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Camperdown

Unhealthy T10 meta

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For a long time I have been avoiding T10 because of the unattractive gameplay and punishing economics. But now ranked is offering some of the more attractive gameplay (imo), I have started to think a bit more about T10. My thoughts before were: hellhole, avoid.

I have started playing Daring in ranked, and after a bit of getting used to T10 opposition and learning about the ships I am doing reasonably well. Still, I don't like playing Daring in randoms, and I asked myself why.

 

So, I will briefly summarise my thoughts on this in the hope that other, and sometimes more experienced T10 players can add.

 

The key issues at T10 are imo:

- 18" and over overmatch. Too many BBs in T10 have 18" guns or more, which makes cruiser life miserable as they can be blapped from the other side of the map. Deadeye is oc making this worse.

- Too may radar cruisers making DD life miserable. This oc combined with op T10 CVs and RU balanz cruisers.

- Too many inexperienced players buying T10 ships when they don't even understand the basics of the game. This makes the first two issues much worse, because now small mistakes will send them back to port early. As a result, many of them play BBs or CVs, as they die like flies playing DD or cruisers. And many adopt a camping playing style, as otherwise they won't make it to the second half of the game. 

- As a result you have a camping meta, and many stomps, as having a few more patatos on your team quickly destabilises a battle.

 

Combine this with harsh economics, and pronto you have a hellhole. WG has created this on purpose for financial gains or let it happen because they don't understand their own game.

 

Wadayazink? Is this a good summary, or did I miss something?

 

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T10 has become the cesspool of WOWS. 

 

Full to the brim with clueless players. If you wanna have fun, move down a few tiers and save silver. 

 

Most of the top clan players have moved down the tiers as its got that bad. 

 

There are too many issues of WG own making to be sorted now, so it is what it is.

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9 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

Combine this with harsh economics, and pronto you have a hellhole. WG has created this on purpose for financial gains or let it happen because they don't understand their own game.

The economics are not harsh enough, otherwise bad players would be much rarer in high Tiers, since they would be forced to play mid Tiers to get credits.

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16 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

This oc combined with op T10 CVs and RU balanz cruisers.

Are there actually dd players that unironically consider soviet radar cruisers a bigger threat than the US ones?

 

 

Pick one:

16 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

Too many inexperienced players buying T10 ships when they don't even understand the basics of the game. This makes the first two issues much worse, because now small mistakes will send them back to port early. As a result, many of them play BBs or CVs, as they die like flies playing DD or cruisers. And many adopt a camping playing style, as otherwise they won't make it to the second half of the game. 

 

16 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

Combine this with harsh economics, and pronto you have a hellhole. WG has created this on purpose for financial gains or let it happen because they don't understand their own game.

 

High tier economy is quite often too soft. What do you think enables all of those players to keep playing at top tiers?

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Vor 10 Minuten, ColonelPete sagte:

The economics are not harsh enough, otherwise bad players would be much rarer in high Tiers, since they would be forced to play mid Tiers to get credits.

But you can buy credits with money, can't you?

Incompetent players who want to partake in top tiers. Buying premiums and credits. WG loves it, I bet.

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11 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

The economics are not harsh enough, otherwise bad players would be much rarer in high Tiers, since they would be forced to play mid Tiers to get credits.

I think WG balances it so that patatos can just manage IF they buy premium, gold and silver :cap_hmm:

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8 minutes ago, SV_Kompresor said:

Are there actually dd players that unironically consider soviet radar cruisers a bigger threat than the US ones?

No, but they have a broader unhealthy effect on the meta because they can bow camp and thus patatos play them as they can survive a bit longer in them.

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4 minutes ago, MementoMori_6030 said:

But you can buy credits with money, can't you?

Incompetent players who want to partake in top tiers. Buying premiums and credits. WG loves it, I bet.

Yes, you can, but it would still redcuce the numbers. Just remember how it was in the past and you could buy credits from day one.

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Just now, Camperdown said:

No, but they have a broader unhealthy effect on the meta because they can bow camp and thus patatos play them as they can survive a bit longer in them.

Honestly? I wish wg added a dd line with high survivability but low overall damage output. That way, potato dds would survive much longer and not create snowballs.

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Your observations are on point. Everything about the current state of the cess game was already discussed so I will just add my recent few days.

 

I finished the re-grind of Mino yesterday. Every single game there was one DD afk, two or so BBs entered the game only after two minutes and some shot without even leaving the spawn. In my last Neptune-game I sunk all four enemy destroyers, took two caps solo and we still lost. WR with Neptune fell from 54 > 52% .

After that I even lost with Mino, but somehow got the RB-points and left high-tiers immediately. That was a sad day.

Spoiler

well.jpg.53514353e31d06be7c004c457471c239.jpg

 

On Friday I had refreshing breaks into lower tiers to do Naval Battles and I think that´s where I will goof around for the next days.

Spoiler

966954381_navbat.thumb.jpg.cf783fe5689a1f7adb9effaf670575c3.jpg

At lower tiers people charge in, have brawls and fun instead of bought incompetence, ruski magik radar, the flying not-be-spoken-of and I-exchanged-my-brain-and-engines-for-DeadEye.

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Vor 2 Minuten, ColonelPete sagte:

Yes, you can, but it would still redcuce the numbers. Just remember how it was in the past and you could buy credits from day one.

They could just buy a bot program and let it run T6 all night long to earn the credits they need to fail with their T10 during the day. :Smile_veryhappy:

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11 minutes ago, SV_Kompresor said:

Are there actually dd players that unironically consider soviet radar cruisers a bigger threat than the US ones?

Ofc they are the bigger threat. 12km radar means you have to stay outside of your own main battery range and for most DDs also outside of your torpedo range. If you fail to do so you eat almost guaranteed damage because of the excessive shell velocity but at the same time you need to bait the radar to get a window to cap and ofc you need to know when the radar was active so you know if there's a window and how long it will last. Soviet stealth radar (like Chapayev has) is even worse and all of these are dwarfed by CVs. No limited action time, no cooldown, just unending waves of planes.

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20 minutes ago, SV_Kompresor said:

Are there actually dd players that unironically consider soviet radar cruisers a bigger threat than the US ones?

Depends on the DD I play, it can be seen that way. Even if the short radar does not get me killed, it tells the enemy where I am, which kills the surprise-moment of sneaky torpedo-focused DDs. Sneaking around for minutes and then - BLIP - open to everyone. My pray (BB) starts leaving the area, my predators (cruisers) come for me. Even if the radar would only last one second; the surprise is gone, I lost my advantage.

And on many maps it is easy to cover two caps with 12km radar at the same time.

 

10 minutes ago, SV_Kompresor said:

I wish wg added a dd line with high survivability but low overall damage output. That way, potato dds would survive much longer and not create snowballs.

There are lines with high survivability and high damage output. Recently they even got buffed by DeadEye.

Problem is: it´s not DDs.

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47 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

For a long time I have been avoiding T10 because of the unattractive gameplay and punishing economics. But now ranked is offering some of the more attractive gameplay (imo), I have started to think a bit more about T10. My thoughts before were: hellhole, avoid.

I have started playing Daring in ranked, and after a bit of getting used to T10 opposition and learning about the ships I am doing reasonably well. Still, I don't like playing Daring in randoms, and I asked myself why.

 

So, I will briefly summarise my thoughts on this in the hope that other, and sometimes more experienced T10 players can add.

 

The key issues at T10 are imo:

- 18" and over overmatch. Too many BBs in T10 have 18" guns or more, which makes cruiser life miserable as they can be blapped from the other side of the map. Deadeye is oc making this worse.

- Too may radar cruisers making DD life miserable. This oc combined with op T10 CVs and RU balanz cruisers.

- Too many inexperienced players buying T10 ships when they don't even understand the basics of the game. This makes the first two issues much worse, because now small mistakes will send them back to port early. As a result, many of them play BBs or CVs, as they die like flies playing DD or cruisers. And many adopt a camping playing style, as otherwise they won't make it to the second half of the game. 

- As a result you have a camping meta, and many stomps, as having a few more patatos on your team quickly destabilises a battle.

 

Combine this with harsh economics, and pronto you have a hellhole. WG has created this on purpose for financial gains or let it happen because they don't understand their own game.

 

Wadayazink? Is this a good summary, or did I miss something?

 

I partially agree, but 2 Points are imho wrong: 

 

1. There are no harsh economics. Or do you mean they are too lax? If failing in a T10 battle would mean a noticable loss in credits you wouldnt see that Tier populated with tons of Potatoes.Credit-loss should have been a balacing factor at T10. But it truly isnt. Factor in Premium T9s which everyone can get (Coal-JB i.e.) and you can gain about 1 Mio Creds in a good game. How long can you full potato in T10 for that? 5-6 Battles? 

 

2. Radars are a non-issue / mild inconvenience for experienced DDs, since those guys know the regular spots where radar cruisers sit and they also know which ships have radar with what range (and ofc they do look at the reds lineup in the pre-battlescreen).

The real problem here are the clueless DDs, which tend to die fast while looking suprised.  

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2 minutes ago, Prophecy82 said:

2. Radar are a non-issue / mild inconvenience for experienced DDs, since those guys know the regular spots where radar cruisers sit and they also know which ships have radar with what range.

The real problem here are the clueless DDs, which tend to die fast while looking suprised.  

To be fair the amount of DD players that can bait out a radar, cap and survive is insanely low. Just because there are ways to play around it doesn't mean it's a good game mechanic.

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3 minutes ago, Stormhawk_V said:

To be fair the amount of DD players that can bait out a radar, cap and survive is insanely low. Just because there are ways to play around it doesn't mean it's a good game mechanic.

 

Do we really need this game to dumb-down even more? 

Yes, radar-baiting is a skill that needs to be learned/shown to players. But seriously: Reversing in a cap shouldnt be that hard to learn....

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Every warships match I have ever participated in :

-Our DDs died, we lost, lets turn around and start kiting to at least farm some damage while we lose.
-The enemy DDs died, we won, lets push hard to get some damage done before the game ends.

I don't see a difference between tier 6 or tier 10.

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4 minutes ago, Stormhawk_V said:

To be fair the amount of DD players that can bait out a radar, cap and survive is insanely low. Just because there are ways to play around it doesn't mean it's a good game mechanic.

 

Without radar

- Bad DD players still die, because they die to everything. They die by spotting themself on a BB for gods sake :cap_fainting:

- Good DD players become stronger

- Thus, roflstomps would increase even more

 

People make it out to be, that good players can play around radar as if its a non-issue. That is actually not true. While you can play around radar, that also means you have to play differently. If there is no radar, you can just wipe the floor with the enemies because the only thing that matters is your concealment range. You can just take a risky approach and torp the enemies broadside. Contrary to having radar ships sitting at islands. You never know when they will pop radar (bad radar Cruiser players are extremely erratic btw) so if you choose to make an aggressive approach, the moskva behind 2 islands might think its a good time to radar and suddenly you get shot at by half the enemy fleet. If there is no radar, then that threat doesnt exist in the first place.

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Just now, Prophecy82 said:

Do we really need this game to dumb-down even more? 

Yes, radar-baiting is a skill that needs to be learned/shown to players. but seriously: Reversing in a cap shouldnt be that hard to learn....

Dumb as in sitting behind an island and pressing a button that ruins every DDs concealment within 12km? Dumb as in pressing said button the moment you get spotted and having a DD caught 1,5km deep in your radar range? Radar is a great example of a dumbed down game mechanic.

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6 minutes ago, Stormhawk_V said:

Dumb as in pressing said button the moment you get spotted and having a DD caught 1,5km deep in your radar range?

 

Which is exactly 1 ship which can do that :cap_popcorn:

6 minutes ago, Stormhawk_V said:

Dumb as in sitting behind an island and pressing a button that ruins every DDs concealment within 12km?

How does that matter? Since we already established that the Cruiser is parked behind an island, which means he cant shoot you. Now if you position yourself at an island aswell, noone can shoot you! Marvelous, isnt it?

Islands must be the dumbest thing this game has to offer, they make shooting at ships impossible :cap_yes:

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15 minutes ago, Stormhawk_V said:

Dumb as in sitting behind an island and pressing a button that ruins every DDs concealment within 12km? Dumb as in pressing said button the moment you get spotted and having a DD caught 1,5km deep in your radar range? Radar is a great example of a dumbed down game mechanic.

 

 

a) its not as worse as CV-spotting since that is instant with no delay. 

b) If the DD was caught 1,5 km in radar range he knew  there was a Radar cruiser (except Mino maybe) and didnt act accordingly or look at @DFens_666 statement.

c) Without radar good DDs would become waaaaay to opressive, I mean you see how BBs are running when they know there is a DD lurking next to them. 

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Like it or not, if we look at the reasons for the camping meta excessive radar ranges/durations are part of the problem just like proliferation of overmatch, CVs, stupidly fast torps... and these things will all persist even after getting rid of Dead Eye.

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Just now, Stormhawk_V said:

Like it or not, if we look at the reasons for the camping meta excessive radar ranges/durations are part of the problem just like proliferation of overmatch, CVs, stupidly fast torps... and these things will all persist even after getting rid of Dead Eye.

 

So everyone plays their own part anyway... removal of radar would change nothing, except for the few good DD players who can now rape the enemy team, assuming there is also no CV in the game.

Why move up as a Cruiser? And certainly BBs would never move up at all. The average BB players answer as to why he camps 20km in the back is "because i have range". so the only way to get rid of BBs camping is to lower their range.

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4 minutes ago, Stormhawk_V said:

Like it or not, if we look at the reasons for the camping meta excessive radar ranges/durations are part of the problem just like proliferation of overmatch, CVs, stupidly fast torps... and these things will all persist even after getting rid of Dead Eye.

The camping-meta exists for years. It just got worse due to Captain-Rework. Dont forget the "lighthouse-builds" on cruisers, which give you insane DPM but forces you to stay in the back. Or the stupidity that is "fearless brawler" which encourages Gunboats to stay away from caps, too. 

 

It is definitely noticable that the Reworks (CV and Captain) made the camping meta worse. But still its not the fault of Radars. Except Mino, Edinburgh and Tchappy there are no stealth-radar-Cruisers! And what do these ships have in common? They are all one-shot-victims. 

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T10 has an incredible series of problems...

 

-- the CVs make the game suck even worse than at other tiers

-- there are numerous broken ships that make the game frustrating and unfun, all the high ROF smoke spammers, the broken Russian BBs, Thunderer, Petra, Stalingrad, etc.

-- the maps run from bad to utter crap. Shatter is by far the worst map in the game, Sea of (Mis)Fortune hardly less stupid, Loop is awful. We need new maps!

-- the games are always over early. In the low tiers good play by a div can recover from being down two ships, but at T10 once a team falls two ships behind the match is usually over. And that happens early quite often.

-- offense vastly outruns defense, meaning that ships are quickly destroyed once exposed and cannot push.

-- BBs have far too much range and gunpower. The more recent BBs have totally powercreeped the earlier ones -- Montana feels like a quaint relic of a bygone age, and no matter what ship I am in I view GKs as food.

-- the devs are obsessed with T10 and so we see it in competitive far too often. 


I no longer play T10 randoms. If one is in search of fun games that will be tight and recoverable even when you're down a couple of ships, T5-7 produce much better matches and the ships a better mix of capabilities and vulnerabilites.

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