Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 1 battles to post in this section.
telxinos

HELLENIC NAVY-GREEK NAVY More than 4,500 years of naval ethos and seamanship.

22 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

[GBONM]
Players
73 posts
36,303 battles

The history of the Hellenic Navy does not have a concrete point of beginning . Its roots are lost in the depths of centuries of the history of mankind. In a geographical area of which any part is no more than 150 km.away from the sea, the Greeks developed from the Prehistoric Age societies which were coastal in their majority. There, they learned to exploit the marine resources and loved the sea. Automatically, the need for protecting and further spreading the cultures that they had developed was created, having as a result the progressive development of the first organized units of the Hellenic Navy.

 

With more than 4,500 thousand years of naval ethos and seamanship, from the Trojan War to the Battle of Salamis and from the Battle of Lepanto to the Battles of World War II, illustrious chapters of global history have been written in Greek waters. Civilization, democracy, Western philosophy, Western literature, historiography, political science, major scientific and mathematical principles, Western drama and the Olympic Games were created in this area and transmitted to the whole world through these waters. Empires have risen and fallen around these waters. Greek sailors have proved their gallantry time and time again and participated in these world-changing events. Greece, a country with such a prominent place in world history should also have a place in World of Warships through its navy.

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CATS]
Players
31,115 posts
15,725 battles

And they will.

But this is not World of Triremes and the greek Navy was a bit less active during the times that are depicted in this game. Add the size of the greek playerbase and you know why WG takes their time.

  • Cool 1
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[GBONM]
Players
73 posts
36,303 battles
5 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

And they will.

But this is not World of Triremes and the greek Navy was a bit less active during the times that are depicted in this game. Add the size of the greek playerbase and you know why WG takes their time.

less active in what period u refer and how ?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[DIV21]
Beta Tester
11 posts
9,675 battles

 4500 years of naval history and not only that, it hurts!!!

Amazing Video!!!! Its time for some people to start reading History again !

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
5,448 posts
2,939 battles
2 hours ago, telxinos said:

less active in what period u refer and how ?

 

Between 1930 and 1945, the greek navy operated 2 pre-dreadnought more than 20 years old in 1930, one armored cruiser and one light cruiser more than 15 years old in 1930, and 16 destroyers - 4 of which dated back more than 20 years and displaced less than 400t, an additional 4 being 15 years old in 1930, and 2 more being lent british destroyers.

There, you have the integrality of major greek surface combattant between 1930 and 1945. In 1940, the combined displacement of all vessels in service within the Greek navy was about 44300t. By comparison, the dutch navy, which was the 10th largest in terms of combined displacement at the time, reached about 118000t.

 

During this time period, the greek navy wasn't very significant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[GBONM]
Players
73 posts
36,303 battles
4 hours ago, LastButterfly said:

 

Between 1930 and 1945, the greek navy operated 2 pre-dreadnought more than 20 years old in 1930, one armored cruiser and one light cruiser more than 15 years old in 1930, and 16 destroyers - 4 of which dated back more than 20 years and displaced less than 400t, an additional 4 being 15 years old in 1930, and 2 more being lent british destroyers.

There, you have the integrality of major greek surface combattant between 1930 and 1945. In 1940, the combined displacement of all vessels in service within the Greek navy was about 44300t. By comparison, the dutch navy, which was the 10th largest in terms of combined displacement at the time, reached about 118000t.

 

During this time period, the greek navy wasn't very significant.

Greek navy was the second largest ally in Mediterranean operations after 1941 took part in almost all operations during that period with 44 ships he was not a colonial power like Dutch or other navy's who did not took part in WWII or was inactive but they have a place in the game .

 As an indicative example, it should be noted that, in 1943, out of the 41 warships conducting escort missions, 27 were British, 11 Hellenic and only 3 French. Moreover, Hellenic Fleet units participated in the great allied landing in Normandy on 6 June 1944, the greatest combined allied operation of all times. Hellenic ships operated in the Atlantic from England to Cape Town and from Gibraltar to the Azores. The total distance covered by the Hellenic Fleet during those war operations was approximately 2 million nautical miles within about 185,000 navigable hours. This means that each ship covered an average of 20,000 nautical miles, which is 80% of the perimeter of the Earth, under war conditions. The Hellenic Merchant Marine provided many ships for those death convoys and proved a valuable caterer for the Allies, while during the Italian invasion against Greece, its ship, protected by the Hellenic Navy, safely transported almost 80% of the war materials and the troops to ports of destinations near the front.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
131 posts
124 battles

All of that is laudable but ultimately World of Warships is a game concerning large combat vessels of 20th century. In that regard the amount of ships Greece can contribute to the WoWS is very limited and will likely be released in one of Pan-EU tech tree lines. Regarding notable Greek ships; Averoff is unique in a way that severely works against itself as it has many secondaries and few main batteries. Maybe Salamis as a what-if tier 5 battlecruiser and Ydra or Vasilesf class destroyers for mid tiers. Unfortunately that is all there is to it. High tier slots in Pan-EU lines should be reserved for countries like the Spain, Sweden or Netherlands with more interesting ships. 

 

Oh and I cant help but add that it is certainly not without a degree of irony and sadness with how the connection between Oriental empires and their ex-possessions are retained especially in matters of romanticism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[GBONM]
Players
73 posts
36,303 battles
3 hours ago, Pururut said:

All of that is laudable but ultimately World of Warships is a game concerning large combat vessels of 20th century. In that regard the amount of ships Greece can contribute to the WoWS is very limited and will likely be released in one of Pan-EU tech tree lines. Regarding notable Greek ships; Averoff is unique in a way that severely works against itself as it has many secondaries and few main batteries. Maybe Salamis as a what-if tier 5 battlecruiser and Ydra or Vasilesf class destroyers for mid tiers. Unfortunately that is all there is to it. High tier slots in Pan-EU lines should be reserved for countries like the Spain, Sweden or Netherlands with more interesting ships. 

 

Oh and I cant help but add that it is certainly not without a degree of irony and sadness with how the connection between Oriental empires and their ex-possessions are retained especially in matters of romanticism.

The connection is unavoidable Greece from the Persian wars until WWII always fights outnumber but in the most cases is the winner and not only that other countries are benefit from this victories . In battle of Salamis for example  some historians argue that if the Greeks had lost at Salamis, the ensuing conquest of Greece by the Persians would have effectively stifled the growth of Western Civilization as we know it. This view is based on the premise that much of modern Western society, such as philosophy, science, personal freedom and democracy are rooted in the legacy of Ancient Greece. The same apply in WWII . Here is a characteristic excerpt from the speech of the British parliamentary secretary at the Ministry of War Transport (including Shipping) Philip Noel Baker, on 28 October 1942, for the first anniversary of «OCHI» (the Greek «NO» to the Italians): «Had Greece succumbed without a fight to the Axis attacks, no one would have had the right to blame it. I say this while we knew then and we know even better now, what it would have meant for us if Greece had surrendered without a fight. The Axis would then be able to develop lines of communication throughout Europe and its planes and submarines would then dominate across the Mediterranean from the Greek coasts. Our defense in Egypt would be much harder. Syria, Iraq and Cyprus would be taken over by the Axis and Turkey would also be engulfed. The oilfields of the Middle East would be at the disposal of the Axis. The rear door of Caucasus would be wide open and we would lose the entire Middle East and perhaps the war. Thanks to the Greek defense we were given the time first to fend off and then crash the Italian army, which moved from Libya against Egypt, to clear up the Red Sea from enemy ships, to move the American aid to the Middle East and to overcome the hostile threat against it. The results of the Greek defense are even felt today in our struggles. If Stalingrad and the Caucasus stand up today to the German pressure, it is not unrelated to the Greek defense, by which we are benefiting even two entire years later. The world really has no right to forget the feats of the Greeks at this historic moment». For the ships now its a game everything can happen we have a Pan-EU line of Swedish destroyers why not a Greek or Netherlands or any other country .  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CATS]
Players
31,115 posts
15,725 battles

As I said, the ships from the battle of Salamis are not part of the game. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[GBONM]
Players
73 posts
36,303 battles
3 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

As I said, the ships from the battle of Salamis are not part of the game. 

Who said that ships from battle of Salamis have part in this game ... But history have and when u have history like Greek Navy and not many navy's have that i know its difficult to understand what is all about so triremes do not have place in the game  but Greek ships have among other navy's .    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CATS]
Players
31,115 posts
15,725 battles
7 minutes ago, telxinos said:

Who said that ships from battle of Salamis have part in this game ... But history have and when u have history like Greek Navy and not many navy's have that i know its difficult to understand what is all about so triremes do not have place in the game  but Greek ships have among other navy's .    

That history is also not part of the game and therefore not a deciding factor for WG.

 

Important for WG is:

  • popularity among the playerbase
  • sufficient ships for a tech tree
  • availability of the necessary data

It should be obvious that the greek ships rank rather low on the first two points, but some of them will get implemented one day. No worries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[GBONM]
Players
73 posts
36,303 battles

Popularity has nothing to do we see ships many time in the game who no one play with them . There are sufficient ships for a dd line at least and all data is available even for paper ships . But still we have ships in the game who they did not have even the blueprints but WG made them  . It is just a decision WG must take  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CATS]
Players
31,115 posts
15,725 battles
21 minutes ago, telxinos said:

Popularity has nothing to do we see ships many time in the game who no one play with them . There are sufficient ships for a dd line at least and all data is available even for paper ships . But still we have ships in the game who they did not have even the blueprints but WG made them  . It is just a decision WG must take  

But it does. WG wants to earn money.

And no, there are not enough greek ships for a DD line, unless you take copy&paste ships. And a techtree that has only the option for one line, is not the best idea. Expect the greek ships in the EU tree and not a greek tree.

Fantasyships are just fillers for lines.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
5,448 posts
2,939 battles
43 minutes ago, telxinos said:

There are sufficient ships for a dd line

 

Erm, no. That's impossible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[GBONM]
Players
73 posts
36,303 battles

You copy paste ships like other ships are copy paste in game but Greek ships had mods that make them unique from the sister ships in other navy's and yes WG will earn money from that i think many will buy Greek ships and why not  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
5,448 posts
2,939 battles
1 minute ago, telxinos said:

You copy paste ships like other ships are copy paste in game but Greek ships had mods that make them unique from the sister ships in other navy's

 

No, even then, the branch would be catastrophic, IF it can be made at all. You simply cannot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[GBONM]
Players
73 posts
36,303 battles
1 minute ago, LastButterfly said:

 

No, even then, the branch would be catastrophic, IF it can be made at all. You simply cannot.

Ok explain why but with facts 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
5,448 posts
2,939 battles
7 hours ago, telxinos said:

Ok explain why but with facts 

 

 

Why do I have to do your job ? You're the one advocating for a Greek DD branch. Why don't you make one to show me that it's possible...

 

Excluding Kimon, which are sold DDG, and Themistoklis and Miaoulis, which are FRAM II and I Gearings and Sumner thus mostly beyond the scope of the game, Greece has operated the following classes of destroyers :

 

Three classes that are by any means too old, small, or weak to pretend being used in the game -

-Niki, a 1906 class displacing 350t full and armed with 2 76mm and 2 57mm, well below the weakest vessel in the game

-Thyella, a 1907 class displacing 380t full and armed similarly

-Nea Genea, a 1912 class displacing less than 700t full andarmed with 2 88mm, which barely qualifies as a viable tier 2 (for comparison, Japan's Sakura class, present in the game through the premium Tachibana, is a 830t displacing vessel aremed with 5 76mm guns and similar torpedo weaponery and speed ; and it's one of the weakest technically speaking).

 

Following them :

-Aetos, a 1912 design boasting 1175t displacement and 4 102mm plus 4 533TT, steaming at a maximum of 32kn, making it hold the comparison with tier II destroyers such as V-25 (which has smaller guns but more torpedoes and speed) or Sampson (a similarly armed, slower vessel with much more torpedo power and displacing more)

-Hydra, a 1932 class of 2050t armed with 4 120mm and 2*3 533mm, capable of 38kn, by all means a respectable vessel comparable to tier 5 or 6 ones such as Mahan or Gnevny.

-Vasilefs Georgios I, a 1938 class of 1850t armed with 4 128mm and 2*4 533mm, plus a respectable AA suite and speed of 36kn, one again a very decent vessel for high-mid tiers such as 6, 7, or possibly 8 if stretched

 

Add to these the cancelled or never delivered classes :

-Kriti, a class ordered by greece in 1914 of 1200 tonners armed with 3*1 102mm and 2*2 533, requisitionned by the UK and thus never delivered

-S35 and S36, two S-31 class german vessels ordered by greece around the same time, of 970t  armed by 3*1 88 and 2*2 500, once again, not delivered

which are hardly worth more than tier II

 

And the foreign vessels leased, bought, or taken for war reparations :

-Doxa, a leased Boykiy class torpedo boat (1907) of 530t making 26kn - no comments

-Smyrni, an even smaller Austro-Hungarian TB of the same epoch, displacing less than 450t in full

-Salamis, a british B-class destroyer - thus somewhat close to the in-game tier V Acasta destroyer - but armed with only 3 120mm and 1*4 533mm TT, jeoparadizing its validity at such a rank.

-Navarinon, a british E-class destroyer - this time more analogous to the tier VI Icarus, tho once again deprived of a torpedo tube

-Doxa and Niki, US Gleaves class received post-war, analogous to Benson, but deprived of all torpedo armament and one main gun in favor of anti-air

-Sfendoni, US Fletcher class received pos-war (at the earliest in 1959), although overall close enough to the original Fletcher in the case of Thyella and Navarino - still deprived of half of its torpedo armament

 

The most moderns TBs operated by greece being Austro-Hungarian 250 tonners, you have there all the relevant destroyer-tier classes operated or ordered by Greece in the 20th century. Allow me also to bypass entirely the leased Hunt-class escorts for their inability to reach even 30kn mostly disqualifies them. Allow me to sum up :

 

Spoiler
 

Eligibility

Kimon

NO - too modern

Themistoklis

NO - too modern

Miaoulis

NO - too modern

Niki

NO - below tier 2

Thyella

NO - below tier 2

Nea Genea

Hardly viable tier 2

Aetos

tier ~2

Hydra

tier 5~6

Vasilefs Georgis

tier 6~8

Kriti

tier ~2

S35

tier ~2

Non-Greek vessels :

 

Doxa

NO - below tier 2

Smyrni

NO - below tier 2

Salamis

tier ~5

Navarinon

tier 5~6

Doxa & Niki

tier 7~8 (debatable)

Sfendoni

tier ~9

 

Are the problems clear enough ?

To plug the holes around tier 3/4, you need to bumb lower-tier valid vessels up and upper-tier ones down, destroying all form of possible balance.

The best I can do with it is :

 

Spoiler
GRE Main battery TTs Top speed Auxiliary battery & MG Standard disp & dimension
Nea Genea 2*88 4*1 500 32 N/A 569
70.2*7.6
Aetos 4*1 102 4*1 533 32 N/A 980
86.9*8.45
Salamis 3*1 120 1*4 533 35.25 1*1 76
2*2 + 2*1 20
1360
95.1*9.83
Navarinon 4*1 120 1*4 533 36 1*1 76
2*2 + 2*1 20
1405
97*10.1
Hydra 4*1 120 2*3 533 38 3*1 40 1389
92.4*9.75
Vasilefs Georgios 4*1 128 2*4 533 36 4*1 37
2*4 12.7
1350
95.1*10.2
Doxa/Niki 4*1 127 N/A 35 2*4 + 2*2 40
2*2 20
1838
103.9*11
Sfendoni (Thyella) 5*1 127 1*5 533 38 2*4 + 1*2 40 2325
112.5*12.1
???          

 

-Nea Genea and Aetos are most likely far too weak at their respective tiers, with Genea needing to be removed and Aetos lowered to tier III, which cannot be done lest there are no viable candidate for TIII. Utilizing Kriti can replace Nea Genea at tier II but does not solve the TIII problem. Utilizing a Hunt-class could solve it in part, but create some more problem - hf with a 27kn vessel at tier III -, along with making this already dubiously greek branch even less Greek by introducing yet another US/UK vessel.

-Salamis at tier 4 is very debatable in itself, being still too close to IG's Acasta in spite of the loss of a main gun and torpedo launcher. Navarinon at tier 5 has the same problem.
-Hydra should not be above Navarinon, and they could be swapped, which would result in increased break with TT progression and separation of the two british vessels, making the branch progression absolutely chaotic.

-Doxa/Niki being a 1-gun less Benson with no torps is not only debatable at tier 8, but in the branch altogether, as it creates a complete gameplay break with the rest of the branch.

-There is no viable tier X. You could just put a sumner here and call it a day, even if Greece never, as far as I am aware, operated one that was not modernized in at least FRAM I ; but that would mean the branch would be made of 5 US/UK, so we might aswell stop calling it a greek branch.

 

Naturally I could have overlooked things. By all means, if you think I have, please try and make a better branch of greek destroyers.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CATS]
Players
31,115 posts
15,725 battles
1 hour ago, telxinos said:

You copy paste ships like other ships are copy paste in game but Greek ships had mods that make them unique from the sister ships in other navy's and yes WG will earn money from that i think many will buy Greek ships and why not  

Many? Greeks? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[R3B3L]
Players
1,433 posts
32,719 battles
20 hours ago, LastButterfly said:

Why do I have to do your job ?

I think you did a great job there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[GBONM]
Players
73 posts
36,303 battles
On 4/4/2021 at 2:14 PM, LastButterfly said:

Why do I have to do your job

You did not do my job . In the video has a line of dds  we did not assign any tier we leave that in WG i think they know better what to do with them if they want to add them in the game . For the tier 9 and 10 of the line i do not think will be a problem we have already in the game ships from 1951 and was decommission in 1991 . I must admit u did a grate job !!! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
5,448 posts
2,939 battles
6 hours ago, telxinos said:

I must admit u did a grate job !!! 

 

Erm... thanks. Although I'm not sure you grasped the fact that I demonstrated how a greek destroyer branch would be terrible and cannot be correctly made under the game's restrictions.

 

Just so you understand :

6 hours ago, telxinos said:

For the tier 9 and 10 of the line i do not think will be a problem we have already in the game ships from 1951 and was decommission in 1991 .

 

The date is not the problem. I included Fletcher-sold Thyella in the tree in spite of the fact it was sold in 1962 and stricken in 1981. The problem is the equipment.

Kimon are sold Charles F. Adams-class DDG. They carry missiles as a primary mean of offense, and missiles are not included in the game. Aside from the missiles, they are 30ish knots capable heavy vessels with in terms of gunnery only 2 127mm, and no surface torpedoes to speak of. This is standard for what's nowadays called a "destroyer", but in the game, they would amount as useless.

The FRAM I and II Gearing and Sumner, sold under the names Themistoklis and Miaoulis classes respectively, bear the same problem. They have been deprived of all torpedo armement, their guns exist primarily for anti-air purposes, and the modernizations included much electronics, which won't appear in the game, and sacrificed mobility, which will appear in the game. They have no place there, in spite of the fact that some are in FRAM I and thus retain their 3*2 127mm main battery. They are just too big, sluggish, and otherwise deprived of anything remotely interesting or useful in game terms.

 

These classes eliminated, there are litterally NO other picks for a TX destroyer, considering Greece has not operated any other classes than the three above after the sold Fletcher Sfendoni class. The problem isn't the date - there is litterally no vessel to choose from.

 

6 hours ago, telxinos said:

we did not assign any tier we leave that in WG i think they know better

 

No, assigning tiers is up to debate, but a tier fork for each vessel is not that difficult of a thing to make, and it makes holes in potential trees blatant. I'm confident you didn't assign tiers not because "WG knows better" but because had you tryied, you'd have realized it was impossible without insulting logic and common sense.

 

Greece cannot have a viable destroyer branch on its own.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×