A/B...Is there a secret only super-unicums know?

[arttuperkunas]

As per title. Mostly in low tier/mid tier, but sometimes also in ranked, someone will suggest going for center and flank rather than flank/flank. Is there some secret here that only super-unicums know? I always rage in chat about abandoning a flank, but is there a legitimate reason to do this sometimes? To me it seems that you're just giving the enemy free crossfires.

 

(note: the expected situation is that you do NOT know about enemy deployment, as this is usually done at the very beginning of the game, where no enemies are spotted)

[ThePurpleSmurf]

Some strategies depend on the map, the side of the map the team spawned, what ship composition the enemy team is and so on. Sometimes middle push right off the bat are good, sometimes flanking is better. Certain ships often have prefered positions, because it's the only position where it makes sense, so playing around this from the start is often a good idea. Example are radar cruisers usually always go to the same islands near caps. You don't have to see them, you just know they will go there in 99% of the cases. Flanking as a DD and pre-torping this position can yield an early advantage. Same as certain DDs, like IJN torp boats, they love to flank and this is where you usually find them and get a free kill as DD hunter. and so on and on. No need to be a unicum, just have some game knowledge and common sense.

[ColonelPete]

depends on the map, often it is not advisable to leave a flank

[Hirohito]

7 minutes ago, arttuperkunas said:

As per title. Mostly in low tier/mid tier, but sometimes also in ranked, someone will suggest going for center and flank rather than flank/flank. Is there some secret here that only super-unicums know? I always rage in chat about abandoning a flank, but is there a legitimate reason to do this sometimes? To me it seems that you're just giving the enemy free crossfires.

 

(note: the expected situation is that you do NOT know about enemy deployment, as this is usually done at the very beginning of the game, where no enemies are spotted)

You are correct in your assessment, you generally don't ever give a flank up from the very start.

Was this really a super unicum suggesting an A/B split (abandoning C), or just the usual random 50% or lower player?

You can generally "give up" a flank if you moved over there and saw the enemy massively outnumbering you, but that "giving up" means you start to kite back to slow down their push, not just outright abandoning it from the start..

[arttuperkunas]

3 minutes ago, ThePurpleSmurf said:

Some strategies depend on the map, the side of the map the team spawned, what ship composition the enemy team is and so on. Sometimes middle push right off the bat are good, sometimes flanking is better. Certain ships often have prefered positions, because it's the only position where it makes sense, so playing around this from the start is often a good idea. Example are radar cruisers usually always go to the same islands near caps. You don't have to see them, you just know they will go there in 99% of the cases. Flanking as a DD and pre-torping this position can yield an early advantage. Same as certain DDs, like IJN torp boats, they love to flank and this is where you usually find them and get a free kill as DD hunter. and so on and on. No need to be a unicum, just have some game knowledge and common sense.

I understand why individual ships take certain positions. Like a BB with long range and slow speed might usually want to take a central position. What I have trouble understanding is the whole team going, for example, A/B in a symmetrical, fairly open map - and I see this happen quite often. It seems to be a misplay to me, but there's plenty I don't know about the game so that's why I was asking for opinions from others.

[Hirohito]

3 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

depends on the map, often it is not advisable to leave a flank

Can't really recall any map on top of my head where you would abandon a particular flank outright though.

[arttuperkunas]

3 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

 

Was this really a super unicum suggesting an A/B split (abandoning C), or just the usual random 50% or lower player?
 

No, it was just a clickbait title :). Or rather, I don't know/remember the stats or performance of the people who suggest these strategies.

[Hirohito]

2 minutes ago, arttuperkunas said:

No, it was just a clickbait title :).

Then just don't follow the advice, it usually comes from someone around the 50% mark or lower.
Not the best source of advice. 
(Heck, even when the team lemming trains to A/B, I still go C solo if I have to. Even just one ship can slow down their push quite a bit, as well as giving valuable map information)

[arttuperkunas]

Just now, Hirohito said:

Then just don't follow the advice, it usually comes from someone around the 50% mark or lower.
Not the best source of advice. 
(Heck, even the team lemming trains to A/B, I still go C solo if I have to. Even just one ship can slow down their push quite a bit, as well as giving valuable map information)

This is where having matchmaking monitor would help (as in whose advice you want to take), but I was so depressed when I had it on that I stopped using it. Furthermore, I was quite bad company on our division's discord (as I would groan "10% win rate difference, there is no way we can win this" at the start of a battle). I mean, it was true, but still a downer for everyone :P.

[Figment]

It depends. If you can mob up A quickly and hold B, you'll be able to make the enemy come to you while you have a point advantage. But that hardly happens as it requires you to protect your broadside while pushing and all ships there have to be effective and efficiently firing at the enemy, while likely being forced or stalled at some chokepoints or even opting to sit in 'safe' camping spots that don't give them angles on the enemy. Thus chances are A is not pressed hard enough and the enemy can stall for time, while B is too much of a toss up to reliably win as that requires DD duels with support, where the support is in a very vulnerable spot as those at C are pretty much free to support B.

 

Worst case and most likely scenario, the side to push A loses their DD(s) or just never pushes to cap and you'll lose all caps and get circled.

 

 

First, I'll hope that call is ignored and just do what I always do and simply hold and try to push the flank I'm at. But if the team listens to such bad calls, in those instances, if my team really wants to try this, I do one of five things:

 

If I'm at A, I push, hard and I try to make sure the team moves through the area between A and B, rather than just the far side of A. I just keep moving up to bring my team as close to the cap zone as possible, at great risk to my ship. I rather I tank and dodge for as long as possible than someone who doesn't know how to while the lesser gods behind me arn't fired at and able to get free shots in, while having the courage to move up.

If I'm at B, I'll push B on the side of A with whatever I got and try to distract those enemies heading for A asap so they have to pick who to broadside to.

If I'm at C and DD I'll push C for stalling time, I'll fog up and torp and try to make it seem there's more ships than there are to keep them guessing (doesn't work for long usually).

If I'm at C and cruiser, I'll kite towards B and see if I can help win that for the DD and maintain a corner camp at an island or so.

If I'm at C and BB, I'll kite to the far corner, to create as much time for the team as possible by drawing the enemy as far away from B as they're willing to chase me, maybe create some broadside opportunities for those near B. Usualy ends in burning out.

 

In the end, a plan is better than no plan.

[Hirohito]

1 minute ago, arttuperkunas said:

This is where having matchmaking monitor would help (as in whose advice you want to take), but I was so depressed when I had it on that I stopped using it. Furthermore, I was quite bad company on our division's discord (as I would groan "10% win rate difference, there is no way we can win this" at the start of a battle). I mean, it was true, but still a downer for everyone :P.

Yeah I usually don't use it either, the thing can hit morale pretty hard at times.
Though I do use it for ranked, but mostly just as a tool to identify certain players that I need to watch out for.
60% mino on the enemy team? Yeah that guy is 99% chance of running radar and taking up a forward position behind some islands to ruin my day.

45% mino? 99% chance of running smoke and sitting at max range in the open, ignore him.

Though back on topic: Ignore that advice of an A/B split, I can't recall any map where that would ever be a good idea.

A lot of the maps you don't even want to be fighting over B early, as that is the most exposed cap being open to crossfires.
Parking radar near it, sure, but not fighting over it unless you know very well what you're doing.

[Montrala]

2 godziny temu, arttuperkunas napisał:

 To me it seems that you're just giving the enemy free crossfires.

 

Depends on map. For example on Neighbors it is favorable to take C and then get B under cover of islands, that to fight for A. However this require actually getting C and pushing other team away from islands, into open water. Here you can see (on my Georgia video) how it ends to team that did not manage to secure C fast enough: https://youtu.be/RCXs15ITT2w

[Hirohito]

3 minutes ago, Montrala said:

 

Depends on map. For example on Neighbors it is favorable to take C and then get B under cover of islands, that to fight for A. However this require actually getting C and pushing other team away from islands, into open water. Here you can see (on my Georgia video) how it ends to team that did not manage to secure C fast enough: https://youtu.be/RCXs15ITT2w

Still a bad idea to outright give up the cap from the start though.
You give away a free cap if any lone DD decides to take it, and you don't grab enough map space for your team, often ending in crossfires and lack of vision.

[arttuperkunas]

Thanks to everyone for super useful feedback and tips, particularly @Figment for concrete suggestions on what to do when one finds oneself in the "let's push A/B!" situation.

 

My problem in general with these "quickly and effectively push A/B" strategies is that one is trying to execute a difficult, A+ class strategy with what is very likely a C- team - in other words, it could work well with a co-ordinated and competent team, but the team as a whole is probably at best mediocre, maybe even worse.

 

 

[bobtherterrible]

4 minutes ago, Montrala said:

 

Depends on map. For example on Neighbors it is favorable to take C and then get B under cover of islands, that to fight for A. However this require actually getting C and pushing other team away from islands, into open water. Here you can see (on my Georgia video) how it ends to team that did not manage to secure C fast enough: https://youtu.be/RCXs15ITT2w

Neighbours is the worst map for lemming trains, particularly for the left/north team

The lure of that island cover usually results in 8-10 of the team heading that way and results in getting encircled and trapped in the top corner.

 

I have, however, had some great games holding off the push from the south. If the northern flank is successful this can work out well , but all too often they all go north and then all die there.

 

Which brings me to the point  - i can't say that it is always clear that a well supported flank or an unsupported one will win or lose. What matters more is shooting straight and sinking the enemy. IF you don't do that you lose whatever tactic is chosen.

 

Also, people who decide on a strategy before any idea of the disposition of the enemy are usually not worth listening to.

My criteria for deciding which way to go include: 

1)if there is a CV where is he? CVs that feel threatened are liable to be more of a pain than usual.

2) Where are the enemy radars (if any) and how can we get in a position to neutralise them.

3) where did the DDs go.

 

If you don't know any of that, deciding on a strategy is 80% guesswork.

 

[bobtherterrible]

The most hilarious ones are when someone gets all upset and clicky on epicentre maps. Just because we're not in the middle of the map as soon as possible being focus fired doesn't mean we're not working on winning.

[Hirohito]

14 minutes ago, arttuperkunas said:

Thanks to everyone for super useful feedback and tips, particularly @Figment for concrete suggestions on what to do when one finds oneself in the "let's push A/B!" situation.

 

My problem in general with these "quickly and effectively push A/B" strategies is that one is trying to execute a difficult, A+ class strategy with what is very likely a C- team - in other words, it could work well with a co-ordinated and competent team, but the team as a whole is probably at best mediocre, maybe even worse.

 

 

I disagree that an A/B strategy is an A+ strategy though.
I mean, it can work with a competent team, but still is a bad idea in a near majority of cases.
The problem is the parts of the team that sits at both A and B.
A has a problem, since when pushing hard onto one half of the map, once they win that flank about half the team is out of position to be influential.
Had a situation like that yesterday, where even though we won A cap, the BBs in particular had to spend a long time traveling over to B to be useful (as they would have to shoot targets in C from B, as opposed to being able to shoot targets from A trying to contest B).
The other problem is the team that grabs B.
B has a problem in that the enemy fleet creates nasty crossfires from the retreating A flank, as well as fire from C flank and any ships that push beyond C flank - potentially a 270 degree crossfire.
They also lack support from A, and often get picked off by the time A flank arrives to reinforce B.

Regardless of whether you are in a BB, Cruiser or DD, going solo to C cap can be of immense value.
As a DD for instance, I try to zone out the enemy DD from being able to push freely into our half of the map, kiting away but letting the enemy DD know that there is a ship in front of him and that he better be careful.
I follow this up with some random torps, that are more for sending a strong signal to the enemy team that "this is unsafe territory, be careful".
All the time trying to keep track of their C flank push through spotting and staying alive (the enemy DD pushing up is the biggest threat).
In a BB/Cruisers, you similarly can turn away early and slowly start to kite back to your team, staying at a healthy range, angling/evading shots and managing cooldowns to stay alive.
It generally makes the pushing team a lot more wary, and in case they fail to take the message, often causes a lot of morons to overextend into a crossfire trying to kill off that kiting BB (me).

[arttuperkunas]

3 minutes ago, bobtherterrible said:

Which brings me to the point  - i can't say that it is always clear that a well supported flank or an unsupported one will win or lose. What matters more is shooting straight and sinking the enemy. IF you don't do that you lose whatever tactic is chosen.

 

Probably the most frustrating games for me are ones where my side holds, or even wins the weak flank, and the strong flank crumbles entirely. Those are the kinds of games where you just go "oh well, I guess there was no chance of winning the game no matter what I did".

 

Those defeats are not that hard to foresee though, if one can see from the minimap that the players have bad positioning (like really bunched up, no effort to create crossfires, half of the team can't even fire due to being behind islands or just having no vision...). 

 

 

[Montrala]

I would say that 80% of success is to have any strategy that team actually executes. Even lemming train can work if, it is executed swiftly enough to effectively "rotate" teams 90 degrees on map. However on most maps there is side that is better get in that scenario, than other one. Lemming trains mostly fail at stage, where most of team hides behind one island and are looking on each other "you go first".

[arttuperkunas]

2 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

I disagree that an A/B strategy is an A+ strategy though.

I'm sorry, I was not being clear. I did not mean to say that it is usually a GOOD strategy, but a demanding strategy (i.e. requiring A+ players to work). The sad fact is that unless it is a clan match, one cannot choose one's team, and I assume that while our players might have good intentions, we will almost certainly have bad communication (as we have not played together before), and probably also inexperienced players.

 

so if you choose a strategy that requires a co-ordinated, competent team to have any chance of success, then that is probably the wrong strategy.

[Hirohito]

11 minutes ago, bobtherterrible said:

Neighbours is the worst map for lemming trains, particularly for the left/north team

The lure of that island cover usually results in 8-10 of the team heading that way and results in getting encircled and trapped in the top corner.

 

This right here.

Have seen so many lemming trains going to C, and it usually always fails.
Once they secure C, they have a real problem trying to grab A, as they have given up so much map space for crossfires into C or the C-side of B.
Capping B from a lemming train at C is a fool's errand.
Usually the DDs get blocked there (and get not vision behind that island, and no torp angles to speak of), while cruisers and BBs get farmed by HE over the island.
In general, the C side suffers the vision war and its so easy to spot stuff in C, but generally hard to spot stuff from C due to all the obstructions in the way.

[tocqueville8]

I'm nowhere near a Super Unicum, but I would suggest that on Neighbors the team that spawns on the East shouldn't go to C.

 

Usually the Western team will push C harder, and once they capture it they'll put any Eastern ship that went to C with their backs to the wall, unable to both angle and run away, as the landmass prevents them to.

On the other hand, B has a huge island to its North, so it's easier to get from the South. Therefore A+B is probably a better strategy than A+C, when coming from the East.

 

On NE Passage (a typical T3-T6 map) going middle in a BB (with some DD escort) is also useful, as you'll probably get nice broadside targets North and South. If going from West to East, you might even sneak behind enemy lines and sink their CV (some go middle for some reason, instead of supporting their own flank).

 

Generally speaking, caps that are surrounded by islands are probably more valuable, as they can be used as "bases" to farm enemies from cover.

[MrWastee]

80% of my every match chat in a nutshell:

 

#lemmingslose

 

#lemmingsstilllose

 

SURPRISE

#lemmingslost

 

#howtothrow

 

... go play barbie, thx.

[DFens_666]

1 minute ago, MrWastee said:

80% of my every match chat in a nutshell:

 

#lemmingslose

 

#lemmingsstilllose

 

SURPRISE

#lemmingslost

 

#howtothrow

 

... go play barbie, thx.

 

Crashzone Alpha in ranked is a legit lemming tactic to go A/B

[Lootboxer]

Shards for average players going AB/BC depending on a spawn seems to be okish.