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Northern_Nightowl

Tutoring thread: BDA and tactics corner

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Hello!

 

I'm going to give a try at this idea here: a tutoring thread build for contacts between players wanting to learn how to get better and seasoned swashbucklers of warship deck planks. I'm envisioning that somebody posts a replay or some other kind of documentation of an actual WoWS battle event to get a BDA - battle damage assessment - and a feedback what went wrong and what were good moves.

That means that I'm counting on some self restrain of people that are looking for venting anger and ranting about any thingamabob that may have bugged them - so: please do not derail this by making it another thread about MM, CV and backline BB campers!:cap_like:

 

Maybe we could agree on these framework conditions for the BDA:

  • all is about your own gameplay!
  • no criticism of third parties beyond simple statements of error causes or stating neutrally some flaws (as in e.g. "The DD popped the smoke in a untimely manner, that's why you lost any surprise")
  • aim for the most concise problem statements and questions, as they could be expected to draw the better answers.
  • using references like battle timecodes and grid squares or annotated screenshots will surely enhance the value of any answer.

 

I know that I am myself yet still a novice, still learning tactics, map awareness, etc. I hope that this doesn't counteract the intention of this thread. If the idea doesn't fit, well, then let it sink in the oblivion of remote forum pages... But it should be worth the try. :cap_hmm:

 

Anyway, I'll start with a replay right now. Today, 2021-04-05 evening, Bronze Ranked on "Greece" in my North Carolina. The team split up for two caps and lost. And I don't know what went wrong, the Reds managed to build a vertical front line and squashing the remaining BB against the "10-column" on the right. In my last moments, I tried to disable the turrets of a Jean Bart that was close with main battery HE.

- Was the defeat due to a bad forces repartition?

- What about the positioning?

- Any comments on target selection and ammunition choices?

 

 -> 20210405_184825_PASB012-North-Carolina-1945_51_Greece.wowsreplay

 

Regards, Nightowl

 

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44 minutes ago, Northern_Nightowl said:

- Was the defeat due to a bad forces repartition? 

- What about the positioning?

 

1. Yes - atleast part of it

shot-21_04.05_22_47.27-0171.thumb.jpg.a80c24a130447634bc212f21019c0f05.jpg

BBs should never go to one spot, because then they have 0 crossfire. Ofc if your other BBs follow you, then there is nothing you can do about that. If you see, that all BBs go the same way, turn around and do your own thing. You could have turned towards A and maybe delay the enemies from pushing through, or waste your time on you. That this would have changed the outcome of the game is extremely unlikely tho.

That the 2 guys on A died immediately didnt help. Also your Kita did absolutely nothing.

shot-21_04.05_22_49.14-0256.thumb.jpg.2fc11c2699bbb2018915c72f72e52865.jpg

Here you see all 3 BBs on one spot, enemies can steamroll through the middle and shoot your broadside. They can angle with ease, you cant.

Basicly your team gave up all map control as you can see. There is nothing, your DD is on the 10 line for no reason.

 

One other thing early on (basicly right after the first screenshot above), you eat a torp, because you go into the smoke of your Kita. The 2nd DD capped C, so you could have known that he was around. Torping a smoke is what DDs like to do, so better stay away from those, especially if they are so useless like the one from the kita.

Also after taking the torp, you showed way too much broadside, and took unnecessary damage. Your flank was 5vs3 and the enemies essentially outdamaged you without issues. You lost like 3/4 of your HP + heals and so did your FDG infront.

 

52 minutes ago, Northern_Nightowl said:

- Any comments on target selection and ammunition choices? 

 

Try to focus on one ship, Alaska wasnt dead when you started shooting the FDG. Also by moving more towards the border, he could relatively easily keep the island between him and all BBs, because you were all on one spot.

Also, dont use HE on BB turrets, that will not incapaciate them. Use AP, or if you have HE loaded, just aim so you get most hits and pens (superstructure, upper belt, bow). You dont have to switch to HE if you might shoot a DD. AP hurts aswell, and with HE loaded you might miss out on a broadside.

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Thank you @DFens_666!

 

I've learned:

- a BB team splitting helps in building crossfire opportunities, good for damage maximisation as enemy's angling becomes less useful.

- if you put your steel inside a smoke puff, it'll enhance the smoke's torpedo magnet characteristics / driving in smoke = risks from area denial torping (I should assess those risks in a better way)

- BB are forces that could/should be employed for delaying actions (well, that is already obvious, their resilience presents itself for that)

- I forgot about the Wiki ammo entry: " Modules protected by 76mm or thicker armor are immune from blast damage".

 

And the battle showed again the importance of trying to minimize your own exposition to enemy fire while trying to maximize the exposition of the Reds.

 

Is this résumé correct? :cap_hmm:

 

Regards, Nightowl

 

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10 hours ago, Northern_Nightowl said:

Is this résumé correct?

 

Yes.

In ranked, especially in Bronze right now, BBs will often go to the home cap, because they feel safe. So that means, you should often go to the contested cap, i think its always A-Cap. But usually just check where your other BBs are going, so that you can react if every BB goes to the same spot. Dont expect your teammates to do the right thing...

 

 

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Hello @DFens_666!

 

I came to put your advice "make 2 BB groups for crossfiring opportunities" into use.

Additionally, I recalled that "making damage on DD is more important than damaging BB" as it helps more in winning the engagement (something I read recently here in the forums).

It's a nice win: 20210406_213425_PASB012-North-Carolina-1945_16_OC_bees_to_honey.wowsreplay

Team: 3 DD, 1 CA, 3 BB on "Hotspot"

 

At the beginning, I noticed that every BB was driving to C, I decided to switch sides and follow our 2 DD towards A. Normally, I'm a bit afraid of open water and tend to take any on my BB into archipelagos of the map that I happen to be on, with the thinking of using islands as cover that may come in handy.

 

The side switch was nevertheless likely the right thing to do, as we 3 went on to clash with 2 red DD, sinking them and getting two caps, A and B, in the process at the cost of the single team loss, our Ognewoi.

Apart from our CA that behaved somehow like a scatterbrain, the remainder of our team bottled up the reds on C, torp-sinking an enemy Missouri a bit in their's (red's) back and whittling down the health of several ships.

The final phase was simply about finishing off Red's remains. I came out with having damaged every red DD and with a wish to share this experience here.

 

My North Carolina was additionally possibly blessed by RNGesus, as I got several times great proportions of actual shell hits of those fired in my salvos (first actual salvo of mine: 3 pens / 1 overpen on a Roon at the end of his turn at 14 km) or managed nicely damaging hits. Take those on a stationary Pommern: I had HE shells loaded for the upcoming engagement with the DD around B but was certain that I won't get the opportunity to fire on any of those for more than 30 seconds. Hence, I discharged my main battery on the Pommern, crushings its torpedo tubes in the process - there was no need to ignore the potential damage that HE shells provide.

As I knowingly disregarded the threat of the Pommern and an Alabama on my left side, I was lucky that they didn't manage any consistent attack on my broadside - but I thought that eliminating one or more DD with superior force is more important than focusing on steel BUFFs. The gamble paid of, supported by the fact that the single torpedo that would have hit me went instead into the wreck of our Ognewoi, one of the 2 DD that went first-hand after the caps on the left.

 

Lessons taken home:

- look where your combat strength could be the most beneficial!

- confirmed: DD hunting helps often in winning

- I will still have to better manage my playing aggressivity, it could have been very well that a gamble of risking broadsides will not pay off.

 

Regards, Nightowl.

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I presently have a problem with a map. I can't read "Greece" at all, loosing even more battles there than would be "normal" with my WR.

 

- What are key points for cruisers, when you aim to employ radar or hydro search with the best efficiency?

- What may be basics for BB there?

- Of course, any advice for DD drivers would be welcome too.

 

Here are three replays illustrating the results of me not really knowing how to proceed:

20210419_173559_PGSC109-Roon_51_Greece.wowsreplay

20210509_231705_PASB018-Iowa-1944_51_Greece.wowsreplay

20210509_234335_PASB018-Iowa-1944_51_Greece.wowsreplay

 

Looking eagerly forward for hints - Nightowl

 

 

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On 4/6/2021 at 12:20 AM, Northern_Nightowl said:

a BB team splitting helps in building crossfire opportunities, good for damage maximisation as enemy's angling becomes less useful.

No, its not fir damage maximisation, it's for map controll. Which then leads to more opportunities to deal damage. Always ask yourself, no matter the (surface ship): where is a potential weak spot that needs to be protected, where is a lack of fire power?

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7 hours ago, Northern_Nightowl said:

I presently have a problem with a map. I can't read "Greece" at all, loosing even more battles there than would be "normal" with my WR.

 

- What are key points for cruisers, when you aim to employ radar or hydro search with the best efficiency?

- What may be basics for BB there?

- Of course, any advice for DD drivers would be welcome too.

 

Here are three replays illustrating the results of me not really knowing how to proceed:

20210419_173559_PGSC109-Roon_51_Greece.wowsreplay

20210509_231705_PASB018-Iowa-1944_51_Greece.wowsreplay

20210509_234335_PASB018-Iowa-1944_51_Greece.wowsreplay

 

Looking eagerly forward for hints - Nightowl

 

 

I hate Greece because its center is clogged with islands on the left and center. It leads to very static gameplay and makes you very dependent on your team. If your team does not take any initiative and sucks generally speaking it is very hard to carry.

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9 hours ago, Northern_Nightowl said:

I presently have a problem with a map. I can't read "Greece" at all, loosing even more battles there than would be "normal" with my WR.

 

- What are key points for cruisers, when you aim to employ radar or hydro search with the best efficiency?

- What may be basics for BB there?

- Of course, any advice for DD drivers would be welcome too.

 

Here are three replays illustrating the results of me not really knowing how to proceed:

20210419_173559_PGSC109-Roon_51_Greece.wowsreplay

20210509_231705_PASB018-Iowa-1944_51_Greece.wowsreplay

20210509_234335_PASB018-Iowa-1944_51_Greece.wowsreplay

 

Looking eagerly forward for hints - Nightowl

 

 

Like all the high tier maps, Greece is a terrible map, one that produces identical matches each time, boring and stupid. The good thing about that is that if you work out a playstyle that always works for you, you can always use it.


On any map, keep your BB between the 4 and 7 lines so you can control the center but flex to a flank that needs you. On Greece I prefer to go to the west side where there is more open water behind the islands for dodging shells and disappearing. I like to keep my BB moving and so I do not play any ships that use the bow-tanking playstyle, such as Krem or Yammy. Ships on the east side will be broadside to you, in sight of your own ships, and you can shoot at them, often without being detected yourself. You need to practice long range shooting, but often they will stop beside an island, assuming they are safe from shells.

One thing you might do on any map is push up to below the cap in the opening of the match, then turn and kite away. Once you get your BB turned incoming fire is very easy to dodge, and you can shoot back easily as well. You can also put shells on DDs in the cap, which is key to winning and to getting good XP for yourself. Your DDs will play more aggressively because they have BB support up close and personal. Make sure your turrets are turned out so that when you come round, they are facing the proper direction.

 

If you do that, you need to ensure that you are turned before red BBs see you, but once you are turned, you have the advantage.

 

Keep your BB in the center, mostly, unless a situation develops in which you can wreck face by pushing into a cap.

 

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I would like to have an exchange about DD tactics.

Lately, I became fond of flanking moves using my HSF Harekaze (or the Benson, my other high tiered DD) and using, maybe abusing, stealth torping.

Besides own attacks, providing vision for my team is also a concern. But this may come situationally as a secondary aim after getting into the enemy's back.

 

Some hours ago, I played a domination game with my Harekaze on Ice Islands in Silver Ranked.

There, I flanked to the right and down column 8, getting at first B cap assisted and then one, C,  unassisted. Meanwhile, the remainder of my team fought an attrition battle around the third cap, where all Reds went too; minus an Alsace that I found in C cap, before it drove out of it and engaged some teammates from the middle of the map.

One of these teammates criticised me for not having done anything useful. Indeed, I did not spot much, more or less only said Alsace, and had not much occasions to employ my weapons until the end (I came out with 3 torpedo hits on the French BB, roundabout 30k damage and was nearly sunk: 54 HP remained). We won (second place for me).

Meanwhile, I got a bit unsure. Did I exaggerate in trying to maximize the strengths of my ship (stealth, good fishes) while playing too "safe" (going for safe cap points, avoiding the hottest actions), as I am quite aware that my DD is fragile for its tier? Was the critique "You did nothing" vindicated or doesn't it matter HOW you do it, as long as it's a win? How may you recognize the border between playing too cowardly and being a kind of parasite to your team and wisely keeping your force and health points in reserve for a later game phase?

 

For reference, the replay is appended. I'm looking forward for comments!

 

Regards, Nightowl

 

20210619_015041_PJSD708-HSF-Harekaze_18_NE_ice_islands.wowsreplay

 

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Northern_Nightowl did you take into account which game mode you are asking about ? Randoms is extremely different then ranked for example. In Ranked agressive tactics and close range combat work ( and is even required ) because a wall of enemies everywhere is lacking and going around enemies and attacking them in the back or flank as a solo player is a real option. In randoms there is a wall of enemies everywhere that will shoot anything that pops into their view so agressive tactics  can never work and all tactics are pointed at thinning the other side out before you can move more freely.

 

Then it is logical that what works in ranked does not work in randoms, and the other way around.

 

Then there is the point of which class you want to know ? And what type ? For example there are DD designed for fighting over caps that can do little else, and DD that are designed to slip through enemy lines and sink BB from stealth. And DD designed - and built= RDF/RL - to hunt and kill other DD whereever they are in the map. Stealth BB sinking DD  cannot take on cap fighting or DD hunting DD  ( and cannot fight over caps ) as their gun power is much weaker. And to complex things there are even DD that are suposed to sink enemies - even BB - with guns only. One class very differen tactics. For Cruisers is is the same, there are DD-in-cap killer Cruisers , AA "go wide around me and lose time or planes" Cruisers,  enemy BB herassment Cruisers ( these lob fire at enemy BB's ) and Cruisers that block the enemy advance ( designed island huggers ) that can be AA or DD kileer as well. BB come in CQC and long range variations as well.

 

So tactics are dependend on ship type, your build and mode and is too vast to even begin to write down.

 

I nice last remark : while the CV player is often frowned upon, it gives the very best position to see everything being unfold and learn the most of tactics used and how they work or not work. You see enemies batteling each other in detail while flying over them that others do not see from surface perspective. You can see what is going to happen before it is happening as you can recognise what an enemy is up to far before those with only the mini map and their limited surface view can see. So maybe not your playing stype, but there is much to learn and see being up there.  Perspective from the air is a great source of seeying what others do and learning from it so playing their class you can apply that too !

 

And even CV come with their own specific set of different natural targets and tactics. Some are very flexible ( US line ) some really focussed on one type of enemy or one type of munitions, such as fast and heavy  torpedo's or AP munitions.

 

 

 

 

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@Northern_Nightowl

 

well, hello there. While I have no access to my game computer and I cannot review your replay I can give a shot at some general answers to your questions.

1. Harekaze, as you correctly said, has good torps and is very stealthy. However, it also has very good guns. The 100s. (while I don't know how it went down, I would say that if the BB remained alive with 54HP you should have switched to guns and finish it off)

2. Caps win games. Sometimes you will fight for them, sometimes you will just snatch them. If a cap is uncontested, pick it up and return to where you are needed.

3. One of the major rules when playing DD is "Don't Die". Your value in game increases as time goes by. This being said, another rule is that "your teams will not carry you all the time".

 

One more thing. Watch your replays and see if you can come up with an answer to your questions. Give it a try. Watch again this game you just posted and try to figure it out. Trust me on this one. You will progress a lot more if you view with a critical eye your own games. For example, you lose a game and you end up first on your team. Most of the time it is your fault. You did not carry. Sounds controversial but in a game like that try to see what you could have done better and win the game for your team. Finding reasons to praise yourself feels good. I admit. Identifying your shortcomings and errors makes you a better player (and person I might say).

 

And to close my post I will say that this Forum is full of valuable information and excellent players (I am not one of them) . It is the best way to learn the game. However, it is also full of BS and BShitters (I hope I am not one of them either). It is your job to figure out who is who and what is what. With no intend to diminish the contribution of the other gentlemen that posted I will also add that @DFens_666 is one of the best players and one of the best teachers. A bit of bias should be expected on my side since he is a close friend. 

 

Good luck in your endeavours

Regards

Salt

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5 hours ago, Northern_Nightowl said:

I would like to have an exchange about DD tactics.

Lately, I became fond of flanking moves using my HSF Harekaze (or the Benson, my other high tiered DD) and using, maybe abusing, stealth torping.

Besides own attacks, providing vision for my team is also a concern. But this may come situationally as a secondary aim after getting into the enemy's back.

 

Some hours ago, I played a domination game with my Harekaze on Ice Islands in Silver Ranked.

There, I flanked to the right and down column 8, getting at first B cap assisted and then one, C,  unassisted. Meanwhile, the remainder of my team fought an attrition battle around the third cap, where all Reds went too; minus an Alsace that I found in C cap, before it drove out of it and engaged some teammates from the middle of the map.

One of these teammates criticised me for not having done anything useful. Indeed, I did not spot much, more or less only said Alsace, and had not much occasions to employ my weapons until the end (I came out with 3 torpedo hits on the French BB, roundabout 30k damage and was nearly sunk: 54 HP remained). We won (second place for me).

Meanwhile, I got a bit unsure. Did I exaggerate in trying to maximize the strengths of my ship (stealth, good fishes) while playing too "safe" (going for safe cap points, avoiding the hottest actions), as I am quite aware that my DD is fragile for its tier? Was the critique "You did nothing" vindicated or doesn't it matter HOW you do it, as long as it's a win? How may you recognize the border between playing too cowardly and being a kind of parasite to your team and wisely keeping your force and health points in reserve for a later game phase?

 

For reference, the replay is appended. I'm looking forward for comments!

 

Regards, Nightowl

 

20210619_015041_PJSD708-HSF-Harekaze_18_NE_ice_islands.wowsreplay

 

i wont watch the replay now, but: harekaze on 100mm's is a monster! hp low lol? well, get theirs down :Smile_trollface:....

 

but, step by step:

 

u did cap 2 caps, securing a pts lead, right?wp! in the end more worthy than 1 dead ship, at least mostly for match progression (if not all die ofc rofl)... i just wonder why if u did use ur guns, did u?! ok now 54hp is nothing to risk in the end ofc lol, but on ifhe these things hurt!

 

anyways.... #lemmingslose, caps secured, it's a win: dont get bothered ;)....

 

 

 

*the guns is the main armament imo, not the torps ;).... actually it's both lol. my tiop would be to build it for both.

2cts

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9 minutes ago, Saltface said:

[...](I hope I am not one of them either)[...]

-hope-7156.jpg

 

Spoiler

SORRY... i just..... could............not........................resist......................................................

Spoiler

guess i'm a hopeless case :Smile_sad:

 

:Smile_trollface::Smile_child::Smile_hiding:

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7 minutes ago, MrWastee said:

 SORRY... i just..... could............not........................resist......................................................

 

1230133778_flat750x075f-pad750x1000f8f8f8_u2.thumb.jpg.0710bf0c23e7ec60a18b5501c6de71ed.jpg

You are excused

 

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