres (probably 54,5 with dropped decimals in name) like the C/34; then gave it Scharnhorst's shell values.
All of this without bothering to look up the Dutch values nor even bothering to change the name into something the Dutch would call it. Instead they just used a name written in German. Fictional at that.

Anyhow, this is all WIP so one should hold the possibility of change into account. Though I do not reckon Wargaming would placeholder like this.

P.S. Their naming standards (or lack thereof) were a sight to behold. It was as if there was an effort to use every conceivable variation.

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From what i get is that Gouden Leeuw is one of the earlier stages of the design lets say there were 10 tabled proposals(probably more, this is the 2nd that was tabled from what i see so this was not the finalized version(which was 241.20m in lengt oa)

BC9.thumb.jpg.61cfeff43fa65dd8195c8cad24158b44.jpg

 

2130219503_Schermopname(599).thumb.png.22cbdf27a1363a3b2402bb9bff764e18.pngOf course these numbers arent necessarily using all of the numbers as shown on here.

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On 4/16/2021 at 10:18 AM, EwoudK said:

Tier 9. Johan de Witt:

-        Main battery should have a calibre of 238mm instead of 240mm (Unhistorical)

We did have 240mm guns in the ''old'' days

24 cm/40 (9.45")

on Jacob van Heemskerck(1908) and Hertog Hendrik(1904)

these were basicly coastal defence ships

 

Johan de Witt seems to be an mixture (yes i know) of the 16.000 Ton Armored Cruiser project and the 2nd tabled design from 1047 from my earlier comment. Also keep in  mind WG did have access to the archives and records in Den Helder we don't know every single detail ourselves to really confirm every single gun that was planned (the 25mm ones on Celebes are still odd ones),

474740106_Schermopname(600).thumb.png.185c9d493a8799c607de6fffcb79f710.png

 

i know all of this doesnt confirm anything but still have to keep an open mind about all of it,

 

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1 hour ago, Dutch_Soldier said:

 

Spoiler

2130219503_Schermopname(599).thumb.png.22cbdf27a1363a3b2402bb9bff764e18.png

 

I should probably clarify that the table in this image isn't project 1047, but from one of multiple design studies the Germans released to the Dutch.

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On 4/22/2021 at 8:05 PM, Dutch_Soldier said:

We did have 240mm guns in the ''old'' days

The same source you use for 240mm also states the 283mm guns as 28cm. Just because the calibres are rounded up or down on official documents does not mean that the calibre itself was changed to 240mm or 280mm.  If you look at http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_Main.php you can see that all the 24cm guns of Germany were actually 238mm in diameter, even though they were classified as 24cm. The Dutch navy and coastal artillery used exactly the same guns as the Germans and it is never stated that the Dutch navy increased the calibre of its German guns by 2 millimeters. Logically it simply does not make sense that the Dutch would bore out the guns by 2mm and buy entirely new 240mm ammo (ammo about which not a single trace of its existence is found) when they can just buy the 238mm ammo. 

 

image.png.e97675eaf2918912c10788223ec8549d.png

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I like discussions like this on. They give me an overview of how historically ships are (especially paper ships), since it will have a major influence on whether I will keep the ships in port (the more historical, the better the chance they stay). :Smile_teethhappy:

So thanks to you guys!

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