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leonport

Secondary builds that are actually better after rework

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So most secondary ships lost their secondaries value after the rework BUT there is 2 ijn sister ships that actually benefited from the commander rework secondary wise

 

Im talking about amagi and kii. These 2 ships received a huge buff to their base range (5km before commander rework and 6.6km after commander rework) and now can reach up to 10km which is a not amazing but way better(and workable) than what they used to have (they used to have 7.5km max)

 

lets compare massachusetts secondary to amagi secondary after the secondary changes

lets start off with range:

massachusetts have a GOOD 7.5km base range that with all skills/modules can get a nice 11.3km max range,no changes here

amagi used to have a BAD 5km base range and could get it up to 7.5km BUT after 0.10.0 now it has 6.6km base range that with all skills/modules can get up to a pretty decent 10km max range

so after 0.10.0 massachusetts still wins range but amagi now has a workable 10km secondary range instead if the garbage 7.5km it used to have(amagi received a 33% buff to its max range)

 

lets talk about dpm

massachusetts has 10x127mm american secondary guns with improved dispersion,now to get effective dpm you need the guns regular dpm which is 270 000dpm and you multiply that with its accuracy (which after 0.10.0 is 30%,used to be around 40%) so you get an effective dpm of 81 000dpm

 

for amagi its a bit more difficult,it has 8x140mm japanese secondary guns with same dispersion as massa secondary and 8x127mm japanese secondary with regular dispersion. So the dpm of the 140mm guns is 144 000 dpm multiply that with the same accuracy as massa(30%)and you get an effective dpm of 43 200dpm for the 140mm guns,for the 127mm guns you have 168 000dpm but you need to multiply this by only 15% because after 0.10.0 this is the hitrate for secondary guns without improved accuracy, so the effective dpm for the 127mm guns is 25 200dpm. Final effective dpm of amagi secondaries is 68 400dpm.

this means for effective dpm massa is the winner,massachusetts have around 25% better effective secondary dpm

next thing i want to discuss and it will supprise most of you is fire chance:

for massa you have guns that fire 15times/min with 5% base fire chance = 7,5 fires started/minute,you also multiply this by its 30% accuracy and you get an effective 2,25fires.

for amagi you have your 140mm guns that fire 7.5 times/min with 10% base fire chance = 6,4 fires started/minute,just as for massa you multiply this with its accuracy of 30% and you get 1,8 effective fires started/minute. For amagi's 127mm guns they have a rate of fire of 10rounds/minute with 8%base fire chance you get 6,4 fires started/minute but you sadly need to multiply this with 0,15 to get their effective fire chance of 0,96 fires started/minute.You add the 140mm fire chance with the 127mm fire chance and you get an effective 2,76fires/minute

 

In terms of base fire chance amagi wins, it has 22%better fire starting capabilities than massachusetts,if you use signal flags on both of them,massa will get way better fire chances and starts to close the gap but amagi still beats it,massa fire chance with signals+skills =3,15 fires/min,amagi fire chance with signals+skills =3,36 fires/min, so full fire chance specced amagi still beats full fire specced massachusetts but not by a lot(6% only to be exact)

so in terms of fire chance amagi beats massachusetts but if you pick the right skills and signals massachusetts will close the gap and have only 6% worse overall fire starting ability.

 

So amagi secondary is pretty decent now, i consider it about 15% weaker than massachusetts secondary because its range is still smaller and its has less effective dpm,BUT i have to say that amagi is a ship that wasn't designed around its secondaries but now you they are comparable to massa secondary, amagi secondary has become pretty impressive after 0.10.0 and you should definetly try it out if you have amagi.

 

Now after we discussed amagi lets talk about KII

 

i compare KII to tirpitz due to both of them having high pen and inaccurate secondaries that require ifhe to truly shine

 

Lets start off by range

 

KII secondary range is now the same 10km as amagi nothing else to say

Tirpitz received a miniature range buff and it has now 11.5km secondary range

 

in terms of secondary range tirpitz beats KII but just like amagi KII has now workable secondary range

 

Now lets talk about dpm:

 

Tirpitz has 4x2x105 mm and 3x6x150 mm secondaries

effective dpm of tirpitz:8x1200x17.9=171 840dpm(for the 105mm) and 81 600dpm(for the 150mm)=253 440dpm and multiply this with their current accuracy of 20% and you get 50 688 effective secondary dpm

KII has 4x2x100 mm and 4x1x140 mm secondaries

effective dpm of KII:8x1700x20=272 000dpm(for the 100mm),40 800 effective secondary dpm for its 100mm and 72 000dpm (for the 140mm),21 600 effective dpm for its 140mm= an effective secondary dpm of:62 400dmg

 

so in terms of dpm KII even with the total garbage accuracy beats tirpitz and this is considering they both pen 32mm and deal dmg,but KII probably has a little disadvantage against targets that are more armor than 27mm because thats the pen of its 140mm secondary with ifhe

 

i calculate their fire starting capabilities with ifhe(because you play them with this skill probably)

 

For tirpitz you have 4x2x105mm secondaries with 20% hitrate and 2.5% base fire chance,17.9 rounds/min=3,58 fires started/minute+your 150mm secondaries with same hitrate but 8 rounds/min and 4% base fire chance you have=1,92 fires started/minute OVERALL fire chance of tirpitz secondaries =5,5 fires started/min*0,2(because accuracy)=1,1 effective fire numbers/min

For KII you have 5x2x100mm secondaries with 15% hitrate and 3%base fire 20 rounds/min=4,8 fires started/minute+your 140mm secondaries with 30% hitrate,7,5 rounds/min and 5% base fire chance=1,5 fires started/minute EFFECTIVE fire chance Of KII secondaries=4,8*0,15+1,5*0,3=1,065 effective fires/min

in terms of base fire chance Tirpitz beats kii by a whooping 0,035%,I consider base fire starting capabilities a draw.

Lets see the fire starting capabilities with skills and flags Tirpitz has(for 105mm):17.9*0,045*8=6,444fires/min and 8x0,06x6=2,88fires/min(for its 150mm)=9,324fires started*0,2(cus accuracy)=1,8648 effective fires/ min

KII with skills and flags:(for 100mm)20*0,05*8=8 fires started/min and 7,5*0,07*4=2,1fires started(for its 140mm)=8*0,15+2,1*0,3=1,83 effective fires started/min

with skills and flags tirpitz still has a little more fire chance but not by a lot i consider this a draw

 

So overall opinion on KII vs Tirpitz secondary(both ifhe): I consider KII as the winner due to its having 12k or about 18% more effective secondary dpm than tirpitz and nearly identical fire chance while only having 14% less range. Secondary wise KII has better dpm but tirpitz has farther reaching secondary but not by a lot like it use to be

Guys if you have KII and you like secondary builds and wanna meme then now is the time you pick a random  japanese commander from a different class ship and spec it for secondaries

 

If you actually readed all my crap thank you i appriciate it.

 

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The thing about Amagi is, it needs to give up the dispersion upgrade in slot 3 for the secondary upgrade, whereas the Massachusetts doesn't really have to give up anything (except range, which I don't find that important especially with spotter plane). While I have also been quite seriously considering an Amagi secondary build, I am very loath to give up the aiming module in slot 3 :/. I guess you could compensate for it by taking dead eye if you have the points, but right now is probably not a good time to invest in dead eye :P.

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People forget on one hand that Secondaries were not nerfed!

However, on the other hand, they made the captain's build that made them more viable and usable, so expensive in relation to how cheap it is to spec Deadeye, that they are close to worthless in 12v12 (1v1 might be different).

Now the player base was moving, had moved, to a camping, long range meta before Deadeye came out so it did not cause it but it does pander to it.

Personally, I think it would have served the game better if they had made Deadeye build up using 9 commander points, and secondaries cost 4 points, i.e. reversed.



 

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Just now, arttuperkunas said:

The thing about Amagi is, it needs to give up the dispersion upgrade in slot 3 for the secondary upgrade, whereas the Massachusetts doesn't really have to give up anything (except range, which I don't find that important especially with spotter plane). While I have also been quite seriously considering an Amagi secondary build, I am very loath to give up the aiming module in slot 3 :/. I guess you could compensate for it by taking dead eye if you have the points, but right now is probably not a good time to invest in dead eye :P.

The thing is amagi beats massachusetts in main battery firepower because better sigma and japanese dispersion(i own both ships and i prefer stock dispersion of amagi way more than massa dispersion)and taking deadeye for amagi is not very good idea because amagi has garbage concelament

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1 minute ago, leonport said:

The thing is amagi beats massachusetts in main battery firepower because better sigma and japanese dispersion(i own both ships and i prefer stock dispersion of amagi way more than massa dispersion)and taking deadeye for amagi is not very good idea because amagi has garbage concelament

I understand that, and I also possess both ships. I'm comparing Amagi to Amagi, not Massachusetts to Massachusetts. What's holding me back from secondary speccing is that I don't think the secondary range is worth the dispersion debuff.

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Just now, arttuperkunas said:

I understand that, and I also possess both ships. I'm comparing Amagi to Amagi, not Massachusetts to Massachusetts. What's holding me back from secondary speccing is that I don't think the secondary range is worth the dispersion debuff.

i builded amagi for secondary after the rework and i enjoy it more than i enjoy massa, in secondary build comparison Massachusetts trades main gun performance for better secondaries and survivability while amagi trades survivability for better main guns 

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All tiers from 3 to 6 benefit from the secondary rework... All tiers 7-10 suffer.

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50 minutes ago, leonport said:

amagi used to have a BAD 5km base range and could get it up to 7.5km BUT after 0.10.0 now it has 6.6km base range that with all skills/modules can get up to a pretty decent 10km max range

Range doesn't matter as much as accuracy.

 

It used to be that, with Manual Secondaries + the module, you could get 100-200 secondary hits during a prolonged standoff at, say, 8-10 km. Now you need to be at 4 km for that kind of secondary hit counter to happen, and at that range you should probably go for a drive-by instead (assuming your opponent has no torps).

 

Secondaries used to be able to melt charging DDs, if you turned away in time. Now they damage them, but they don't stop them.

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5 minutes ago, tocqueville8 said:

Range doesn't matter as much as accuracy.

 

It used to be that, with Manual Secondaries + the module, you could get 100-200 secondary hits during a prolonged standoff at, say, 8-10 km. Now you need to be at 4 km for that kind of secondary hit counter to happen, and at that range you should probably go for a drive-by instead (assuming your opponent has no torps).

 

Secondaries used to be able to melt charging DDs, if you turned away in time. Now they damage them, but they don't stop them.

but man amagi secondary is actually among the best secondary at tier 8 along with Kii but their range sucked and prevented them from becoming actually good but now they closed the range gap received a nerf to their effective dpm and my point was with the entire analysis was that their secondaries now no longer have total garbage range and their effective dmg is still good enough to give them a try

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I think you have to look further than only the secondary performance.

The platform from Tirpitz, Bismarck and Massa are simply simply superior to those of IJN BBs.

32mm plating is vulnerable to HE spam, while the others are better protected against it. 32mm is also vulnerable against Yamasushi overmatch.

Massa has 66% of its firepower facing forward. Bismarck and Tirpitz have only 50%, but their armor is still superior compared to IJN armor. While Amagi does have turtleback, its still not the same as german turtleback, and their gun layout supports kiting more than pushing (3 guns facing aftwards).

Massa has fast DCP heal, Bismarck has hydro, Tirpitz has torps. Amagi has nothing, Kii has torps atleast.

Also IJN BB shells tend to have bad dispersion the closer you get, so going close is generally a bad thing with them anyway.

 

The overall package is just not the same. I think it makes more sense speccing a russian BB for secondaries, as their superior closerange dispersion actually would support that. Also their armor is similar to germans, except getting citadelled when showing broadside.

 

Back when AP secondaries were a thing, Nagato was a scary Secondary ship btw...

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36 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

I think you have to look further than only the secondary performance.

The platform from Tirpitz, Bismarck and Massa are simply simply superior to those of IJN BBs.

32mm plating is vulnerable to HE spam, while the others are better protected against it. 32mm is also vulnerable against Yamasushi overmatch.

Massa has 66% of its firepower facing forward. Bismarck and Tirpitz have only 50%, but their armor is still superior compared to IJN armor. While Amagi does have turtleback, its still not the same as german turtleback, and their gun layout supports kiting more than pushing (3 guns facing aftwards).

Massa has fast DCP heal, Bismarck has hydro, Tirpitz has torps. Amagi has nothing, Kii has torps atleast.

Also IJN BB shells tend to have bad dispersion the closer you get, so going close is generally a bad thing with them anyway.

 

The overall package is just not the same. I think it makes more sense speccing a russian BB for secondaries, as their superior closerange dispersion actually would support that. Also their armor is similar to germans, except getting citadelled when showing broadside.

not really to be honest just look at massa vs amagi,32mm plating is only vulnerable to he spam that comes from cruisers that you have your superior main battery to kill from range so you doesn't have to engage them unlike you have to with massa 1.7sigma and tirpitz bismarck 380mm guns that can't overmatch them,and you don't encounter yamasushi all that often in tier 8,while the gun placement is true amagi has way better fireing angles than tirpitz making angling and using 100% of your firepower not that unconfortable,as for amagi turtleback yes its not as effective as tirpitz but its still effective enough to prevent citadels if you angle always which is not that hard with better fireing angles,their gun fireing angles supports kiting But not bad if you are pushing either i had harder time using my main guns and angling in bismarck than i had in secondary amagi,yes massa has fast dcp heal,but amagi beats massa in speed so you can just ran away or not engage because your main guns are good enough to kill them from midrange while massa can't say the same, as for tirpitz has torps:AND WHAT? torps on tirpitz are really overrated they only have 6km range and most of they time gets destoryed due to he spam because they are located in the middle of your deck(i know what im talking about i play pommern and for that torps are actually usefull in like 1in 20games and even then they get destroyed permanently every 2nd game)and what amagi has over tirpitz is a good torpedo dmg protection amagi has nearly best in tier torpedo protection of 43% while tirpitz is known for having lackluster torpedo buldge, and KII torps are actually usefull with being in the back of the hull protected from he spam having good range of 10km(reload time is the same and dmg/savlo is pretty much the same)and for the closing in is a bad thing, if you don't want to close in  a match you don't have to unlike massa and tirpitz because you have way better main guns that are better in basically every way than massa or tirpitz main guns,and for the dispersion your dispersion is only worse below 8,5km and even then its just a bit worse and its not like slava where your close range main gun dispersion is like 25% worse than a regular bb

 

so you get less survivability but more main gun firepower while having similar secondary performance i don't think this is a bad build.As for speccing russian bbs for secondaries makes 0 sense whatso ever 1.they have bad dpm 2.only kremlin 130mm secondaries have improved aim but those get destroyed after receiving even a little he spam, their armor is similar to germans but they are way more likely to get citadeled due to lacking turtleback or underwater citadel, while have high base hp also they lack 1 repair party which limits their survivability and makes them very vulnerable to fire dmg

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2 minutes ago, leonport said:

as for tirpitz has torps:AND WHAT? torps on tirpitz are really overrated they only have 6km range and most of they time gets destoryed due to he spam because they are located in the middle of your deck(i know what im talking about i play pommern and for that torps are actually usefull in like 1in 20games and even then they get destroyed permanently every 2nd game)and what amagi has over tirpitz is a good torpedo dmg protection amagi has nearly best in tier torpedo protection of 43% while tirpitz is known for having lackluster torpedo buldge, and KII torps are actually usefull with being in the back of the hull protected from he spam having good range of 10km(reload time is the same and dmg/savlo is pretty much the same)and for the closing in the is a bad thing, if you don't want to close in a match you don't have to unlike massa and tirpitz because you have way better main guns that are better in basically every way than massa or tirpitz main guns 

 

Torps might not be directly useful, but they are a deterrent for getting rammed. Too many players will just attempt to ram you when they see that they are dying, but they wont attempt that against a ship which has torps. Luckily, its almost impossible to know if a ship has lost its torptubes, unless the player in question destroyed them themselves (and even then 99% probably wont notice). People are way more hesitent to get close to a german BB, than they are against Massa. Believe me, ive played my fair share of secondary BBs aswell (not so much in randoms, but ranked too). People attempt to ram my Massa frequently, but they do not when i play Pommern. Must be the Torps.

 

Also just as a headsup:

That wall of text could have done with a couple of spaces in between, it was hard to read :Smile_smile:

 

7 minutes ago, leonport said:

but amagi beats massa in speed so you can just ran away or not engage because your main guns are good enough to kill them from midrange while massa can't say the same

 

Incidently, i hated my Amagi. Guns just didnt hit at all, Every game was just a pure grind with getting overpens nontstop. Massa has derpguns, but i still get reliable citadels with it - not something i do recall with Amagi. Reason? dont ask me, but i know Amagi is either loved or hated. I hated it.

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2 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Torps might not be directly useful, but they are a deterrent for getting rammed. Too many players will just attempt to ram you when they see that they are dying, but they wont attempt that against a ship which has torps. Luckily, its almost impossible to know if a ship has lost its torptubes, unless the player in question destroyed them themselves (and even then 99% probably wont notice). People are way more hesitent to get close to a german BB, than they are against Massa. Believe me, ive played my fair share of secondary BBs aswell (not so much in randoms, but ranked too). People attempt to ram my Massa frequently, but they do not when i play Pommern. Must be the Torps.

 

Also just as a headsup:

That wall of text could have done with a couple of spaces in between, it was hard to read :Smile_smile:

 

 

Incidently, i hated my Amagi. Guns just didnt hit at all, Every game was just a pure grind with getting overpens nontstop. Massa has derpguns, but i still get reliable citadels with it - not something i do recall with Amagi. Reason? dont ask me, but i know Amagi is either loved or hated. I hated it.

For the torps part if you fear people ramming you you are probably a bad player(no offense) because i play a lot of secondary ships but i never fear of getting rammed,there are only 2 things torpedoes on a bb is usefull for 1st is to make cruisers think twice before yolo rushing you with torps but this is only cruisers because they probably will have hard time dodging your torps as for dds:dds will still yolo rush you the only thing that makes them consider not to is your secondaries ,because unlike bismarck you have no hydro,and bbs don't want to close in on you because you are not citadelable at close range, the second use for torps is of course when you are closing in to another bb you can torp them to basically nuke their hp but as i said your torps get knocked out a lot and i had a lot of games where my torps would might been usefull if they didn'T get destroyed by he.

 

if you are not hitting anything in amagi thats your own problem as most players like myself has no problem using amagi main guns even at close range, i love amagi, i actually enjoy my amagi more after rework than i did before

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erm, what ? I got lost somewhere midpoint of the Amagi story ... so I fired up wowsft:

 

Amagi: 16x140mm secondary with 248m dispersion, 16x127mm seceondary with 407m dispersion

 

Massachussets: 20x128mm secondary with 278m dispersion

 

Both ships can get the same buffs from modules/skills/signals, so those are irrelevant to the discussion. In the first round the 127mm secondaries on the Amagi are useless with that dispersion, they might not even exist. There's not enough HE pen difference to give the 140s an advantage

 

Now damage: Amagi 140s 288k, Massa 540k (that's for all secondaries, if you divide by 2 for a per side weight you get 144k and 270k). Counting the 127mm ones on Amagi, it has an on-paper advantage, but that dispersion simply kills it completely.

 

Any way I look at it, Massa is still the better secondary boat ....

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1 minute ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

erm, what ? I got lost somewhere midpoint of the Amagi story ... so I fired up wowsft:

 

Amagi: 16x140mm secondary with 248m dispersion, 16x127mm seceondary with 407m dispersion

 

Massachussets: 20x128mm secondary with 278m dispersion

 

Both ships can get the same buffs from modules/skills/signals, so those are irrelevant to the discussion. In the first round the 127mm secondaries on the Amagi are useless with that dispersion, they might not even exist. There's not enough HE pen difference to give the 140s an advantage

 

Now damage: Amagi 140s 288k, Massa 540k (that's for all secondaries, if you divide by 2 for a per side weight you get 144k and 270k). Counting the 127mm ones on Amagi, it has an on-paper advantage, but that dispersion simply kills it completely.

 

Any way I look at it, Massa is still the better secondary boat ....

Your analysis is just biased and you did no actual testing or looked up on how secondaries are performing currently while i did this analysis with actual testing and comparing stats of ships secondaries after rework, while amagi 127mm has really bad aim now its not non existent and it has around 15% hitrate just like all secondary with no improved dispersion after the rework.

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The biggest problem with the secondaries are their (effective) range. Also, unless there is a target spotted in that range, there's nothing to fire at, in which case all the equipment and points used on the secondary build are not as idle, but actually away from something else that could be put to good use.

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45 minutes ago, leonport said:

32mm plating is only vulnerable to he spam that comes from cruisers

Speaking of secondaries, 32 mm plating is also vulnerable to:

 

- all secondaries on Gneisenau, Odin, Aegir, Siegfried and GK

- some secondaries on Scharnhorst, Bismarck, Tirpitz, Pommern and FdG, all of them if they have IFHE

- IFHE Shikishima (in theory)

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25 minutes ago, leonport said:

For the torps part if you fear people ramming you you are probably a bad player(no offense)

:fish_palm:

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The range buff imo does not save secondaries builds from that awful dispersion that high tier secondaries now have.

There might be some ships, like Amagi or Kii that have better secondaries than before, but something better than absolute crap is not necessarily good.

I used to play these builds because of the fun and also the deterrence to yolo'ing DDs, among other reasons.

It's not fun now it's frustrating as they hit nothing,  and if your hit ratio is so bad, how can you still be a deterrence to rushing DDs?

Secondaries suck now, but does it affect WG money earnings? No. Will they buff them? Probably not.

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32 minutes ago, tocqueville8 said:

Speaking of secondaries, 32 mm plating is also vulnerable to:

 

- all secondaries on Gneisenau, Odin, Aegir, Siegfried and GK

- some secondaries on Scharnhorst, Bismarck, Tirpitz, Pommern and FdG, all of them if they have IFHE

- IFHE Shikishima (in theory)

Good point, but the thing is cruisers are the real threat to your plating with their guns penning 32mm and having15km+ range and from good to godlike dpm+ fire starting but you just need to stay out of the secondary range of these secondaries if you do not want them to hurt you but if you get caught off guard by them its not like they gonna melt you with their accuracy,they just gonna do more dmg to you then they deal dmg to something that has better armor

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Just now, leonport said:

but the thing is cruisers are the real threat to your plating

I thought the topic was about who had the better secondaries.

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4 minutes ago, elblancogringo said:

The range buff imo does not save secondaries builds from that awful dispersion that high tier secondaries now have.

There might be some ships, like Amagi or Kii that have better secondaries than before, but something better than absolute crap is not necessarily good.

I used to play these builds because of the fun and also the deterrence to yolo'ing DDs, among other reasons.

It's not fun now it's frustrating as they hit nothing,  and if your hit ratio is so bad, how can you still be a deterrence to rushing DDs?

Secondaries suck now, but does it affect WG money earnings? No. Will they buff them? Probably not.

Agreed, i think that secondary aim needs buff but what i wanted to say with this analysis is that these 2 ships have good secondaries and their real potential is still in sleeping phase(i mean that if wg buffs secondary dispersion then these secodnary builds will be actually very good)

Secondaries do suck now overall but i think wg will address this issue if they see people buy less secondary ships or a lot of people who played mainly secondary ships start to leave the game because they don't like new secondaries

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