Dutch cruiser names. The good, the bad and the ugly.

[Meneleus]

I cannot help but cringe at some of the names given to those ships in the new Netherlands cruiser line who benefitted from some... let's say creative license.

 

Tiers 1-4, the van Kinsbergen, Gelderland, Java and De Ruyter are all historical ships named after an admiral, a province, a island within the Dutch East Indies and another admiral respectively. The T6 and T7, the Kijkduin and the Eendracht are named after a famous naval battle and the Unity (Eendracht) formed by the provinces of the old republic. 

 

Usual Dutch naming policies for major surface combatants is often rather straightforward, they are named after naval commanders, provinces, colonies and sometimes royals or their stadtholder forebears. Hence my surprise with some of the "paper" ships.

 

T5 - Celebes

The thing looks nothing like the enlarged Java-class cruiser that was cancelled at the last moment. It superficially resembles a Tromp class cruiser, a ship that actually existed and might be a better fit, even if it might require some creativity to do so. Please replace this thing with the Tromp, a ship named after one of our beloved admirals.

 

T8 - Haarlem

Historically the only two modern warships named after cities to my knowledge were Amsterdam and Rotterdam. Haarlem is a weird choice, almost as if we are Germans, who actually do have the habit of naming their light cruisers after cities. Take an admiral instead, such as Brederode for example. We have plenty.

 

T9 - Johan de Witt

Gods... Johan de Witt was raadspensionaris of Holland and murdered during the crisis of 1672, some say even partially eaten. He has nothing to do with Dutch naval tradition (perhaps aside from allocating budget). I suppose Wargaming has him confused with Witte de With, a famous dutch naval officer who was killed in action aboard his flagship, the Brederode. Even more reason to rename the T8 I suppose. The T9 aught to be named Witte de With in line with Dutch naval tradition.

 

T10 - De Gouden Leeuw

While I am dissatisfied with the previous two ships this name mortifies me. "De Gouden Leeuw" is a name given to a pub, café or snackbar, not to the pride of the fleet. Since the names De Ruyter and De Zeven Provinciën are not available (De Zeven Provinciën was De Ruyter's flagship funny enough), some other name would have to do. Perhaps Willem de Zwijger (William the Silent, first stadtholder of the Dutch Republic), Nieuwpoort (A military victory), Frederik Hendrik (stadtholder, military leader and son of William the Silent) or some admiral. We have plenty of admirals. As you should realize by now...

 

Just my two cents. Weird names tend to make me sad.

 

Regards, M

[Karasu_Browarszky]

Sound like beer brands to me.

[Hugh_Ruka]

I don't speak or understand Dutch but seeing De Gouden Leeuw evoked a pud to me immediately ...

[CaptainThunderWalker]

I can at least explain a few of those:

 

Celebes was the third ship of the Java-class that was cancelled. There were plans in the 1920 to redesign her as a ship with four twin turrets; more than that I don't know (nor do I know how far those plans had progressed or if they were just a napkin sketch that Wargaming gave the Russian Battleship treatment.

 

De Gouden Leeuw was the flagship of Cornelis Tromp during the Third Anglo-Dutch War. It was a logical name (the only real competitor is Brederode) - I remember when I had to name the Design 1047s when I made my own Tech Tree proposal waaaay back that I named the Tier IX Gouden Leeuw and the Tier X Brederode simply because all the names used in recent history were already taken elsewhere; whether that was by destroyers or cruisers that actually existed and would be either earlier in the tech tree or premium ships.

 

This is also why you can't really put in Tromp; the fact that she is not in the Cruiser line is a dead giveaway for her to end up in the destroyer line somewhere. As for Jacob van Heemskerck; that is also a very obvious future premium (I remember being surprised that this was not the first Dutch premium actually; she could help in lower tiers with the RTS CV sealclubbers back in the day.)

 

As for Haarlem and Johan de Witt, I completely agree that neither name makes much sense.

1 minute ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

I don't speak or understand Dutch but seeing De Gouden Leeuw evoked a pud to me immediately ...

Gouden Leeuw means Golden Lion.

 

[Meneleus]

Guess "Gouden Leeuw" aught to be reserved for a future Lannister premium.

 

The only truly widely appreciated brand of beer in the Netherlands is Hertog Jan, which would be an excellent name for a ship.

[Aragathor]

1 hour ago, Meneleus said:

T8 - Haarlem

Historically the only two modern warships named after cities to my knowledge were Amsterdam and Rotterdam. Haarlem is a weird choice, almost as if we are Germans, who actually do have the habit of naming their light cruisers after cities. Take an admiral instead, such as Brederode for example. We have plenty.

Haarlem was a common name for ships in the age of sail Dutch navy. So it kinda fits. Kinda.

[Logan_MountStuart]

The current Johan de Witt.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

1 minute ago, Logan_MountStuart said:

The current Johan de Witt.

 

I'd hate to be the one to pay their electricity bill.

[ImperialAdmiral]

Gouden Leeuw reminds me of

 

 

which tbh honest is epic

 

[Meneleus]

18 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

Haarlem was a common name for ships in the age of sail Dutch navy. So it kinda fits. Kinda.

 

The age of sail featured many names not used in the modern era. Imagining Wargaming naming a ship "De Groote Liefde" (The Great Love), "Beschermer" (Protector) or God forbid, "Melkschuit" (Milk Barge). I'll admit Haarlem is not the worst offender of the bunch, it is just off. 

 

20 minutes ago, Logan_MountStuart said:

The current Johan de Witt.

 

That is not a major surface combatant but an amphibious warfare craft. If you include gunboats, torpedoboats, minelayers, tugs and other miscellaneous ships you can come up with a pretty entertaining list of names though ;-)

[illy]

22 minutes ago, ImperialAdmiral said:

Gouden Leeuw reminds me of

 

 

which tbh honest is epic

 

their Imperial Stout is rather good but strong as hell

[Yedwy]

22 minutes ago, ImperialAdmiral said:

Gouden Leeuw reminds me of

 

 

which tbh honest is epic

 

I liky liky 

[Figment]

1 hour ago, Meneleus said:

That is not a major surface combatant but an amphibious warfare craft. If you include gunboats, torpedoboats, minelayers, tugs and other miscellaneous ships you can come up with a pretty entertaining list of names though ;-)

De Witt came up with the Raid on the Medway and the concept of the marines and was heavily involved in the planning of the Chatham naval operation afaik. It's not inconceivable given the constitutional monarchy meant parliament had a say in such things, but given the opposition to the Oranjes by the Republican De Witt brothers, I'd doubt they'd use the name under Queen Wilhelmina, who was afaik somewhat disappointed with the constitutional restraints on the monarchy.

 

As for Hr. Ms. Haarlem:

 

Quote

 

Wiki:

·         Haarlem (1620), een schip van de West-Indische Compagnie

·         Haarlem (1623), een schip van de Admiraliteit van Amsterdam

·         Haarlem (1636), een linieschip van de Admiraliteit van Amsterdam

·         Haarlem (1644), een linieschip van de Admiraliteit van Amsterdam

·         Raadhuis van Haarlem, een Nederlands schip

·         Haarlem (1673), een Nederlandse Galjoot

·         Haarlem (1688), een linieschip van de Admiraliteit van Amsterdam

·         Haarlem (1721), een linieschip van de Admiraliteit van Amsterdam

·         Haarlem (1737), een linieschip van de Admiraliteit van Amsterdam

·         Haarlem (1785), een linieschip van de Admiraliteit van Amsterdam

·         Hr.Ms. Haarlem (1984), een Nederlandse mijnenjager van de Alkmaarklasse.

 

So a WIC (armed) merchant ship, lots of ships of the line from the Admirality Amsterdam (biggest Dutch Admirality of the period, such ships had 50+ cannons, usualy no more than two gun decks due to the shallow waters), a gallion and finally a minesweeper as only modern ship. It's not an uncommon naval name in that sense and De Zeven Provinciën is also named after a ship of the line.

 

 

Given the period and purpose however, Project 1047 and other ships were destined to be used in Indonesian waters to deter the Japanese fleet. Hence it would IMO make more sense to use colonial referencing names as several others had been given. I'm not sure if we're going to see others with similar names, but I'd have imagined Sumatra, Borneo, Papua Nieuw-Guinea and other islands under Dutch rule to be the most likely name donors for ships build during the pre-WWII period that were destined for that theater of war, rather than Tromp's ship.

 

 

Alternatively, Hr. Ms. Koningin Regentes (named after Queen Regent Emma), or other names used on pantserschepen (Dutch pre-WOI ironclads) could be applicable. Buffel, Guinea, Schorpioen, Stier, King of the Netherlands, Hertog Hendrik (Duke Hendrik). As you can tell from the remainder of the list, you had these:

 

Ironclads

·         De Ruyter 1863-1874

Ramtowerships, with a ramming bow

·         Prins Hendrik der Nederlanden 1866 - 1905

·         Buffelklasse

o    Buffel 1868 - 1940, 1945 - 1973, afterwards museumship

o    Guinea 1870 - 1897

·         Schorpioenklasse

o    Schorpioen 1868 - 1908, now museumship

o    Stier 1868 - 1925

·         Koning der Nederlanden 1874 - 1895

Pantserschepen

·         Evertsenklasse

o    Evertsen 1894 - 1914

o    Piet Hein 1894 - 1914

o    Kortenaer 1894 - 1920

·         Koningin Regentesklasse

o    Koningin Regentes 1900 - 1920

o    De Ruyter 1901 - 1923

o    Hertog Hendrik 1902 - 1945

·         Marten Harpertsz. Tromp 1904 - 1927

·         Jacob van Heemskerck 1906 - 1948, afterwards Hr.Ms. Neptunus

·         De Zeven Provinciën 1909 - 1942

 

Most of these names were reused later on as well too after all.

 

It would make sense to use vlootvoogd names though:

 

 Vlootvoogden

• Amstel, Jan van: commandeur (1654)
• Brakel, Jan van: schout-bij-nacht (1684)
• Braam, Jacob Pieter van: viceadmiraal (1792)
• Callenburgh, Gerard: luitenant-admiraal (1709)
• Gravé, Hendrik: commandeur (1717)
• Haen, Cornelis Jansz
• Heemskerck, Jacob van: viceadmiraal (1598)
• Hulst, Abraham van der: viceadmiraal (1665)
• Kinsbergen, Jan Hendrik van: luitenant-admiraal (1814)
• Raye, Johan: kapitein ter zee
• Reynst, Pieter Hendrik
• Ruyter, Engel de: schout-bij-nacht (1673); viceadmiraal (1678)
• Ruyter, Michiel de
• Schepers, Willem Bastiaensz: viceadmiraal (1678)
• Schey, Gilles
• Star, Enno Doedes
• Schrijver, Cornelis: kapitein en vlagofficier
• Sweers, Isaac: viceadmiraal
• Tromp, Cornelis: luitenant-admiraal (1666)
• Vollenhove, Hendrik
• Zaen, Willem van der
• Zoutman, Johan

[invicta2012]

1 hour ago, Meneleus said:

The age of sail featured many names not used in the modern era. Imagining Wargaming naming a ship "De Groote Liefde" (The Great Love), "Beschermer" (Protector) or God forbid, "Melkschuit" (Milk Barge). I'll admit Haarlem is not the worst offender of the bunch, it is just off. 

Why not call it Van Ghent? I appreciate the name was in use as an Evertsen class destroyer but that was lost in 1942 and the name has an illustrious heritage. Failing that, pick a name from the Battle of Texel / Kijkduin- there's more than few familiar names here, on both sides: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Texel

[Meneleus]

Well, that is my point really. The name Haarlem has been used in the age of sail, as well as just about every name under the sun. The only modern ship named Haarlem is a minesweeper, which is not a major surface combatant.

 

I do not consider ironclads and the like modern or even semi-modern warships, though one can argue early pre-WW1 destroyers of the navy were named after predatory animals. The "coastal battleships" or pantserschepen were mostly named after admirals and naval heroes, the exception being de Koningin Regentes and Hertog Hendrik, which were named after members of the royal family, consorts of William III and Wilhelmina respectively. Marrying german nobility seems to have been quite the hype...

[ThePopesHolyFinger]

5 hours ago, Meneleus said:

 

T10 - De Gouden Leeuw

While I am dissatisfied with the previous two ships this name mortifies me. "De Gouden Leeuw" is a name given to a pub, café or snackbar, not to the pride of the fleet...

 

HMS Royal Oak disagrees and asks which came first - the pub or the ship?

[Figment]

7 hours ago, DB2212 said:

HMS Royal Oak disagrees and asks which came first - the pub or the ship?

In the UK it seems it’s either that or “The King’s Head” for a pub name.

[Meneleus]

7 hours ago, DB2212 said:

HMS Royal Oak disagrees and asks which came first - the pub or the ship?

 

I would not be surprised if the first version was a floating drinking hole tbh...

[LeSnoet]

11 hours ago, Meneleus said:

Guess "Gouden Leeuw" aught to be reserved for a future Lannister premium.

 

The only truly widely appreciated brand of beer in the Netherlands is Hertog Jan, which would be an excellent name for a ship.

Can we get a Grolsch CV line then? 

[CaptainThunderWalker]

10 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

Why not call it Van Ghent? I appreciate the name was in use as an Evertsen class destroyer but that was lost in 1942 and the name has an illustrious heritage. Failing that, pick a name from the Battle of Texel / Kijkduin- there's more than few familiar names here, on both sides: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Texel

It could be that the name Van Ghent will be used in the Dutch destroyer line.

[illy]

3 hours ago, LeSnoet said:

Can we get a Grolsch CV line then? 

they brew that less than 5kms away from where i live, despite asking several times for a direct pipeline to the brewery i have yet to receive a reply 

[Chaos_Umbra]

8 hours ago, Figment said:

In the UK it seems it’s either that or “The King’s Head” for a pub name.

My local is called the Woodman so that is not true.

 

We have one further away called the Windsor Castle with a picture of an old sailing ship on the sign, but when it was refurbished they replaced it with an image of the castle, the people in charge clearly had no clue that it was named after a ship that was named after the castle... 

[22cm]

21 hours ago, Meneleus said:

I cannot help but cringe at some of the names given to those ships in the new Netherlands cruiser line who benefitted from some... let's say creative license.

 

 "De Gouden Leeuw" is a name given to a pub, café or snackbar, not to the pride of the fleet.

 

I like pubs, and sailors like them, too. So it s a fine name.

[Uglesett]

20 hours ago, Meneleus said:

The only truly widely appreciated brand of beer in the Netherlands is Hertog Jan, which would be an excellent name for a ship.

Tried it when I was in Rotterdam for work a few years back. Had two pints with dinner, and probably should have asked how strong it was before I ordered the second one 

[Meneleus]

10 hours ago, CaptainThunderWalker said:

It could be that the name Van Ghent will be used in the Dutch destroyer line.

If memory serves it was the lead ship in a series of destroyers, if WG will introduce a Dutch destroyer line it may very well make an appearance.

 

11 hours ago, LeSnoet said:

Can we get a Grolsch CV line then? 

The only carrier we ever had was the Karel Doorman, so I don't think we can. We might have operated an escort carrier during WW2 as well though, prolly named Karel Doorman as well.

 

3 hours ago, Uglesett said:

Tried it when I was in Rotterdam for work a few years back. Had two pints with dinner, and probably should have asked how strong it was before I ordered the second one 

I guess it blew you away, like a proper T10 should ;-)