Aiming over hill

[Lochys]

I sent this as bug report but i was told that it is suggestion so im supposed to send it to this forum. So here i go.

Im experiencing this issue for a long time and finally i decided to make ticket coz if it is not bug it is definitely wrong design that need to be addressed.
I made a schematic picture to describe it better.
When I (green ship) am trying to aim at enemy ship (red one) that is behind some cover (black island) i cannot see that ship so my cursor is pointing to a spot on that island. Problem is, that sometimes when i press fire, granades follow yellow trajectory and sometimes they follow purple one. I was trying to figure out some rule for when it goes yellow and when purple but i was not successful.
I belive that algorithm that choose between yellow and purple trajectory is bad, coz i rarely want to sink islands.

 

EDIT:

I would like to expand this for situations when the enemy ship is not visible but i know it is there, coz it was sailing there. I want to hit place behind the island but when the ship is not visible granades always follow purple trajectory. That is simply bad. It should always calculate impact point where grey arrow hit a ship or sea surface (in this order).

 

EDIT2:

Here is link to video from which hopefully it is clear what am i talking about. 

[Harry1987]

1. you must be far enough away from high islands that the trajectory is high enough to get over it

2. if you don´t have the enemy ship locked in("X") your ship aims with the reticule and you will shoot the tip like with the purple line.

 

works fine for me that way

[Lochys]

1. you must be far enough away from high islands that the trajectory is high enough to get over it

2. if you don´t have the enemy ship locked in("X") your ship aims with the reticule and you will shoot the tip like with the purple line.

 

works fine for me that way

 

ad1) ofcourse, im not talking about scenario i cannot shoot over hill

ad2) from start i thought that is the case, but it is not. I had several times situation when i had enemy ship locked in and one salvo followed purple trajectory immediately second salvo followed yellow. Without changing anything, that is the most confusing part of it. It is unpredictable which trajectory the granades will follow.

[Ascender]

Locking the ship doesn't help me avoid this behaviour. Same problem, lock the ship, aim as if aiming for the ship but with the hill in the cam (even only the very summit will do) and sometimes they go where I want them and sometimes they don't....

[Karck]

+1 For this Topic. This is very annoying. And i really would like to fire over some objects.

[G01ngToxicCommand0]

Yes the problem is that the player have no control of superelevation of the guns and the guns always shoot where the target reticle is pointed at so when the reticle points at at hill the autoaim automatically adjust the range to the hill's - the same bad design is in WoT as well where autoaim lead to automisses if the reticle accidently hits som object either closer or further than the intended target. Coincidently the autoaim function is the primary cause of the map designs and detection system because when the players always have 100% accurate range the game have to balance the increased hit percentage by making it harder to find targets and placing intervening terrain in order to reduce that. Not a very smart way to make a game but it is the way WG wants there games to be like despite the inherrent flaws and stupid gameplay it inevitably leads to. 

 

IMHO the game would have been far better if the automaim function was removed and rangefinding to be the job of the player themselves, this way the silly detection system could be removed and the whole system changed to where the players would have to use their own eyes to spot and engage the enemy without any clues of the enemy presence on the map and where the only way to lock a target in the gunsight would be to placeit manually on the target and then press 'lock target'. 

[Captain_Edwards]

Couple of points;

If you do not have a target locked on, you wont fire over the island in the way. By locking on you tell the guns to elevate for firing over it.

Different guns have different arcs, so while one ship can another one may not fire over the island

Ship angle is crucial. If you are fully broadside in most cases all shots will travel over a hill. If you are angled at all, some turrets wont be able to do so because the arc angle is different.

[Lochys]

Couple of points;

If you do not have a target locked on, you wont fire over the island in the way. By locking on you tell the guns to elevate for firing over it.

Different guns have different arcs, so while one ship can another one may not fire over the island

Ship angle is crucial. If you are fully broadside in most cases all shots will travel over a hill. If you are angled at all, some turrets wont be able to do so because the arc angle is different.

 

Brilliant but it does not solve my problem.

1a) It should be possible to fire over the island even if i dont see the ship (therefore it is not locked target)

1b) Simple locking the target unfortunatelly does not tell my guns to use yellow trajectory.

2) That is true, but it does not apply when i shoot full salvo into island and then after 4 sec (reload of US DD) sailing parallel to island another full salvo goes directly into island under very low elevation. You can recognise when you shoot with low and high elevation after you get some experience.

3) True again but again this is not the case just like my answer to point 2

[MadC4T]

As already said, when targeting a specific enemy ship, the aim will lead on to the enemy ship, while if you're "free aiming", the shells will hit at the same distance your aim is. 
But! Try considering three other factors: the distance of your ship from the island, the height of the mountain and your current gun's elevation. Based on this, you can (roughly) understand why sometimes the shells will fly over the islands, sometimes they won't.

 

- Personal experience: sometimes when I need to shoot behind an island, I use a little "trick" that consists in aiming at the enemy position, then aim outside the island's border and quickly aim back where the enemy ship is. This will make my shots hit the enemy about a good 90% of the times. If I am too close, the shells will always hit the island.

Hope to be helpful! 

[SnowWulF]

+1 for this thread.

 

Having also the problem that when I lock an enemy it sometimes just aimes at land.

 

Also I have seen some players using somewhat like an extreme high angle mod to see ships from nearly above, does this affect them as well?

[Lochys]

As already said, when targeting a specific enemy ship, the aim will lead on to the enemy ship, while if you're "free aiming", the shells will hit at the same distance your aim is. 

But! Try considering three other factors: the distance of your ship from the island, the height of the mountain and your current gun's elevation. Based on this, you can (roughly) understand why sometimes the shells will fly over the islands, sometimes they won't.

 

- Personal experience: sometimes when I need to shoot behind an island, I use a little "trick" that consists in aiming at the enemy position, then aim outside the island's border and quickly aim back where the enemy ship is. This will make my shots hit the enemy about a good 90% of the times. If I am too close, the shells will always hit the island.

Hope to be helpful! 

 

I have no idea what are you trying to say in first part of your post

As about second part of your post i am trying to use the same trick but hardly with that 90% success you describe. From my experience it is working in 50% cases (max). Anyway we should definitely not be forced to use "tricks" to complete such a simple tasks as shooting over hill.

[Wischmob_von_Eimer]

Couple of points;

If you do not have a target locked on, you wont fire over the island in the way. By locking on you tell the guns to elevate for firing over it.

Different guns have different arcs, so while one ship can another one may not fire over the island

Ship angle is crucial. If you are fully broadside in most cases all shots will travel over a hill. If you are angled at all, some turrets wont be able to do so because the arc angle is different.

 

This statement is false.

 

If you target a ship (crosshair above ship) and aim properly your shells will hit said ship.

 

If now your aiming spot moves about a small area of an island your turret crew will try their best to hit this island, especialy with a high firing arc, where you actually can not aim in the arc your shells will hit the enemy you have a problem.

 

I would love to high five my gunners, in the face, with a chair, for this [edited] aim.

 

 

And yes, it the same as WoT, where you aim at something, but as soon as it disappears your gunner tris his best to hit the hill at the other side of the map, a realy [edited] game mechanic.

[Vogel]

THe other alternative to this "[edited] game mechanic" is to manually correct for shell drop yourself. Not a poor mechanic anymore?

[Wischmob_von_Eimer]

How do you correct the shell drop mechanic yourself?

 

With the Artillery Aim Mod?

 

 

No, thanks, this thing should be viewed as exploit and handled as such.

[Vogel]

Please re-read what I wrote. I said that he alternative to the current mechanic (both in WoWs and WoT) is to have no auto-drop compensator, meaning that you (the player) has to aim over your target to hit.

[Lochys]

THe other alternative to this "retarded game mechanic" is to manually correct for shell drop yourself. Not a poor mechanic anymore?

 

How do you correct the shell drop mechanic yourself?

 

With the Artillery Aim Mod?

 

 

No, thanks, this thing should be viewed as exploit and handled as such.

 

Please re-read what I wrote. I said that he alternative to the current mechanic (both in WoWs and WoT) is to have no auto-drop compensator, meaning that you (the player) has to aim over your target to hit.

 

 

This statement is false.

 

If you target a ship (crosshair above ship) and aim properly your shells will hit said ship.

 

If now your aiming spot moves about a small area of an island your turret crew will try their best to hit this island, especialy with a high firing arc, where you actually can not aim in the arc your shells will hit the enemy you have a problem.

 

I would love to high five my gunners, in the face, with a chair, for this retarded aim.

 

 

And yes, it the same as WoT, where you aim at something, but as soon as it disappears your gunner tris his best to hit the hill at the other side of the map, a realy retarded game mechanic.

 

I already suggested solution, which can solve this problem (I belive).

 

 It should always calculate impact point where grey arrow hit a ship or sea surface (in this order).

 

 

[Dorsen]

The problem here is in the game mechanics. When do we ever have to hit anything on land? Never! So the aiming mechanics should automatically assume that we do NOT intend to hit an island/mountain/iceberg, but at a point at sea level beyond the island/mountain/iceberg, exactly where our reticle whould have pointed if the island/mountain/iceberg wasn't there at all.

[SnowWulF]

The problem here is in the game mechanics. When do we ever have to hit anything on land? Never! So the aiming mechanics should automatically assume that we do NOT intend to hit an island/mountain/iceberg, but at a point at sea level beyond the island/mountain/iceberg, exactly where our reticle whould have pointed if the island/mountain/iceberg wasn't there at all.

 

I think this is the best solution for this problem.

[Wischmob_von_Eimer]

The problem here is in the game mechanics. When do we ever have to hit anything on land? Never! So the aiming mechanics should automatically assume that we do NOT intend to hit an island/mountain/iceberg, but at a point at sea level beyond the island/mountain/iceberg, exactly where our reticle whould have pointed if the island/mountain/iceberg wasn't there at all.

 

Have your +1, you earned it ^^

[MadC4T]

The problem here is in the game mechanics. When do we ever have to hit anything on land? Never! So the aiming mechanics should automatically assume that we do NOT intend to hit an island/mountain/iceberg, but at a point at sea level beyond the island/mountain/iceberg, exactly where our reticle whould have pointed if the island/mountain/iceberg wasn't there at all.

 

Do you understand that a gun can't fire over a certain elevation arc?

Let's take for example WoT and the arty mechanics: why the english arties can hit over the rocks/houses/various covers, while arties like the Obj.261 shoots almost in a straight line?

 

 

I have no idea what are you trying to say in first part of your post

 

Just tell me what you don't understand, I'll try to explain it as simple as possible.

[Devantejah]

The problem here is in the game mechanics. When do we ever have to hit anything on land? Never! So the aiming mechanics should automatically assume that we do NOT intend to hit an island/mountain/iceberg, but at a point at sea level beyond the island/mountain/iceberg, exactly where our reticle whould have pointed if the island/mountain/iceberg wasn't there at all.

 

Assuming I have sufficient arc to shoot over, it already does this for me.

 

It's only when the guns can't arc the shells over the island to begin with I can't do it.

[SnowWulF]

 

Do you understand that a gun can't fire over a certain elevation arc?

Let's take for example WoT and the arty mechanics: why the english arties can hit over the rocks/houses/various covers, while arties like the Obj.261 shoots almost in a straight line?

 

 

We and he is talking about guns which do already shoot in the desired arc so we could hit the target behind the islands. Its just that the game is somewhat wacky when it comes to automatically adjust the angle when the target is behind an obstacle.

[Wischmob_von_Eimer]

There are guns with a higher firing arc then the point of view you can get. So it is possible to hit something behind an island by aiming at the sea behind the island while your pointer is on the surface of said island.

 

Your guns now do their best to hit the island and not the point of water behind it.

 

 

The picture in post 1 is clear in that regard, I have no idea how some guys still have no clue whats going on.

[Lochys]

As already said, when targeting a specific enemy ship, the aim will lead on to the enemy ship, while if you're "free aiming", the shells will hit at the same distance your aim is. 

But! Try considering three other factors: the distance of your ship from the island, the height of the mountain and your current gun's elevation. Based on this, you can (roughly) understand why sometimes the shells will fly over the islands, sometimes they won't.

 

^^^^^ This i dont understand ^^^^^

 

 

And again: Im talking about the situation when it is possible to achieve hit on a ship that is behind the island but for some reason some salvos goes over the island and some goes into the island. Mostly I play US DDs and they have really big fire rate. It happens that one salvo goes over, 4sec later it goes straight into the island, 4sec later it goes over again.

[Lochys]

I recorded and uploaded this video so finally everyone understand what i am talking about.

till 00:12 granades follow high trajectory to hit the enemy ship
from 00:14 they start follow low trajctory to hit island
....
from 00:40 till 00:50 they start follow high trajectory again
from 00:50 they again start follow low trajectory