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WhiteCliffs

Andrea Doria - Promising Frustration?

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Hi all,

 

Is anyone enjoying this ship?

 

I’m trying hard to but after 12 games at a 50% win rate I’m feeling skeptical. Think my win rate in most BBs hovers around 60% or so, and in most I feel as though I can exert some good presence on the map. So 12 games is a small sample I know, but I really don’t feel like I’m bringing much to a team with Andrea Doria.

 

The ship feels like it could be good. Rudder shift is good and speed is workable. The armour feels sturdy enough but the guns are, as I’ve seen many say, atrocious. When shells are consistently landing behind and in front of the target, left and right, all at the same time, it’s beyond frustrating.

 

For example: Fuso has more guns, bigger guns, better sigma, HE for DDs, far longer range and equivalent armour, what’s Doria bringing to the table?

 

As I say, I’d like to like this ship - she’s nimble and a looker. I’m wondering if anyone is actually enjoying her though? Or are we really looking at a dud? It truly seems bizarre to plan a line around poor accuracy. Surely taking away from a players ability to exert skill - through aim - is counterproductive. Don’t reward good aiming, or good positioning  - because you can’t capitalise on it - but it’s okay, here’s SAP? From what I’ve seen so far a good shell type in niche circumstances sure, but far from enough to build a line around. Anyway, look forward to hearing what people think of this ship.

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"SAP is powerful, let's make it so it hits less often" seems to be the design philosophy with the Italian battleships, and as with anything that's balanced by introducing RNG, it ends up being immensely dissatisfying to play. Specifically regarding the Andrea Doria, she seems like a solid enough ship and as you say she looks pretty great and manoeuvres well, but given that SAP is her unique selling point and that ends up reliant on the shell scatter working in your favour, it doesn't feel like there's ever a point playing her in favour of some of the other battleships at T6.

 

I think that WG need to improve the accuracy on the main battery to make the ship/s worth playing, although that may well mean looking at other ways of 'balancing' SAP.

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45 minutes ago, NobleSauvage said:

"SAP is powerful, let's make it so it hits less often" seems to be the design philosophy with the Italian battleships, and as with anything that's balanced by introducing RNG, it ends up being immensely dissatisfying to play. Specifically regarding the Andrea Doria, she seems like a solid enough ship and as you say she looks pretty great and manoeuvres well, but given that SAP is her unique selling point and that ends up reliant on the shell scatter working in your favour, it doesn't feel like there's ever a point playing her in favour of some of the other battleships at T6.

Experienced it with the T7 especially when RNG favours you it is easy damage, when it doesn't multiple ships get away on 1k hp left loosing you the match, all other aspects of the ships are fine just the guns are entirely a slot machine and it is hard to even decide if it is worth using AP or SAP as the dispersion is what really decides how much damage you do not the ammunition...

 

45 minutes ago, NobleSauvage said:

I think that WG need to improve the accuracy on the main battery to make the ship/s worth playing, although that may well mean looking at other ways of 'balancing' SAP.

Well if WG listened to everyone when the ships were first announced that the SAP alpha is too high and has to be lowered to a value reasonably below that of the AP otherwise they will be forced to balance it in a way that is not fun for everyone... Well look where we are with stupidly hard hitting shells but with glacial reloads and dispersion so bad it is just frustrating.

 

For example for the new Marco Polo BB WG mention that one of the big selling points is that you can nearly fire 2 salvos in a minute... WOW!!! We have never had BBs at tier 9 with that before have we...

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ITA BBs appear balanced around having sap, as they should, sap applies ap damage with the same ease and consistency as HE, it's actually pretty damn scary at T8/T9/T10. But at lower tiers, SAP isn't nearly as good, yet the ships are still paying for their SAP with meh reload, meh damage against DDs and meh many other things. It's not the first line that's kinda bad low tier and becomes good high tier. American BBs are a bunch of pigs you play until you get N.C, French DDs are mostly pointless CV food until you get to high tier. I guess it's another line that only really opens up at later tiers. Watching them perform, I am glad they were handing out the low tier ones for free so I can skip straight to T8, that one actually looks decent.

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16 minutes ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

Experienced it with the T7 especially when RNG favours you it is easy damage, when it doesn't multiple ships get away on 1k hp left loosing you the match, all other aspects of the ships are fine just the guns are entirely a slot machine and it is hard to even decide if it is worth using AP or SAP as the dispersion is what really decides how much damage you do not the ammunition...

 

Well if WG listened to everyone when the ships were first announced that the SAP alpha is too high and has to be lowered to a value reasonably below that of the AP otherwise they will be forced to balance it in a way that is not fun for everyone... Well look where we are with stupidly hard hitting shells but with glacial reloads and dispersion so bad it is just frustrating.

 

For example for the new Marco Polo BB WG mention that one of the big selling points is that you can nearly fire 2 salvos in a minute... WOW!!! We have never had BBs at tier 9 with that before have we...

 

The sad thing is, Doria already has lower damage on her SAP shells (9100) than her AP (9700) which makes for quite a few potential problems to my mind:

 

  • Battleship SAP only does 10% damage to destroyers, just like an AP overpen, meaning that when the AP has higher standard damage means it's actually knocking off more HP overall for the same number of hits
  • SAP can ricochet like AP (I think I recall someone mentioning that battleship SAP has something crazy like a 45-degree angle where it starts checking for ricochets compared to 70 degrees or so for cruiser SAP but I don't know personally if that's correct), but it can't overmatch, so against the angles of a destroyer bow, AP is again the better option as it might punch through a thin part of the armour where SAP would just ping off
  • Whether SAP or AP is better for a given salvo seems to come down to whether or not you think the SAP will penetrate where the AP would overpen; but with the Doria her guns are pretty tiny to begin with (for the tier), so the AP is less likely to overpen and also is better able to handle penetrating than the SAP is when it scatters onto some better-armoured part of the enemy due to poor dispersion

 

Overall, at least until the SAP damage gets higher than the AP from T7 upward (point of fact the T7 through at least T9 main guns all do the same damage), it becomes pretty hard to justify using SAP for a given salvo instead of AP: they'll both scatter wildly, neither will do any damage on a non-penetration, but the AP is that much more likely to punch through if it does hit. Ironically, they could buff the SAP even if they lower its damage, simply by increasing penetration on the AP shells so that they're more likely to overpen.

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4 minuti fa, NobleSauvage ha scritto:

but it can't overmatch,

nope, SAP does count for overmatch; 

image.png.284afa964bd0c364fa5bcd42f8c5da

 

Also, 12 or 16 SAP shells at Tier 9 and 10 sounds cary, until you remember that they have 1.6 and 1.5 sigma respectively (which are for comparison Normandie and Lyon sigmas and accuracy, since they have the same formula (Alsace too)); now, i've said this in another thread, you might think that you want to use them as brawlers, but you literally have 0 tools to brawl: low HP pool, nerfed turtleback, no RU dmg con, no improved heal of any sort, no Russian dispersion formula and your secondaries are even more useless than your SAP. 

Now, you do have exhaust smoke on T8+ (i wish Doria and Cara kept it :Smile_sad:), but... someone needs to be blind to not see a huge cloud of smoke coming towards him at 30 knots and your smoke firing penalty is about 2.5km worse than your standard concealment with a full build, which means that you want to not shoot when in your smoke, rendering even that one useless (for comparison, the Ita cruisers have a smoke penalty that is about 2.5km LESS than their max concealment) 

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I determined her to be the least horrible (but by no means enjoyable) of the 4 free galleys, so I will probably keep her in case some directive requires an Italian BB. Besides, at T6 there is also the (rather theoretical, in case of this shotgun) option to use her for operations.

 

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12 minutes ago, wot_2016_gunner said:

nope, SAP does count for overmatch; 

image.png.284afa964bd0c364fa5bcd42f8c5da

 

Also, 12 or 16 SAP shells at Tier 9 and 10 sounds cary, until you remember that they have 1.6 and 1.5 sigma respectively (which are for comparison Normandie and Lyon sigmas and accuracy, since they have the same formula (Alsace too)); now, i've said this in another thread, you might think that you want to use them as brawlers, but you literally have 0 tools to brawl: low HP pool, nerfed turtleback, no RU dmg con, no improved heal of any sort, no Russian dispersion formula and your secondaries are even more useless than your SAP. 

Now, you do have exhaust smoke on T8+ (i wish Doria and Cara kept it :Smile_sad:), but... someone needs to be blind to not see a huge cloud of smoke coming towards him at 30 knots and your smoke firing penalty is about 2.5km worse than your standard concealment with a full build, which means that you want to not shoot when in your smoke, rendering even that one useless (for comparison, the Ita cruisers have a smoke penalty that is about 2.5km LESS than their max concealment) 

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that (I had the impression for some reason that the lower pen on SAP meant it couldn't overmatch the same way AP could, although given that overmatch is based on calibre I realise that's kinda illogical)!

 

Don't forget that the slow reload on the main guns make brawling (or really just duelling) anyone with a quicker reload an exercise in frustration. Agreed on the lack of smoke, or consumables of any kind whatsoever, on AD and FC; sometimes they just feel like basic bargain-bin fightyboats without any of the bells and whistles, rather than proper name-brand Battleships(TM)...

 

8 minutes ago, MementoMori_6030 said:

I determined her to be the least horrible (but by no means enjoyable) of the 4 free galleys, so I will probably keep her in case some directive requires an Italian BB. Besides, at T6 there is also the (rather theoretical, in case of this shotgun) option to use her for operations.

 


I've personally gotten on somewhat better with the Frankie Call-o'-Cthulhu at T7, definitely feels more like a proper battlewagon with 15" guns and SAP that actually out-damages the AP; plus, the turret turn rate is just lovely! Although AD will do Ops alright (tried her on Aegis and Newport so far), she's stuck with the same RNG-tastic fun-and-engagement of other modes which can be frustrating; still, there's at least one Kuma on the Aegis bot team that won't be forgetting my SAP in a hurry :cap_rambo:

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It's a fine ship. The SAP murders DDs, and HE on BBs is toxic anyways.

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24 minutes ago, Jethro_Grey said:

It's a fine ship. The SAP murders DDs, and HE on BBs is toxic anyways.

Not really as it's damage to DDs is capped at 10% same as the AP shells, so on the T6 and below it is actually better to shoot AP at DDs cause of the 600 higher max damage per shell...

 

1 hour ago, NobleSauvage said:

 

The sad thing is, Doria already has lower damage on her SAP shells (9100) than her AP (9700) which makes for quite a few potential problems to my mind:

 

  • Battleship SAP only does 10% damage to destroyers, just like an AP overpen, meaning that when the AP has higher standard damage means it's actually knocking off more HP overall for the same number of hits
  • SAP can ricochet like AP (I think I recall someone mentioning that battleship SAP has something crazy like a 45-degree angle where it starts checking for ricochets compared to 70 degrees or so for cruiser SAP but I don't know personally if that's correct), but it can't overmatch, so against the angles of a destroyer bow, AP is again the better option as it might punch through a thin part of the armour where SAP would just ping off
  • Whether SAP or AP is better for a given salvo seems to come down to whether or not you think the SAP will penetrate where the AP would overpen; but with the Doria her guns are pretty tiny to begin with (for the tier), so the AP is less likely to overpen and also is better able to handle penetrating than the SAP is when it scatters onto some better-armoured part of the enemy due to poor dispersion

 

Overall, at least until the SAP damage gets higher than the AP from T7 upward (point of fact the T7 through at least T9 main guns all do the same damage), it becomes pretty hard to justify using SAP for a given salvo instead of AP: they'll both scatter wildly, neither will do any damage on a non-penetration, but the AP is that much more likely to punch through if it does hit. Ironically, they could buff the SAP even if they lower its damage, simply by increasing penetration on the AP shells so that they're more likely to overpen.

 

What I meant by lower damage was a reasonable lower damage not just a few hundred less, more like in this case 6-7k alpha on the SAP, but compensated with much better dispersion and reload which would make the ships fun... And as you said if AP was more likely to overpen (just like Roma) then there would still be a choice between ammunitions and, you might not even need SAP capped at 10% against DDs with the lower alpha... TBH I think the same needs to be done with the cruisers cause as they currently are there is only 1 time you load AP and that is when you can guarantee citadels, which isn't often...

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On 3/16/2021 at 5:19 PM, WhiteCliffs said:

For example: Fuso has more guns, bigger guns, better sigma, HE for DDs, far longer range and equivalent armour, what’s Doria bringing to the table?

Better speed and rudder, much better turret traverse (you can comfortably save 2 captain points for PT, the AA skill or Vigilance), much better concealment (very important when bottom tier), better AA, slightly better turret arrangement.

 

I love my Fuso, but I don't think the Andrea Doria has any real issue.

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Doria can use AP all the time, not like her VII tier sister which constantly overpenetrate cruisers.

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7 hours ago, NobleSauvage said:

"SAP is powerful, let's make it so it hits less often" seems to be the design philosophy with the Italian battleships, and as with anything that's balanced by introducing RNG, it ends up being immensely dissatisfying to play. Specifically regarding the Andrea Doria, she seems like a solid enough ship and as you say she looks pretty great and manoeuvres well, but given that SAP is her unique selling point and that ends up reliant on the shell scatter working in your favour, it doesn't feel like there's ever a point playing her in favour of some of the other battleships at T6.

 

I think that WG need to improve the accuracy on the main battery to make the ship/s worth playing, although that may well mean looking at other ways of 'balancing' SAP.

A noble summary. I tentatively agree. The abysmal accuracy is for Andrea Doria too high a price for SAP as it stands.

 

I’ve also wondered whether her relatively small guns at 320mm are coming undone against the armour schemes of WW1 era T6 counterparts. I’ve seen an awful lot of shatters from SAP against BBs. Small superstructures, external belts and thick ice-breakers don’t seem to make good targets for her gimmick ammo type.

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3 hours ago, tocqueville8 said:

Better speed and rudder, much better turreet traverse (you can comfortably save 2 captain points for PT, the AA skill or Vigilance), much better concealment (very important when bottom tier).

I know it’s a nimble ship, my point of the comparison was really to say that Andrea Doria’s few strengths, being manoeuvrable,  do not allow you to exert influence in a game. A good rudder shift is defensive, while the faster, harder hitting, more accurate and longer range guns on Fuso are offensive. Warspite’s accuracy and much bigger guns, QE’s HE and accuracy, even New Mexico’s twelve guns are all offensive strengths that let you - through skill - exert influence over a game. If you can’t influence a game you’re not going to have fun and neither are your team.

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6 minutes ago, WhiteCliffs said:

my point of the comparison was really to say that Andrea Doria’s few strengths, being manoeuvrable,  do not allow you to exert influence in a game

Well the Fuso has great firepower, that's for sure.

 

However, the superior handling and turret traverse make the Doria at least as competitive in a kiting situation (sometimes you win games by delaying the enemy's strong flank, not by pushing yours) or when flanking, which is an offensive strategy.

Also, the concealment allows her to play like an ambush predator in the middle-to-late game, if necessary: it's as often offensive as it is defensive, and it's especially useful in the more open maps you find at high tiers.

The Andrea Doria, it is my understanding, is the single stealthiest T6 BB, even better than some cruisers, while the Fuso is by far the most conspicuous.

 

Speed is essential to disengage when things go badly, keep up with a moving battle, and reposition once things are over on your flank.

The New Mexico, or any USN Standard BB, has problems with that, and unless your map awareness is top notch you'll spend several minutes per game, on average, simply catching up with the next fight. The Andrea Doria, while not as fast as, say, a Dunkerque, has no trouble staying relevant and exerting her influence.

 

Having good AA (and good torpedo belt) also means you can flank alone a bit more safely in CV games, which again is the sort of thing that can win games, whether offensively or defensively.

 

The Fuso is my 4th most played ship, Tier 6 damage record holder, permacamo and all, but I'd take the Doria over the New Mexico or Normandie any day.

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9 hours ago, tocqueville8 said:

 

The Andrea Doria, it is my understanding, is the single stealthiest T6 BB, even better than some cruisers, while the Fuso is by far the most conspicuous.

 

 

 

Ironic thing here is the Andrea Doria will be able to spot the Fuso some 2 km before its in range of her guns, with her sigma pretty much have to wait a couple more km before been sure of decent hits so you end up having to hold fire and wait for the enemy to come to you otherwise they can just take your first salvo move out of your range and punish you with return fire which can be pretty devastating from a fuso or NM given the disparity in hitpoint pools you just can't easily play cat and mouse trading salvos, especially if they manage to light you up and you lose a lot of your stealth. Given the ADs are 'special' ships at the moment with all the modules researched and a camo thrown in I really wouldn't like to be the player that has to take a stock AD out when she becomes a regular tech tree ship without the modules and camo. 

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12 hours ago, WhiteCliffs said:

A noble summary. I tentatively agree. The abysmal accuracy is for Andrea Doria too high a price for SAP as it stands.

Thanks ;) Although I would argue that the abysmal accuracy isn't the main problem on its own: the combination of that, the slow fire rate and the small shell calibre (as you pointed out), mean that each issue compounds the others, and makes for an experience which just isn't as fun as it could (or should) be for the player.

 

It's a classic example of why WG's approach of balancing by spreadsheet is fine on paper but less so under actual game conditions. On a spreadsheet it's easy to see good numbers for speed, manoeuvrability, turret rotation etc. and simply balance those by bad numbers in accuracy, reload time, gun calibre and so forth; the problem under actual game conditions is of course that as you also mentioned, one side of that equation has stats that are used defensively/passively, the other is all things that are offensive/active, so the overall result is an imbalance between those two factors in the ships. And that's to say nothing of how frustrating it is to have less than two salvos per minute with a high likelihood of the shells just flat-out missing at any reasonable combat range. We've already had the American brick battleships which are slow and slow-firing, that are unpopular with players as a result of their low influence potential on a game; as it stands, I can't see the Italian line doing much better in terms of popularity without a buff or two to help out.

 

On the subject of gun calibre, it's interesting to speculate what might have been if WG had started the line one tier lower (y'know, like all the other battleship lines in the game): shift every ship down a tier, at least up to T7 or so, and you have the 12" guns stopping at T4; 12.6" guns at T5 where they're far less out of place; and 15" guns from T6 which is perfectly when reasonable compared to the other T6s. Obviously the guns' stats can be tweaked all sorts of ways so that they're not exactly out of place wherever they end up, but the T3-start idea seems a lot more in line with other lines so I wonder if that was the plan originally with this selection of ships.

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40 minutes ago, NobleSauvage said:

. And that's to say nothing of how frustrating it is to have less than two salvos per minute with a high likelihood of the shells just flat-out missing at any reasonable combat range. We've already had the American brick battleships which are slow and slow-firing, that are unpopular with players as a result of their low influence potential on a game; as it stands, I can't see the Italian line doing much better in terms of popularity without a buff or two to help out.

 

 

Not sure if you have one of those Speesul Andrea Dorias but mine does exactly 2 shots a minute which is pretty much par for BBs, its a mid-tier tech tree ship, its just there as a stepping stone for people to grind on their way to bigger and better things, every line has its road blocks, this one looks a little steep but no worse than an Emerald! Before they buff'ed the German BB's dispersion I hated them, didn't stop me grinding all the way to tier 10.

 

There's a certain former cc/streamer who bemoaned the British heavy cruisers and raves about the Tallin, I find the Tallin OK rather play a Baltimore but I like British CAs, one man's meat and all that! Didn't ask WG for an Italian BB line but they made one, I'll give it a go just glad there's an event I won't have to grind through the lower tiers!

 

53 minutes ago, NobleSauvage said:

On the subject of gun calibre, it's interesting to speculate what might have been if WG had started the line one tier lower (y'know, like all the other battleship lines in the game): shift every ship down a tier, at least up to T7 or so, and you have the 12" guns stopping at T4; 12.6" guns at T5 where they're far less out of place; and 15" guns from T6 which is perfectly when reasonable compared to the other T6s. Obviously the guns' stats can be tweaked all sorts of ways so that they're not exactly out of place wherever they end up, but the T3-start idea seems a lot more in line with other lines so I wonder if that was the plan originally with this selection of ships.

 

Well the Andrea Doria is  an actual ship with guns of that calibre in those numbers, in its modernised  form, and were meant as a response to the Dunkerque and also faced the Royal Navy's modernised Queen Elizabeth Class ships in the med so no reason why it shouldn't sit in Tier 6 with those ships.  The Giulio Cesare tier 5 premium, in game, had to be withdrawn from sale because it was too strong for tier 5, the Andrea Dorias are superior to them in the real world, so no need to speculate really, either they have a tier 5 that's way overpowered or they make a mockery of real life ships by having a ship that is superior in real life play much worse in game than another ship in that line, not saying they couldn't have done that but that would just have another set of people complaining, damned if you do, damned if you don't!

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so basically the people that say spam HE is bad are the same that say ships with super HE (aka SAP) need to be more accurate in spamming super HE

 

got it

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9 hours ago, EnacheV said:

so basically the people that say spam HE is bad are the same that say ships with super HE (aka SAP) need to be more accurate in spamming super HE

 

got it

Nah SAP needs the alpha turned down loads to stop it becoming a SAP spamming slot machine which is not fun for either side (the one firing and the one being shot at) as it all comes down to how good the RNG roll is...

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