Respecs should be free anyway

[Itwastuesday]

Why should it cost money to test builds/get balance? There's so many things to buy in the game anyway. Like I'm okay with buying a ship, a goofy permacamo, even occasional gambling box such as I'm partial to gambling. But I'm only willing to spend a certain amount on video games a month, and it's not going to be on frickin' respecs.

[159Hunter]

WG: Live server is not for your testing purposes.... only for ours 

[dCK_Ad_Hominem]

6 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

Why should it cost money to test builds/get balance? There's so many things to buy in the game anyway. Like I'm okay with buying a ship, a goofy permacamo, even occasional gambling box such as I'm partial to gambling. But I'm only willing to spend a certain amount on video games a month, and it's not going to be on frickin' respecs.

Everything you listed is optional, the respec isn't. And it can't be since WG needs a sink for us to drop all those "free dubloons" we get from events and what not into.

 

It is the same as going to a fair: upon entry you may receive a voucher for some activity that is usually behind a pay wall. This is done to create an incentive to spend. 

 

Also there are ways to respec without dubs, those are simply not appealing. Same thing as taxes. 

[Jethro_Grey]

4 hours ago, Itwastuesday said:

Why should it cost money to test builds/get balance? There's so many things to buy in the game anyway. Like I'm okay with buying a ship, a goofy permacamo, even occasional gambling box such as I'm partial to gambling. But I'm only willing to spend a certain amount on video games a month, and it's not going to be on frickin' respecs.

There a test server, where you can test builds and can respecc for free. 

I am doing this for a while now, and get goodies just for playing rhere on top.

 

It also saves me lots of CXP, FXP or worst case dubloons for respeccs.

 

While i'm very keen on giving WG sh*t over all the issues the game has, this ain't one.

[Cyclops_]

 

If I want to change  my Frieslands Captains skills, lets say that I have 123456 ships XP on this ship, why can I not use this to change the Captains Skills???

[FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor]

Don't forget the sheer cost in XP of the increased, worthless captain skill points 20 and 21.

 

Wargaming's business model relies as much on players playing PvP modes as it does on players buying their commecial products. That is why they reduced the value of the captain skill points while inordinately increasing the cost of the last two. It is open, blatant price gouging to force us into the grind.

The only adequate, fair and acceptable solution would be

• two full weeks of free captain skill respecc for each and every captain regardless, combined with
• free module demounting and most importantly
• reduction of the prices of skill points 20 and 21 to a combined 700K Commander XP.

And if they don't comply, just walk away.

 

 

[Figment]

IMO resets of captain skills in particular should get a timer after which it'd be free to change.

 

Say a week. If you made a mistake, you can either correct it instantly by paying or wait and deal with it, then do it for free later.

[gslick]

9 hours ago, Itwastuesday said:

Why should it cost money to test builds/get balance? There's so many things to buy in the game anyway. Like I'm okay with buying a ship, a goofy permacamo, even occasional gambling box such as I'm partial to gambling. But I'm only willing to spend a certain amount on video games a month, and it's not going to be on frickin' respecs.

Agree about not spending for respecs.

 

1 hour ago, Figment said:

IMO resets of captain skills in particular should get a timer after which it'd be free to change.

 

Say a week. If you made a mistake, you can either correct it instantly by paying or wait and deal with it, then do it for free later.

I think this would be fine, but at that point why not make it free to change anytime?  Seems would be easier programing (they know how to do already) versus having to keep track of when you last changed a captain.  I have long felt that the cost of respecing a captain was excessive and subject to abuse by WG.  The meta changes for CV rework, new ships, and of course the recent captain skill tree rework have pointed out the abuse.  Over a year ago I wrote the following in the forums (EU or NA not sure,  can't bother to check). 

 

"In my opinion the present cost to redistribute a captains skills (25 Doubloons or 10,000 elite XP per distributed skill point) is extremely excessive and punitive. It punishes players who perhaps chose incorrectly, or hastily.  It tends to lock players into a build which they do not want any more as the meta is frequently changing (CVs) and their play style and game knowledge evolve.  The high cost also discourages experimenting with different builds for fun for a few games and then switching back to their "regular" build.

The occasional and irregular occurrences of a free respec is not a substitute.  They are infrequent, often locked behind a game mode (Clan Battles) not everyone participates in, and are NOT a perk upon which one can count.  Also, the player is still locked in during the interim times. 

I am NOT necessairly advocating for free skill redistributions all of the time.  My recommendation is for a nominal cost to redistribute a captain’s skills of 2 Doubloons or 100 elite cmdr/free XP per distributed skill point.  This is very easy to program as it is just changing 2 constants in their calculations."

 

WG totally ignored this, and the usual shills crapped all over my opinion.  Also, note how after the reworked CVs were allowed in clan battles for the tier 10 CB that we no longer got to freely respec our captain because "since CVs are now in CB there is no need to respec your captain from random where CV is allowed".  However, for the latest CB which was tier 9 and no CV was present there was no free respec of the captains.  TOTAL SCAM by scummy company.

[FlyingBender]

Anyway, should be cheaper.

[Figment]

Respecs being completely free means your choices mean less.

 

In PlanetSide 1, we had a 24h single certification reset (worth 1 to a full cert tree of max 14 cert points out of 21 to 28 depending on game period - certs were purposely very costly to force specialization and interdependency), to avoid people changing their set up to fit the current need and forcing having to make due. That was a 24/7 war with loads of local battles where changing skills and weapons meant breaking rock-paper-scissors balancing by always bring the appropriate rock.

 

Full respecs were not often available, only with major skill tree reworks. It meant your character stayed more unique and built towards your general preferred playstyle with mostly general skills and specialist traits, rather than always being specialized to your current specific needs. It also meant making a “mistake” in specs would be something you’d have to deal with for a day at least.

 

In WoWs you could see the same effect, but since it is a per battle based where you don’t know what you’re up against yet (“I should bring extra AA now.” Is aways hindsight) people are going to spec one default way anyway towards the general skills useful for a certain nation’s tree. Which won’t really differ between tiers much and thus frequent resets aren’t likely anyway.

 

As is, the only reason it even exists is being a money drain. Resets are barely consequential for game to game balance here since everyone builds a generalists built for their ship due to not knowing who they are up against. Hence it is near purely monetizing player choice mistakes, rather than preventing skill reset abuse to optimally adapt to a present situation as you could have had in PlanetSide.

 

 

Note of course that PlanetSide was a monthly subscription MMOFPS game with a few hundred players per map. F2P was not introduced till the game was near comatose around 2008 with the Fodder program that allowed a very minimal amount of certs available per character making them very dependent on paying players (yes, they called F2P players cannon fodder). But even F2P players didn’t face any micro-transactions.

 

 

PlanetSide 2 otoh introduced F2P as basis and large amounts of monetization options around micro-transactions. But even there recerting wasn’t monetized as it is in WoWs. That said, you can endlessly upgrade your specs in PS2 by means of grind.

[FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor]

Vor 2 Minuten, Figment sagte:

Respecs being completely free means your choices mean less.

Yeah that's why people flock here. In search of meaning.

[Figment]

41 minutes ago, FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor said:

Yeah that's why people flock here. In search of meaning.

I don't think you quite understand the point. ;)

 

If you can pick whatever you want whenever you want, the decision to pick something becomes meaningless because there's little long term effect to it. You wouldn't have to deal with the decisions' consequences. Picking ability A denying you ability B for instance. If you can pick B when you need it, despite having chosen A earlier, that earlier pick won't interfere with your later need for B. If however, A is locked in, you will have to make due with the lesser suited tools at your disposal (A, rather than B). So in PlanetSide you could end up without vehicle certs in a vehicle battle, without AA in an air siege or without heavy CQB weapons during indoor combat, no fast console hacking tools, no medical tools, no facility virus removal, no deployable automated turrets, no land mines, no anti-armour weapons facing a rush of mech exo suits, etc. Whereas if you could respec freely or just have any weapon you want, you could counter anything you face without disadvantage, removing any longterm rock-paper-scissors decision making from the game.

 

 

As said, since you can't change specs mid combat in WoWs(which was possible in PlanetSide), you're going to automatically be more likely to opt for a default setup for that ship anyway that works for any game situations you are most likely to encounter, and only then use what remains in points for specializations. But if you are sure you'll enter a game mode without CVs for instance (certain T9 Ranked only matches had that for example), then you would drop any points related to AA if there's a free respec. If you can't due to timer or cost, you'll have to make due with specs that are unsuited or less optimal for that specific match and maybe pick another ship instead.

 

 

So, no, we're not looking for the point of existing here, but decisions meaning something. Sure. Question is, do we really care as a playerbase enough about fixing setups, in a game where normally you only know in hindsight what skills and ship selection would have been most useful? Personally I don't really see the point aside from money grab. Since WG will not shy away from such moneygrab, I proposed a solution (free weekly respec), that allows us as players to change stuff, while WG has their income from people who made speccing mistakes. I personally find it unethical to charge for such things, but it's not my company to run.

[FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor]

Vor 17 Minuten, Figment sagte:

I don't think you quite understand the point. ;)

No I don't think you do.

 

And not just my point but the whole point of online gaming per se.

 

Zitat

If you can pick whatever you want whenever you want, the decision to pick something becomes meaningless because there's little long term effect to it.

And that is as it should be. Because people are not here for meaning but for fun. The grind to even just get to those elusive 21 skill points is generating more than enough sense of achievement, thank you very much.

 

After that, those points, by rights, belong to the players, to do with them as they please whenever. WG not letting them is theft.

Ethically speaking.

Especially when WG is exploiting their power to do so, and exploiting the established addiction mechanics, sunk cost fallacy, whatever you want to call it, in order to squeeze more and more profit out of the playerbase without delivering adequate value. It's graft.

 

And I sure hope they find that out the hard way soon.

[Figment]

2 hours ago, gslick said:

Agree about not spending for respecs.

 

I think this would be fine, but at that point why not make it free to change anytime? 

[...]

The main reason for most grind related costs is money making.

 

Since we don't even know what skills, amount of skillpoints, modules etc. people have installed and people can't change this during the game, none of it matters other than creating silver (create grind need and thus incentize premium accounts) and dubloon sinks. The whole upgrade system is similarly woeful since it's never an equivalent alternative you grind towards, it's always towards an upgrade, to incentize people to grind more and create a false sense of progression (I used to be crap with this ship, but then I got an upgrade!).

 

Same with captain skills tbh. They're grindy false progressions to reward long term players and punish short term players. Creating differences in tools based on time spend in game is a form of competition rigging and using power creep to promote more grind to the top and sell more premium subscriptions. A form we are so used to and is just abstract enough (even if the results are very tangible) nobody really cares as it's the status quo and they never knew otherwise, or people find it justified.

 

 

I miss the 90s at times. At least you would spend once on a game to access everything, maybe purchase an expansion for a single fee later. You'd never spend more than a few months worth of today's games' premium subscriptions.

[Figment]

3 minutes ago, FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor said:

No I don't think you do.

Nice come back. :) But from the rest of your post it shows you clearly don't understand game design. Creating the situation for a player to have fun in, includes creating appropriate challenges, making decisions worthwhile and impacting, giving a sense of accomplishment against odds, etc.

 

You can't define fun by your own definition of fun without taking into account all the other online players you face. If their decisions can be undone by you simply respeccing to counter theirs on the spot, then this often won't be fun to them. In some games, you need attrition mechanics to off-set strengths like numbers. If you can just overcome any attrition, you create mindless zerg gaming by negating strategic elements, which in turn reduces the fun for those being trampled. WHich means they'd quit. And that means less and less PvP players available, which kills your game.

3 minutes ago, FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor said:

And not just my point but the whole point of online gaming per se.

At least you're not arrogant in your ignorance... You basically just claimed that your opinion of fun defines the whole point of online gaming. Self-centered much?

 

 

3 minutes ago, FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor said:

And that is as it should be. Because people are not here for meaning but for fun. The grind to even just get to those elusive 21 skill points is generating more than enough sense of achievement, thank you very much.

 

After that, those points, by rights, belong to the players, to do with them as they please whenever.

 

 

Sorry to say, but this is basically a lot of [edited].

 

 

 

The grind to 21 points in itself is meaningless if it doesn't provide a reward of more abilities, but never has the grind goal been defined as getting all the abilities you want at any time you want them. Nobody plays a game to get 21 points if it's not fun to grind to 21 points. Well... I guess there are masochist exceptions. Those points have a purpose, a meaning. You don't seem to realise that if they had no meaning, they'd not exist, but that they're part of a (somewhat clumsy) money making design (grind = sell premium, reward grind with ability points = affect personal game balance by providing sense of progression through power creep and create a need to grind to get equal in tools with other players).

 

Grind is not fun in and on itself. The amount of complaints about grind and instant gratification replacing actual content and long term consequences and rewards in games is pretty huge. Maybe not for braindead people, but those aren't the only people playing and they're usualy also not the most creative players that make online gaming varied and challenging and therefore interesting. Repetitiveness will lead to a gradual decline. Hence they introduced carrots on a stick rewards to give you some reason to keep playing, like ability points: captain skills.

 

Now, let's look at your point about points, pun intended. You don't even get that those points given to you are part of game design. You see them as something that just exists and you are entitled to. You completely skipped the part where they were designed and introduced for a game design reason. The reason there are points and you can't just get everything, is to create diversity and 'balance' (can't do everything optimal). WG isn't great at this design IMO, but their goal is clear: not give every player every option available and force them to make due with advantages and disadvantages they have a slight bit of control over by forcing them to make choices. And in this case, monetize bad choices by charging for respecs.

 

3 minutes ago, FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor said:

WG not letting them is theft.

No, it's not. Because they gave them to you under the conditions they set. They had no obligation to design such points, let alone design them in the exact way that you personally want to use them.

 

The ethical theft WG does is more in relation to micro-transactions in general, charging people massive costs for single ship untis (DLCs in other games ar much more comprehensive and cheaper), and charging even people with premium accounts.

3 minutes ago, FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor said:

Ethically speaking. Especially when WG is exploiting their power to do so, and exploiting the established addiction mechanics, in order to squeeze more and more profit out of the playerbase without delivering anequate value.

 

And I sure hope they find that out the hard way soon.

Ethically I agree that it's abusing addictions (and quite a few other manipulative things like artificially induced scarcity on ships and an abstracting currency to hide true costs, gambling on lootboxes, among other things).

 

They already found out they can get away with it and more and make huge profits. So no, they won't and have no reason to stop what they're doing unless lawmakers step in like with the loot boxes.

[COPlUM]

7 hours ago, FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor said:

And if they don't comply

Ah this takes me back to 1987
 

 

[Nibenay78]

15 hours ago, Itwastuesday said:

Why should it cost money to test builds/get balance? There's so many things to buy in the game anyway. Like I'm okay with buying a ship, a goofy permacamo, even occasional gambling box such as I'm partial to gambling. But I'm only willing to spend a certain amount on video games a month, and it's not going to be on frickin' respecs.

Because money = profit! If only Lesta was available on the international stock market.. seeing how insane amounts random people use, that don't even know how to play.

[Murqy]

Before they released the Swedish DDs free respecs came often (compared to how it is now), and it was a good thing. It meant you could experiment and grow as a player. You could adapt ships from randoms to competitive and then change back after the season.

 

With all the captains on all the ships, with all the new points and everything to try its beyond frustrating to not have the ability to test things anymore. We got used to how it was before, and to not have it any longer just because WG:s greed is growing makes you question what they, as a company, actually tries to achieve. We are here to have fun, not because we are forced? So why create frustration? Is it a hidden cry for help from developers?

 

[Figment]

10 hours ago, Murqy said:

Before they released the Swedish DDs free respecs came often (compared to how it is now), and it was a good thing. It meant you could experiment and grow as a player. You could adapt ships from randoms to competitive and then change back after the season.

 

 

 

With all the captains on all the ships, with all the new points and everything to try its beyond frustrating to not have the ability to test things anymore. We got used to how it was before, and to not have it any longer just because WG:s greed is growing makes you question what they, as a company, actually tries to achieve. We are here to have fun, not because we are forced? So why create frustration? Is it a hidden cry for help from developers?

Thing is, being used to being thrown a bone occasionally doesn’t guarantee, entitle or structurally imply that bone has to be thrown. It’s up to the whims and courtesy of WG to set aside their money making in the interest of the playerbase.

 

They are here to make money. They decide what is on offer. We can ask and be given stuff, but unless you can find some fine print in a clause of the EULA/player agreement where they make an explicit contract with the player they are not obligated to do any such thing.

 

Customer loyalty or having bought other stuff doesn’t entitle you to anything. If a cheese shop owner gives you some free cheese to taste or because you’re a kid. Does that mean you are from there on out entitled to free cheese?

[HMS_Edinburgh_C16]

On 4/12/2021 at 6:50 AM, Itwastuesday said:

Why should it cost money to test builds/get balance? There's so many things to buy in the game anyway. Like I'm okay with buying a ship, a goofy permacamo, even occasional gambling box such as I'm partial to gambling. But I'm only willing to spend a certain amount on video games a month, and it's not going to be on frickin' respecs.

the vodka that devs are using its not free

[Murqy]

7 hours ago, Figment said:

Thing is, being used to being thrown a bone occasionally doesn’t guarantee, entitle or structurally imply that bone has to be thrown. It’s up to the whims and courtesy of WG to set aside their money making in the interest of the playerbase.

 

They are here to make money. They decide what is on offer. We can ask and be given stuff, but unless you can find some fine print in a clause of the EULA/player agreement where they make an explicit contract with the player they are not obligated to do any such thing.

 

Customer loyalty or having bought other stuff doesn’t entitle you to anything. If a cheese shop owner gives you some free cheese to taste or because you’re a kid. Does that mean you are from there on out entitled to free cheese? 

Let's just say I'm going to that cheese shop together with my friends, and we always buy a lot. What we especially like about this cheeseshop is the ability to taste cheese before buying so we know we get the right one. Then we happily spend our money once we have decided.

 

Now when the cheese shop has changed its policy and no longer offer testing, none of us actually feeling like going there anymore. Testing was what brought us together and then fun part of doing it was actually a big part going to that shop in the first place. Now my friends order their cheese online instead, and I'm thinking of maybe stopping completly. Maybe we should spend our money on wine instead. 

 

The cheeseshop lost customers thanks to a poor descision. It was some spending on their part but it created bigger incomes in the long run. They got greedy because they wanted to both eat and have the cheese (cake) at the same time.

[Figment]

2 minutes ago, Murqy said:

Let's just say I'm going to that cheese shop together with my friends, and we always buy a lot. What we especially like about this cheeseshop is the ability to taste cheese before buying so we know we get the right one. Then we happily spend our money once we have decided.

 

Now when the cheese shop has changed its policy and no longer offer testing, none of us actually feeling like going there anymore. Testing was what brought us together and then fun part of doing it was actually a big part going to that shop in the first place. Now my friends order their cheese online instead, and I'm thinking of maybe stopping completly. Maybe we should spend our money on wine instead. 

 

The cheeseshop lost customers thanks to a poor descision. It was some spending on their part but it created bigger incomes in the long run. They got greedy because they wanted to both eat and have the cheese (cake) at the same time.

Now let's say it's the only cheese shop in town.

 

Let's face it, you're not here for the free respecs and it's not going to bother you enough to leave.

[Murqy]

Then we will wait till newly announced autumn cheese testing and discounts before going there again, and stock of with cheese for the rest of the year . We wont eat cheese as often as we would have want to but we still get by. The store also sells other things that's nice to have, but not need to have. Earlier we would have bought things, now we want to show that we disagree with the new shop policy.

 

[Figment]

Otoh, the shop might see other people who used to wait for freebies buy stuff instead.

[Lootboxer]

10 hours ago, Figment said:

Customer loyalty or having bought other stuff doesn’t entitle you to anything. If a cheese shop owner gives you some free cheese to taste or because you’re a kid. Does that mean you are from there on out entitled to free cheese?

Cheese shop does not advertise as a "free to eat" though....