Brawls in 0.10.1: The Next Step

[YabbaCoe]

Před 18 hodinami Trench4nt řekl/a:

 

Well, let me clarify this because I am very grateful for your fast feedback.

 

1. I am a somewhat experienced player, i.e. I can judge the individual strength of ships and their weaknesses.

2. And I really like this game mode anyway and I will give positive feedback when I am asked for it in the game (the likert scale that sometimes pops up).

 

Yes, there are some ships that might be very suitable for this mode, but this means that you can at least counter react to them. Even against an Odin or Le Fantasque, you have chances to win, when you outplay them or counter their (little) mistakes.

But with a carrier... he just attacks you constantly while you are on the move to the cap. You can do nothing against him. As you now, there does not really exist a ship with descend anti air that can prevent at least the number of attacks. Hence, you just die - always. Even when you reach a cap, you cannot hide or win on time, because you also lose cap points.

 

It doesn't matter what kind of skill you have, what kind of ship you have. Only French DDs might destroy the carrier because they have the velocity advantage as long it is not a German carrier.

The only way to win is when the CV players makes a very big mistake - as always.

 

I did not attend the last 1vs1 season so I cannot say anything about it, but you do not need feedbag and look at the winrate instead? I cannot believe that the CV rate is usual.

Thank you for your insight and your experience in this format.

After reading all this, it would be interesting to see the results of this, as we gather all the data, also winrates etc.

 

Před 16 hodinami HawkEyes__ řekl/a:

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Před 16 hodinami Flatout_Testdriver řekl/a:

So please tell me what you can do with a BB against a CV ? I do want to know. 

Don't tell me dodge or play with your speed. It's a BB FFS.

All you can do it press priority. That is it. 

Well that's great fun. The CV you will never see. And capping, well if you are lucky you might get that far but only if the CV player sucks. Getting to the end of game, good luck.

 

As you are well aware the CV is not designed for a 1vs1, why would you otherwise allow max 2 cv's in a 12v12 ??? Yes pls tell we why there is a max number of cv's in a random game ??? Could it be because ...

 

There absolutely no fun in fighting a CV, so just don't take it out, it has no place in this. 

 

Can't even imagine CV vs CV, how stupid is that ?

 

 

 

 

Which is kinda interesting, that previous 1vs1 wasn't that bad in CV perception. Of course we had some negative comments about that, but not as bad as now, right on the start of this Brawl.

 

Před 1 hodinou Execute0rder66 řekl/a:

@YabbaCoe First of all, it is a great decision to add 1 vs 1 mode as games are quick and fun. The definition of fun will depend on the MM and map of course. You can win against a Lexington in Massa in the map Two Brothers but can lose to AVP in Tirpitz in the same map. There are some small maps and some bigger maps. In those small maps, sometimes the CV doesn't have enough time to sink a cruiser or a BB before they get both caps and time starts ticking but since entering to cap would be a direct suicide with CV while enemy ship is there, the only option remains to sink the cruiser or BB in the remaining time as points tick fast. It's not always doable. Same goes for surface ship classes. When a BB enters caps, what can you do with a cruiser other than hit and run? Nothing. Meanwhile a lucky BB shell will hit you and there goes 70% of your hp.

 

So, is including CVs to Brawls bad? No, because you can win against them *depending on the type of your ship, enemy CV and map. If you roll good dice (meaning MM RNG), you can win, if not, lose, simple. Also, this is not a competitive mode but rather 1 vs 1 fun mode. Hence, it is okay to include any class and even subs into this mode.

 

I understand that your point might be to monitor and retrieve class interaction data on 1 vs 1, however, the data you'd extract from this mode would not provide realistic info in most parameters as the map, location of caps, epicenter play important part to distort it.

 

This mode favors specifically some ships like Massa with good AA, fast heal reload consumable and long range secondaries, or certain cruisers with heal or fast firing ones like Mainz, but then again, it all comes down to the map and ships decided by MM.

 

Is the player factor important too? Yes, but in 1 vs 1 brawl, not as much as the ship type and map MM generates for you. In this brawl, I sank a sunicum player in GZ with my Saipan easy or won against a Lexington in my Hsiengyang. Yet, lost against a 47% WR player in their AVP while i was in my Tirpitz because there is nothing you can do against the AP bombs other than slalom which only works up to a point.

It is a fun mode. Could it be more fun? Always. Here is a hint; give better rewards, like nice camos with good bonuses (which would help many players as they are short on camos) or perma camos or a T3-4-5 ship in the end, or better amount of coal, or a badge.

 

Overall, thanks for adding this fun mode back which i think is good for the game.

Also thank you for this feedback. There are some ships, that are strong in this format, that is why on last 1vs1 most played ship was Tirpitz, even though it is not measured as strong ship in Random battle circumstances.

You are also correct, that it always can be more fun. We can definitely consider better rewards for that, especially signals of camos. We will see in future.

 

Yesterday I didn't have time to try that out, but starting today I will play, to get my personal experience as well

[clairpastis]

Le 05/03/2021 à 18:18, HMS_Kilinowski a dit :

 

So if it's not a Clan Brawl, what exactly is the measure of success? In the 1v1 Ranked Sprint you climbed up ranks to rank out. Does Clan Brawl in that format mean I earn points for my clan and we all together work our way up against increasingly better players? And if so, what is the goal for clanless players?

 

On a different note: My old notes show that back in the Ranked Sprint, I was pretty uniformly matched against BBs, cruisers and DDs. Bearing in mind the map selection, doesn't that again leave the players with only a handful of viable ships to choose from?

Wasn't that the lesson to be learnt from the last 1v1, that only a few ships stood a fighting chance against an unknown opponent? Wasn't it that for the rest of the ships the match pretty much decided the outcome, not the skill of the player? Iirc it was said back then to be a bit of an experiment. Wargaming wanted to know how ships are balanced against each other in an isolated environment. Since e.g. it's pretty obvious how well an Asashio will do against a cruiser, that experiment had it's boring aspects. So I wonder, what insights did Wargaming take away from that Ranked Sprint and inplement them how into this Brawl?

well I tried the brawl twice with my Asashio and twice I had to fight against a cruiser !!!

[_HomTanks_]

1 hour ago, YabbaCoe said:

After reading all this, it would be interesting to see the results of this, as we gather all the data, also winrates etc.

It'd be good to keep in mind that WR in this 1 vs 1 mode may not give you the best idea as there are some players who play this mode not necessarily to win but to grind their T8 ships or who test certain ships with different builds/captains for fine tuning or some playing from work/school at breaks where they can get distracted. I think, data should be categorized per maps/ship types/win-loss-draw.

 

Quote

We can definitely consider better rewards for that, especially signals of camos. We will see in future.

Thanks in advance!

[GoneFishingAgain]

1 hour ago, YabbaCoe said:

Which is kinda interesting, that previous 1vs1 wasn't that bad in CV perception. Of course we had some negative comments about that, but not as bad as now, right on the start of this Brawl.

You and the rest of WG must be living in a parallel universe, where reality isn't quite the same as your playerbase perceive it.

 

Instead of endless talk about  spreadsheets and stats, here is a dare for you:

 

Create "Random WITHOUT CV" game mode option and watch what happens.

CVs won't have to be re-balanced or reworked. The only problem may be that "Randoms WITH CV" will have a heavy bot population.

[YabbaCoe]

Před 13 minutami Execute0rder66 řekl/a:

It'd be good to keep in mind that WR in this 1 vs 1 mode may not give you the best idea as there are some players who play this mode not necessarily to win but to grind their T8 ships or who test certain ships with different builds/captains for fine tuning or some playing from work/school at breaks where they can get distracted. I think, data should be categorized per maps/ship types/win-loss-draw.

 

Thanks in advance!

Of course all those data are being categorized by plenty different filters, so we can see and analyze every single detail. So be sure, that those are caregorized by all types possible.

 

Před 5 minutami GoneFishingAgain řekl/a:

You and the rest of WG must be living in a parallel universe, where reality isn't quite the same as your playerbase perceive it.

 

Instead of endless talk about  spreadsheets and stats, here is a dare for you:

 

Create "Random WITHOUT CV" game mode option and watch what happens.

CVs won't have to be re-balanced or reworked. The only problem may be that "Randoms WITH CV" will have a heavy bot population.

I can assure you, that we are living in the same universe and on the same planet as you. I just mentioned, that players mentioned last time we had 1vs1 game mode from what I remember.

I don't see likely, that there will be something like Random without CV. You can participate in CBs now, if you don't wish to meet CV in your battles, as those are played on tier IX.

 

[HMS_Kilinowski]

2 hours ago, clairpastis said:

well I tried the brawl twice with my Asashio and twice I had to fight against a cruiser !!!

 

Yeah, you might want to rethink that approach. The last 1v1 Ranked Sprint produced a bit of a meme:

 

 

You would need a minimum of 36 battles, 72 battles with a 50% winrate to rank out. There was one player - no. 2 - who did not rank out after more than 400 battles. He played Asashio. "Not rank out" is a bit of an understatement. He remained at the starting rank - rank 10 - with 2 victories out of 468 battles. I guess we know now how many players are statistically afk, 2 out of 468. So, friendly advice: Don't pick Asashio.

[arquata2019_]

2 ore fa, YabbaCoe ha scritto:

Of course all those data are being categorized by plenty different filters, so we can see and analyze every single detail. So be sure, that those are caregorized by all types possible.

 

I can assure you, that we are living in the same universe and on the same planet as you. I just mentioned, that players mentioned last time we had 1vs1 game mode from what I remember.

I don't see likely, that there will be something like Random without CV. You can participate in CBs now, if you don't wish to meet CV in your battles, as those are played on tier IX.

 

What if you add an option "meet cvs" or a gamemode without cvs? that would be great.

[YabbaCoe]

Před 1 minutou arquata2019 řekl/a:

What if you add an option "meet cvs" or a gamemode without cvs? that would be great.

What? Like something, that would allow to pop tier higher or lower CV there?

[arquata2019_]

11 minuti fa, YabbaCoe ha scritto:

What? Like something, that would allow to pop tier higher or lower CV there?

no, what i mean is that we could have an option to not have them in matches.

Because im sure that even if not everyone will like it (cv players) the majority of us will be happier to play matches without losing tons of hp the moment they get spotted.

What do you think about this?

[YabbaCoe]

Před 1 hodinou arquata2019 řekl/a:

no, what i mean is that we could have an option to not have them in matches.

Because im sure that even if not everyone will like it (cv players) the majority of us will be happier to play matches without losing tons of hp the moment they get spotted.

What do you think about this?

I don't see any CV-less mode or option coming in near future

[HMS_Kilinowski]

I gotta admit I like this game mode a lot.

 

It's so non-toxic. You play, you have a laugh. If you lose there is no team to blame, only yourself. If the enemy plays well against the odds, you compliment him.

 

I just did 9 min of ring around the rosie with a Talinn. At the end I typed "I'm a pacifist" and he expressed laughter.

 

The last season was interesting, since the stats were there. It was a good opportunity for every player to actually see how well he can do without a team. But then again, without stats there is less pressure and try-harding. Hell, I go into battles without flags, cause who cares? If there's a team, you feel bad if you detonate. Now it's just my personal risk.

 

I think I might even do a social thing some time and just launch into Brawl before taking a toilet break. Again, who cares? Doesn't hurt me and some potato gets a free win.

 

[YabbaCoe]

Před 17 hodinami HMS_Kilinowski řekl/a:

I gotta admit I like this game mode a lot.

 

It's so non-toxic. You play, you have a laugh. If you lose there is no team to blame, only yourself. If the enemy plays well against the odds, you compliment him.

 

I just did 9 min of ring around the rosie with a Talinn. At the end I typed "I'm a pacifist" and he expressed laughter.

 

The last season was interesting, since the stats were there. It was a good opportunity for every player to actually see how well he can do without a team. But then again, without stats there is less pressure and try-harding. Hell, I go into battles without flags, cause who cares? If there's a team, you feel bad if you detonate. Now it's just my personal risk.

 

I think I might even do a social thing some time and just launch into Brawl before taking a toilet break. Again, who cares? Doesn't hurt me and some potato gets a free win.

 

That is the spirit!

 

Those brawls are meant to be just like that. Special fun mode - or maybe testing ground for various engagement tactics, so after taking some experience, you can use them in other modes deciding what to do in similar situation.

 

And the best part is, everything is only up to you. You make a bad move, you are punished and you can only blame yourself.

Also, there are quite often threads complaining for bad teammates... well, this is atleast some solution for those.

 

It is a Brawl, so you can test and boost your brawling tactics

[Sunleader]

14 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

And the best part is, everything is only up to you. You make a bad move, you are punished and you can only blame yourself.

Also, there are quite often threads complaining for bad teammates... well, this is atleast some solution for those.

 

 

This so much to be Honest.

Its actually Great when I dont have to Rely on a Team.

 

 

That being Said. Having no Stats is always Nice.

You should have a Permanent Gamemode which doesnt have Stats.

It seems ALOT of the Players in the Brawl. Are far less Toxic and are much more ready to just have some Fun.

 

(And well. They dont drag anyone down by just having Fun. So thats also Great)

[MightyMac22]

Bottom line is this, CV in a random 1v1 mode is plain idiotic.

Mr Community manager can "Advise" me not to log out, i will do as the game dictates.

Wargaming are well aware that people do not like these stupid games where something so overpowered anyway can play.

It's only being done so that they can count each game played by a CV as a tick on the spreadsheet to skew the numbers and say that more people are playing CV.

[Maris_Piper]

Well WG your Dopey Brawl Matchmaking got to me this morning, I didn't Log out but told the DD they could have it, Then I looked and there's Flags as reward. No! Just No Teddy Out of Pram 

[YabbaCoe]

Před 2 hodinami Sunleader řekl/a:

 

This so much to be Honest.

Its actually Great when I dont have to Rely on a Team.

 

 

That being Said. Having no Stats is always Nice.

You should have a Permanent Gamemode which doesnt have Stats.

It seems ALOT of the Players in the Brawl. Are far less Toxic and are much more ready to just have some Fun.

 

(And well. They dont drag anyone down by just having Fun. So thats also Great)

Which is a good for a change. No stats, just fast and fun games. Actually it is counting up the number of battles played, but it seems, it is the only thing, that is counting there.

 

Před 16 minutami Maris_Piper řekl/a:

Well WG your Dopey Brawl Matchmaking got to me this morning, I didn't Log out but told the DD they could have it, Then I looked and there's Flags as reward. No! Just No Teddy Out of Pram 

Those flags are little something more, what you can get. Small motivation to also join this fun mode.

[GotterdammerungX]

I'm going to say on the face of it the Brawls looks a great idea, a one-on-one contest rather than the fleet or squadron battles we normally get but .... now having had a number of Brawls with CVs and only once managed to even get a glimpse of a carrier once I think there is a bit of an imbalance. The object of the Brawl is to surely to make it enjoyable and balanced enough so that either ship could win; there is little enjoyment in steaming as fast as you can to where you know the carrier is likely to be, whilst being bombed, rocketed and torpedoed and never getting a sight of her.  It could be that some ships just don't work and that there is a need to adjust the match-making best on you ship. Regretfully the prompt for feedback on the battle never pops up when you actually want it, but hopefully some improvements can be made to make the Brawl an equal fight

 

[Kosmonopo]

CVs have no place in this mode. they should only be allowed to play against each other. actually enforcing mirrored ship types all around would make the brawl much better 

[BrotherOrion]

Went into the mode.. played some Massa.. some Kagero.. didnt try the Odin.

Keept playing Kagero since matches are over fast.

With the Kagero i take the reload booster and rush my target down 60-70% chance that I can kill him if it isnt a Radar ship. Radars maul me on the way in and I die (on most maps). Everything other eats torps and dies.

I meet a CV? I write GG and stay in spawn, switch to my browser and read something interesting while waiting for the show to be over.

 

Still wondering which idea it was to take two brothers with epicenter mode into that brawl. Thats.. nah I wont write what I think about that. Surely the same person who thought it would be a good idea to allow CVs in a 1vs1.

 

Did it for the EXCP and the Coal.. not sure if I will play any other brawls.

 

Game modes getting a bit crowded with ranked, brawls and upcoming keybattles..

[HMS_Kilinowski]

I heard from a couple of guys they got reported in the 1v1. You cannot report people in Clan Battles for a good reason: You got direct control over who is on your team, cause he is in your clan and you don't get to report your opponent out of spite cause you lost. So I am wondering, why do people get to report their opponents in this 1v1?

 

11 hours ago, Kosmonopo said:

CVs have no place in this mode. they should only be allowed to play against each other. actually enforcing mirrored ship types all around would make the brawl much better 

 

Not sure about that. It's all a big gamble anyway. If a player takes a Kagero, he gambles for a BB or CV. In a way, if it is strictly mirrored MM, ships that are used cause they are universal, would not make sense anymore. However you put it, some ship will be at a disadvantage. So far in my Fantasque I have encountered 7 CVs and won against 6 of them. And they were mostly above average players. They are not my most feared opponent. There is no enemy team shooting you while being spotted, so you take only damage from air attacks and you can fully concentrate on outmaneuvering the attacks.

[Kosmonopo]

Quote

Not sure about that. It's all a big gamble anyway. If a player takes a Kagero, he gambles for a BB or CV. In a way, if it is strictly mirrored MM, ships that are used cause they are universal, would not make sense anymore. However you put it, some ship will be at a disadvantage. So far in my Fantasque I have encountered 7 CVs and won against 6 of them. And they were mostly above average players. They are not my most feared opponent. There is no enemy team shooting you while being spotted, so you take only damage from air attacks and you can fully concentrate on outmaneuvering the attacks.

Well alright gambling can be fun concept like your example with Kagero... but id rather have the worse outcome to be CA or gunboat DD in this case. Most picks be it DD, BB or CA have low to zero chance of winning against a CV in this mode. 

[_HomTanks_]

1 hour ago, Kosmonopo said:

Well alright gambling can be fun concept like your example with Kagero... but id rather have the worse outcome to be CA or gunboat DD in this case. Most picks be it DD, BB or CA have low to zero chance of winning against a CV in this mode. 

There are more ships in the game than a Kagero. Try others if you are having trouble with Kagero.

[Kosmonopo]

Quote

There are more ships in the game than a Kagero. Try others if you are having trouble with Kagero.

Im not playing Kagero. I was referring to the comment that came before. My point was that regardless of what you play you most likely will lose to a CV without having any chance of winning.

edit: incorrect quote

[HMS_Kilinowski]

6 hours ago, Kosmonopo said:

Well alright gambling can be fun concept like your example with Kagero... but id rather have the worse outcome to be CA or gunboat DD in this case. Most picks be it DD, BB or CA have low to zero chance of winning against a CV in this mode. 

I wasn't referring to your demand of removing CVs but to your idea of mirrored matchmaking. A ship can be superior to another class (a torpboat to a BB), while being inferior within its own class (torpboat vs. gunboat).

 

Also don't forget, this is a pure fun and derp mode. There is no pressure to perform. Most battles should be over in 3-6 min. At a 50% winrate you will need around 100 battles to collect all the rewards, if that is what you're going for. Since it is skill-based MM, winrates around 50% should be realistic for any skill level, meaning it will take the potato maybe 110 battles and the super-unicums maybe 90 battles. So the mode is not so much about measuring success, but about testing your skills in different environments. After Savage Battles I noticed my torp dodging and torping in dogfights had significantly improved. The game mode doesn't differ from when I go into training room with a clan mate to train certain moves, just it's so painful to get one of your clan mates to use an hour of his time for training while WG dumps one event after another on the community. Here you get a training opportunity AND on top of that you even get rewards.

I think it's an absolutely good thing that CVs are in there. I get to train my dodging skills against rocket planes. I don't train against potatoes, cause the MM gives me 55%+ players with notable clan tags.

Frankly, if you can get within torpedo range of a CV, in terms of skill, that is already a win, no matter what the result screen says. A CV player, if he is not too bright, may take a win as a success, but the good one know: If you can't kill a DD in 3-4 min, knowing his general location and direction, in an environment without blobs denying certain attack angles, you can't pad yourself on the shoulder and feel content with your skills. One can discuss Enterprise, since it's just too powerful in so many relevant aspects. But in general, take the chance for a free lab rat and practice the hell out of this game mode.

[Kosmonopo]

1 hour ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

I wasn't referring to your demand of removing CVs but to your idea of mirrored matchmaking. A ship can be superior to another class (a torpboat to a BB), while being inferior within its own class (torpboat vs. gunboat).

 

Also don't forget, this is a pure fun and derp mode. There is no pressure to perform. Most battles should be over in 3-6 min. At a 50% winrate you will need around 100 battles to collect all the rewards, if that is what you're going for. Since it is skill-based MM, winrates around 50% should be realistic for any skill level, meaning it will take the potato maybe 110 battles and the super-unicums maybe 90 battles. So the mode is not so much about measuring success, but about testing your skills in different environments. After Savage Battles I noticed my torp dodging and torping in dogfights had significantly improved. The game mode doesn't differ from when I go into training room with a clan mate to train certain moves, just it's so painful to get one of your clan mates to use an hour of his time for training while WG dumps one event after another on the community. Here you get a training opportunity AND on top of that you even get rewards.

I think it's an absolutely good thing that CVs are in there. I get to train my dodging skills against rocket planes. I don't train against potatoes, cause the MM gives me 55%+ players with notable clan tags.

Frankly, if you can get within torpedo range of a CV, in terms of skill, that is already a win, no matter what the result screen says. A CV player, if he is not too bright, may take a win as a success, but the good one know: If you can't kill a DD in 3-4 min, knowing his general location and direction, in an environment without blobs denying certain attack angles, you can't pad yourself on the shoulder and feel content with your skills. One can discuss Enterprise, since it's just too powerful in so many relevant aspects. But in general, take the chance for a free lab rat and practice the hell out of this game mode.

I will never agree to that its going to be fun or in any way satisfying "learning experience" to play against a CV in 1 vs 1. Being surface ship against another at disadvantage can be fun and useful to test your skills that I agree with 100%