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Gebbly

Lightening to Jutland, what to expect?

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I've been having fun in the Jervis and the Lightning was even better managing to get its detection down to 5.5km and torp range of 8km I actually had a chance of getting some decent torp hits.

 

However I am just looking at what to expect with the Jutland. At first glance it has 1 less gun than the Lightning with the same stats except 113mm instead of 120mm guns. Will the Jutland feel like a bit of a low point between Lightening and Daring?

 

I also notice its torpedo range increases from 8km to 10km. Does the playstyle change to more of a torpedo boat away from gun boat?

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You can play them in both roles, but the guns are much stronger.

Their AP will devastate enemy DD.

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In the B hull you will get 6 guns.

Jutland is a bit like Lightning but with heal.

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First thing to learn in a Jutland is to switch from HE to AP on regular basis, which is unusual for DDs.

 

Jutland only has a mediocre HE DPS. To compete in DD knife fights you need to switch to AP. Jutland have improved AP angles, mean that bouncing starts at slightly higher angles as usual. It also features short fuse AP, so you will almost never overpen.

 

T9 has some strong gun boats which you should not engage with out support or without clear advantage.

 

Don't run IFHE on Jutland.

 

 

 

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Jutland and Daring are DD killers. Amazing DPM with AP, hydro for self protection and heals. These are pure gunboats for me.

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Jutland is fine.


The DPM is slightly better than the Lightning's, provided you take the reload module. You get a (bad) heal as an uninspired balancing buff.

Imho torpedoboats at T9-10 need at least 10.5 km on the torps, to outrange some radars: Yugumo and Shima are okay, but their main asset is the warhead, not the range. Fletcher is merely there, Gearing and Halland have very comfortable range, allowing you to often ignore their DD screen and hit them even if they're in second or third line. The Jutland offers no such luxuries.

 

Imho the entire British DD branch is about cap contesting.

You have decent concealment, good DPM, a defensive hydro and fast smokes to frustrate CVs.

The Jutland makes no exception. She's a meh ship if you play her for the torps or open-water gunboating (terrible shell trajectories), but she's a great ship if you like playing the objective, using islands and smokes, hunting DDs, etc.

 

As a small advice, I wouldn't bother with the range upgrade: it makes you easier to detect, the shells are hard to use so far away, and you have plenty of smokes, so if the enemies get out of range you should just follow them and smoke up again a few km down the road. Save the xp for the grind towards the Daring.

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Vor 6 Stunden, 159Hunter sagte:

Jutland and Daring are DD killers. Amazing DPM with AP, hydro for self protection and heals. These are pure gunboats for me.

DPS of the Jutland s ok, but not amazing. Half of the T9 DDs have better HE DPS. Daring DPS is much better though.

 

image.png.fccd6bb74a21a7193fb62a2ff0abfbfc.png

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1 hour ago, xe_N_on said:

DPS of the Jutland s ok, but not amazing. Half of the T9 DDs have better HE DPS. Daring DPS is much better though.

Where did I mention HE DPM?

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15 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

Their AP will devastate enemy DD.

I personally tend to stick to HE in most cases.

The problem with AP is that, while good, only select DDs will take consistent full pens and not a majority of overpens (like Shima usually does, especially at close ranges).

Even against those that tend to take a majority of full pens (like Gearing), some overpens may cause the actual AP dpm to fall close to the HE dpm, and when the dpm numbers are roughly equal, I personally prefer the consistency from HE.

And if you're late in switching to HE (when he starts angling) you might even throw away a full salvo for ricochets.

 

Not saying AP is bad, but it's not as superior as some make it out to be either and takes a rather experienced captain to get (often) a rather minor boost out of.

The most consistent use of AP for me has so far been cruisers, especially CLs where you can citadel them good at closer ranges, whereas the HE would shatter.

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14 hours ago, xe_N_on said:

 It also features short fuse AP, so you will almost never overpen.

 

Not true.

Tested for this in a training room, and some DDs take almost all overpens, while some take partial overpens.

The first case warrants use of HE exclusively, in the second case HE often shows to have close to the same dpm of AP.

Personally I mostly just stick to HE except against boats like Gearing, Khaba and Emilio, and it has been working out great for me so far.

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51 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

Not saying AP is bad, but it's not as superior as some make it out to be either and takes a rather experienced captain to get (often) a rather minor boost out of.

The difference is night and day. I never noticed a significant number of overpens, but I noticed a significant difference in damage output.

 

Spoiler
  • Same amount of shells fired
  • Nearly same amount of hits

Note the damage difference:

106534_999_1599774309.jpg

https://replayswows.com/replay/106534#stats

 

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54 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

The difference is night and day. I never noticed a significant number of overpens, but I noticed a significant difference in damage output.

 

  Hide contents
  • Same amount of shells fired
  • Nearly same amount of hits

 

Not necessarily disputing your experience, but I cant tell from your screenshot where the damage difference was done.

The low HE damage could have been from shatters on cruiser/BB plating for all I know.

 

My training room tests so far have shown that some DDs eat consistent overpens, which were enough to make me primarily use HE against them (with some exceptions).

Against other targets (esp cruisers) I like to use AP a lot.

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Vor 16 Stunden, xe_N_on sagte:

Jutland only has a mediocre HE DPS. To compete in DD knife fights you need to switch to AP. Jutland have improved AP angles, mean that bouncing starts at slightly higher angles as usual. It also features short fuse AP, so you will almost never overpen.

 

Okay okay, some facts:

Short fuse is a bit misleading with respect to DDs. All DDs with a caliber below and including 127mm have the "short" fuse of 0.01s. So it is always advantageous to shoot AP if you can catch a DD broadside. In fact, from a statistical point of view, the strongest AP DD at T9 against a flat(!) DD broadside is Kitakaze, because the overpen threshold is only 17mm (due to the low caliber of 100mm) which does not exist in the game. 

Jutland and Daring have a 19mm threshold, but there is chance of getting overpens when 0.01s of arming time is not enough (i.e. bow section). However, due to the improved angels, AP shells can fly longer through the ship which increases the chance of the in-hull explosion as the DD turns in/away. Of course, this is expectable during an infight, making these ships and their AP very strong. 

When you hit the DD superstructure, you will always get overpens (13mm), but you will get full penetrations at a BB superstructure (19mm, and if fused time will be enough).

 

Another aspect that has to be mentioned is that AP is particularly strong against French DDs because only HE saturates their midsection.

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43 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

Not necessarily disputing your experience, but I cant tell from your screenshot where the damage difference was done.

The low HE damage could have been from shatters on cruiser/BB plating for all I know.

 

My training room tests so far have shown that some DDs eat consistent overpens, which were enough to make me primarily use HE against them (with some exceptions).

Against other targets (esp cruisers) I like to use AP a lot.

Which DD? How did you test?

DD shootouts do not happen at a fixed distance and angling.

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2 godziny temu, Hirohito napisał:

 

The problem with AP is that, while good, only select DDs will take consistent full pens and not a majority of overpens.

 

 

And Jutland (as well as Daring) is one of those select DDs that do not overpen other DDs. Additionally Jutland/Daring has advantage over Akizuki/Kitakaze/Harugumo of improved AP penetration angles.

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18 hours ago, Gebbly said:

However I am just looking at what to expect with the Jutland. At first glance it has 1 less gun than the Lightning with the same stats except 113mm instead of 120mm guns.

You get tge 6th gun back with the Hull upgrade

 

Expect using lots of AP on other DDs with devastating results

 

Daring is the same only even more powerful ofc

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30 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Which DD? How did you test?

DD shootouts do not happen at a fixed distance and angling.

I understand that, so my testing should be taken with a grain of salt of course.

I cant remember all the outcomes, but for Shima I remember getting a lot of overpens on relatively flat broadside at about the range of 4-6 kms, which was rather surprising.

Had a "live" encounter with a Gearing yesterday that also saw overpens on about every 1/4th to 1/3rd of the shells when duking it out at about 5kms.

He was slightly angled as well which should see a reduction in overpens compared to a flat broadside.

Even in the videos on youtube (like Kuro) I often hear about the advantages of AP, but when I see the actual hits they score they very often consist of something like like 1-2 overpens, 3 hits and 1 ricochet, and frequently they dont always manage to switch to HE in time when they suddenly angle, causing at least 1 sub-par volley with several ricochets (which is my experience as well, in an actual knife fight).

All in all I just have very mixed personal feelings about always sticking to AP, especially when Daring/Jutland HE is so potent already.

If others have different experiences, of course, more power to them.

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43 minutes ago, Montrala said:

 

And Jutland (as well as Daring) is one of those select DDs that do not overpen other DDs.

But they do overpen, at least from my own testing in training rooms, recent knife fights and watching good youtubers use AP.

Not always of course, but enough to often significantly shorten the gaps between the ammo choice dpm.

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1 minute ago, Hirohito said:

Even in the videos on youtube (like Kuro) I often hear about the advantages of AP, but when I see the actual hits they score they very often consist of something like like 1-2 overpens, 3 hits and 1 ricochet, and frequently they dont always manage to switch to HE in time when they suddenly angle, causing at least 1 sub-par volley with several ricochets (which is my experience as well, in an actual knife fight). 

 

I agree. Ive tried AP aswell, and sometimes you get 1-2 overpens which probably ends up dealing less damage than an HE salvo would have dealt. And then when the DD is angling you might get a very bad salvo, so overall you might have equal or even slightly better damge output using HE, unless the DD is straighlining, preferably at a slight angle.

And you tend to break more modules using HE aswell, which isnt bad either. Having a DD lose a gun is always a good thing in a knife-fight.

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9 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

All in all I just have very mixed personal feelings about always sticking to AP, especially when Daring/Jutland HE is so potent already.

If others have different experiences, of course, more power to them.

You are not supposed to always stick to AP.

While they have improved riccochet angles, the shells still bounce from heavily angled DD and one should change to HE.

But in all other situations I use AP and it works great.

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3 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

And you tend to break more modules using HE aswell, which isnt bad either. Having a DD lose a gun is always a good thing in a knife-fight.

I wasnt gonna go into this part specifically, but I agree.

Often an early fire or busted engine causes the DD to DCP early, which can cause another and much more serious permanent engine/turret bust or permafire as he tries to kite out.

Can be quite significant against something like a (granted, bad) Shima trying to disengage, especially considering how it helps supporting cruisers to fire on him as well.

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2 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

You are not supposed to always stick to AP.

While they have improved riccochet angles, the shells still bounce from heavily angled DD and one should change to HE.

But in all other situations I use AP and it works great.

I didnt mean that literally. :-)

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Just now, DFens_666 said:

And you tend to break more modules using HE aswell, which isnt bad either. Having a DD lose a gun is always a good thing in a knife-fight

I agree, and there's the issue of fires as well: some DD captains will repair after losing any module, so HE might permafire them and keep them spotted for longer (if they didn't fire back at all, that is).

 

Imho AP is definitely the way to go against broadsiding cruisers and BBs, but against DDs one is often too busy with aiming, looking around, avoiding torps, etc., to make the switch at the right time.

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